Talk:Keith Hernandez
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[edit] Stats box
Can someone more wiki-proficient than I change that career stats box to a horizontal format, rather than the current white-void-producing vertical one? --66.185.85.70 15:11, 12 January 2006 (UTC) me
- ne'ermind 66.185.85.70 18:53, 20 January 2006 (UTC)me2
[edit] The Curse of Keith Hernandez
I think that this should be mentioned in the article. When Keith Hernandez was traded to the New York Mets after the 1983 season, Hernandez I guess felt betrayed by the Cardinals. A vengeful Hernandez wanted to to get the Cardinals back so badly, that he went as far as to read books about the accult and black magic.
What happens next is that when the Cardinals went to the World Series in 1985, the speedy Vince Coleman couldn't play in series because of a freak tarpoline accident. Then there was of course, umpire Don Denkinger's bad call in Game 6, Jack Clark and Darrell Porter's sloppy defense, and the Cardinals losing the game on a bloop single from bench warmer Dane Iorg.
In Game 7 (in which the Cardinals lost 11-0), the Cardinals, still fuming over the Denkinger incident the night before, pretty much throw in the towel before early on. You have pitcher John Tudor punching an electrical fan (with his throwing hand) after getting slaugtered by the Royals in the first three innings. You have the manager Whitey Herzog (for whom I think should be blamed first and foremost for the Cardinals' meltdown in Game 7) still so angry at Don Denkinger's (who's now the home plate umpire) bad call in Game 6, that ABC's cameras catches Herzog screaming at Denkinger from the dugout in Game 7. By the time that the Royals were up on the Cardinals 5-0, Herzog sends the volatile Joaquín Andújar to the mound to further his grudge against Denkinger. So naturally, Denkinger kicks Andujar (as well as Whitey Herzog) out of the game for aruging balls and strikes. After the game, Andujar throws an even greater temper tantrum than John Tudor by smashing a toliet in the Cardinals' clubhouse with a baseball bat.
To add insult to injury, the year after the St. Louis Cardinals lost the World Series, Keith Hernandez and the New York Mets win the World Series. In 1987, the Cardinals came back to the World Series only to lose it in seven games (just like in 1985) to a vastly inferior Minnesota Twins team, who were nothing without the help of the Metrodome.
In 1996, the Cardinals blew a 3-1 deficit against the Atlanta Braves in the National League Championship Series. That same year, Joe Torre, for whom the Cardinals fired as their manager the year before, won the World Series as the manager of the New York Yankees. The Cardinals came back to the NLCS two years later, only to lose to the New York Mets (the team that Keith Hernandez was traded to from the Cardinals).
In 2004, the Cardinals went to the World Series for the first time since 1987 only to get swept by the Boston Red Sox. The 2004 St. Louis Cardinals thus, carry the distinction of being aiding in the breaking of the Curse of the Bambino. Perhaps the most embarrassing moment for the Cardinals in that World Series was Jeff Suppan's poor base running at third base in Game 3. Jeff Suppan's number, 37, was the same number that Keith Hernandez wore while with the Cardinals.User:TMC1982
This article was marked for deletion back in June...it will be gone very soon
- fixed link to John Tudor (baseball player)
[edit] Sloppy Writing
"Hernandez is known to frequent Elaine's, New York City's famed Upper East Side night spot. It is not known if this has anything to do with his appearance on Seinfeld, as the restaurant has nothing to do with the Elaine Benes character." You've got to be kidding me. What does one thing have to do with the other? I'm deleting the second reference. --Chancemichaels 17:03, 25 April 2006 (UTC)Chancemichaels
- If he also frequented nightspots called, Jerry's, George's and Kramer's, then you might have something worth writing home about. Wahkeenah 22:58, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Criticism Section
I honestly don't understand what this section substantively adds to the article. The gist of it seems to be "because Hernandez lied about coke, he was called smarmy by this sportswriter." True enough, but so what? Hernandez' use of cocaine, his denials, his admission, his involvement in the 1985 trial and his subsequent kicking of the habit are all very important to a fully fleshed-out bio of him. But this section just seems like petty tabloid stuff, not a dispassionate, NPOV account in a trusted encyclopedia. The whole affair was well-documented. It shouldn't be too tough to put together a solid couple of paragraphs that present the facts with complete context. Veronique 00:10, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
- Well, I think it serves to illustrate the contempt that a good share of baseball fans (outside of New York City) held for this guy. He betrayed his Cardinals team with the divisiveness and performance-erosion of his drug usage, and lied about it publicly until he was finally compelled to testify, and then took the opportunity to blame his supplier for all his troubles. Please note the already-existing section about his straight-out-of-the-1950s stuff about a female employee in the dugout. Yeh, quite a guy, huh? Nope. He's a lowlife. Wahkeenah 00:20, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
- I see that you're a Mets fan, so that might tend to bias your opinion... just as I, as a midwesterner, though by no means a Cardinals fan, have a bias in the opposite direction. I recommend that you read the article about your heroes Dwight and Darryl, and see the inference that Hernandez was certainly not the kind of teammate those vulnerable guys needed as a role model. A few more Gary Carters on that team and a few less Keith Hernandez types might have won them more than just the one World Series, rather than their being underachievers. Wahkeenah 00:30, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
- All that stuff you mentioned should be in this bio. There should be no sugar-coating of history in wikipedia. Nor should there be hearsay or opinion. The story of his cocaine usage can be told via verifiable facts that stand on their own. That's the way this encyclopedia is supposed to be written. Veronique 01:23, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Disgusting Picture
There is a terrible picture placed on this site and it does not appear in the history or the editing of this article.
- There is no picture of Hernandez on this page. Wahkeenah 00:29, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Non-neutral POV on trade
After several disagreements with Cardinal management, Hernandez was traded to the Mets on June 15, 1983. The Cardinals received pitchers Neil Allen and Rick Ownbey in return. While this trade was possibly the best in Mets history (or, at least, before the acquisition of future Hall of Fame catcher Mike Piazza), it was a terrible one for the Cardinals, who did not win another World Series until 2006.
And that paragraph is so biased from a Mets fan's perspective that it isn't even funny. It's well-documented why the Cardinals made the trade, and they never regretted it, and weren't even really hurt by it, because they soon acquired Jack Clark to replace Hernandez, and Clark helped them win the pennant in 1985 and 1987--one more pennant than the Mets ever won with Keith Hernandez. In Whitey Herzog's autobiography, he said the team couldn't get anymore for Hernandez than they did, because everyone knew about his drug problems.
- You could alter, revise, or trash that statement. There is, in fact, a good chance it was written by a Mets fan. It has now been 21 years since the Mets won the Series. Since then, both the Cardinals and the Red Sox have won. The 1986 Mets are ancient history. Wahkeenah 17:00, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
- I did revise it. I just had to rant about it because revisionist history really annoys me. There was much more to this incident than meets the eye, and anyone who remembers baseball in 1983 knows that. Jsc1973 04:35, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
- Kudos. What I remember about that time is how much of jerk Hernandez was, how dishonest he was, how he scapgoated the coke dealer in order to avoid prison himself, and how his drug involvement undermined the Cardinals' efforts, to the point where Herzog had to dump this talented player. This stuff about a "Hernandez jinx" is somebody's fantasy. The Cardinals got in the Series in 1985 and 1987, and had the misfortune of losing Jack Clark at the wrong time in 1985, and of being beaten by teams with superior pitching, as happens sometimes. But the Cardinals were often contenders during that era as well as recently. A lot of things have to fall into place to win the whole thing. If you want to talk choke jobs, those Mets should have done a lot better than the one championship, but other druggies like Gooden and Strawberry let their fans down, just as Hernandez had done in St. Louis. (I would add this info to the article, but I think the points are already made, a little more calmly.) Wahkeenah 04:44, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
- I did revise it. I just had to rant about it because revisionist history really annoys me. There was much more to this incident than meets the eye, and anyone who remembers baseball in 1983 knows that. Jsc1973 04:35, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
The fact is true, though, that the trade was perhaps the best trade in Mets history. Not only was Hernandez a great pickup on the field, but he would go on to become the team's first captain in its history. I understand why St. Louis made the deal, but it was clearly a win for New York there. Pascack 19:14, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- It was a great trade for the Mets, since Hernandez cleaned up his act. It was also a good trade for the Cardinals, not because of the talent gained, but because it got rid of a malcontent at a time when Whitey was trying to remake the team. Hernandez, for all his talent, was expendable and was in fact hurting the team with his drug use and bad attitude. Both sides of the story need to be reported, otherwise this looks like a Sandberg-for-DeJesus or Ryan-for-Fregosi deal. And it's not. Jsc1973 04:01, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
- Good point, but I think the article reflects that. Also, I might be the only one to say that the Piazza deal wasn't all that great. After his first couple of campaigns with the Mets, he was relatively useless (injured, overpaid, playing first base and catcher with a defensive aptitude worthy of being laughed at by Jason Giambi). So perhaps all the POV stuff about the trade should go- any reader can glean that Mex was successful with the Mets, and all we really care about was what prompted the move. Zookman12 04:16, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Cardinal colors?
Should this be? I know he played more years in St. Louis, but he has been broadly associated with the Mets for the past 25 years. He was the Mets' first team captain after he left St. Louis on very bad circumstances and has since been referred to as a Met on Seinfeld and is now the team's main announcer. He remains a Mets icon but has few ties to the Cardinals anymore. Any thoughts? Gmh224 19:34, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree, he's a Met icon. Mghabmw 22:35, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
The same thing can be said about Reggie Jackson, who is affiliated with the Yankees. Some people think the contrary, especially after leaving Oakland in bad terms. Mghabmw 22:40, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
Reggie did not leave Oakland on bad terms. His bad terms stemmed from being fired as hitting coach in 1991 but he has since mended fences with the organization. Jjj222 23:08, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Googie, this is one where you are actually the vandal. I stopped screwing with debatable team colors some time ago (I even left your Gary Carter change to the Expos). However, this one is not debatable. Hernandez left St. Louis on awful terms and has more or less been affiliated with the Mets organization for the past 25 years. Hernandez was the key figure who led the Mets out of last place and to the 1986 title, and was named the first team captain in franchise history. He was immortalized as a Met on Seinfeld, he is a Mets Hall of Famer, and he currently works for the team as an announcer. Give me a break here, man. This is a no-brainer. Jjj222 17:26, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
- And after some thinking about it, I reverted the edit back to the Mets colors. I have no quarrel with you whatsoever as long as you make legitimate edits, and leave my work alone. I have no problem with people replacing my photos - Albert Pujols is my favorite active player, and someone took a photo of his better than the one I took, and replaced mine, and that's fine. It's not my article. You know my issue, and there is no need to repeat it. You have a point here about Hernandez, and I'll concede that point to you. You seem to be on the up and up now, and have taken a fair amount of abuse from me, so I'll knock it off. By the way, and not that this really matters, but even though I've taken a lot of Yankees pictures, I'm really a Mets sympathizer. The Mets spring train in a place too far from my home. Googie man 19:21, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
If you are willing to call a truce, then I'd like to start over as well. Jjj222 20:02, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
- Sounds good to me. Googie man 22:54, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
- I think most people would remember Keith Hernandez as a member of the New York Mets. He had a long run with the Cardinals, but because of the way he left, his key role in the Mets' success and his post-career affiliations, you tend to think of him as a Met. Gary Carter is a tougher case, but he was an Expo for all but two of his great seasons and was in Montreal much longer than in New York. Reggie is like Dennis Eckersley. He was a star with more than one team, but his most brilliant moments were clearly with the team on his Hall of Fame plaque. Jsc1973 19:46, 12 Nov 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.251.200.217 (talk)
