Talk:Kechewaishke

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[edit] Chief Buffalo of Lake Superior

Discussion moved to Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Indigenous_peoples_of_North_America/Anishinaabe#Chief_Buffalo_of_Lake_Superior. Discussion back from Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Indigenous_peoples_of_North_America/Anishinaabe#Chief_Buffalo_of_Lake_Superior. 2/6/2008

I'm wondering if perhaps the article might be strenghtened by changing the title to: "Chief Buffalo of Lake Superior." That instantly identifies which Buffalo we're talking about, as there were others, including one on the lower St. Croix River around the same time period who is sometimes confused with Buffalo of Lake Superior. Also, adding Lake Superior to the article title also, IMO, gives him power and additional status. Migwitch! Herbwag (talk) 16:22, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Maybe "Chief Buffalo" ought to instead be a disambiguation page and the current article moved to either the title you have suggested or to "Chief Buffalo (La Pointe Band)" to distinguish him from "Chief Buffalo (St. Croix Band)" or any number Chief Buffaloes who are/were out there. CJLippert (talk) 17:02, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I'm not familiar enough with Wiki to understand very well those various catagories of change you mentioned. But I do feel that "Chief Buffalo of Lake Superior" is more easily understood by readers than "La Pointe Band" although that would also serve the purpose. Because La Pointe is an obscure term, perhaps: "Chief Buffalo (La Pointe Band of Lake Superior)" would work, unless that is too long. Herbwag (talk) 18:58, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Let's pose this to the larger WP:IPNA/Nish or to the even larger WP:IPNA and see what others think. CJLippert (talk) 23:12, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

On the naming issue, I can't say I'm a fan of Chief Buffalo of Lake Superior (sounds like a European title of nobility or that he was Chief of the Lake or something), or Chief Buffalo (La Pointe). Maybe using Chief Buffalo as a disambig and then using their Ojibwe names is a solution since La Pointe Buffalo's doesn't mean Buffalo in the language. Leo1410 (talk) 23:37, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Images of Buffalo

Good idea. I also notice that at the U.S. Senate webpage (the URL of which is now posted in the Buffalo article notes), there are some images of the sculpture of the great Lake Superior chief. If copyright is not a problem (and being govt. it shouldn't be a problem, right?), it might be good to include an image of Bizhiki in the article. But I still have to learn how to do that. Herbwag (talk) 15:41, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

If the image comes from an official US government page, yes, it would be free of copyright. The best place to put it is not at en.wikipedia but rather at Wikicommons, and then all projects could access the image. This way, if someone wants to translate the article into, say French or Spanish, they don't have to do anything extra to imbed the image into the article. CJLippert (talk) 16:07, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Whew! I can see that I have a LOT to learn! Herbwag (talk) 16:38, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Images were uploaded to the Wikimedia Commons and then put into the articles. CJLippert (talk) 06:38, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

The addition of images is very nice. Can we get a citation added to identify the source for the first image by King? I don't think that I've seen it before and would like to further investigate that work.

If you click on the image, you will find the citation on its page. That particular lithograph is Plate number 118 and is found in Volume II published in 1843. I don't know if reprints have been made of this set, or if an online version is available. If either are, the reprint will most definitely have an ISBN, or at the very minimum, a LOC number. CJLippert (talk) 17:50, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I looked into the images, and the bust is definately not Chief Buffalo from La Pointe (who went to D.C. in 1852 not 1855 and did not go with Flat Mouth). I am almost certain that image is of the Leech Lake Bezheekee. The other image looks more like it could be Gichi-Weshki. The problem seems to be that just about every written source (government, museum, historical society, author, etc.) except the chronicles of people who knew Gichi-Weshki personally (Armstrong, Warren, Schoolcraft, Kohl) automatically attributes information about any of the Chief Buffaloes to Gichi-Weshki, and this has been a problem from the mid 1800s to today, and will have to be carefully considered when expanding this article.

As for the naming, unless anyone from Leech Lake or St. Croix objects, I think "Chief Buffalo" should move to either Great Buffalo or Gichi-weshki both of which already redirect to the article. Chief Buffalo can then redirect to a disambiguation or to the article with a disclaimer at the top saying something like:

Chief Buffalo redirects here. For the Ojibwe Chief from Leech Lake, see Bezheekee.

Leo1410 (talk) 23:10, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Buffalo's doodem

Something else about the Chief Buffalo article is that it doesn't mention his clan or totem. Is that because sources vary? In my endnotes to a translation that I'm working on (that contains a moving description of Bizhiki), I noted that some sources say he belonged to the Loon clan, but others say Crane clam. I have to look further into this as it was left hanging in 2006; perhaps it has been resolved. Either way, the clan or totem seems to be a significant fact about this Ojibwe chief that could be added to the article. Herbwag (talk) 18:24, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Lack of doodem mentioning is a bit odd, now that you'd pointed that out. The documents I have make no mention of clan at all. However, the famous Sandy Lake letter shows a crane to indicate him, yet some other sources I have seen say he was a maang-doodem. CJLippert (talk) 19:08, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

First off, I'm really glad to see all the attention this article is getting. A lot of the issues brought up are ones that have confused me a lot also. As the author of this article, I can say that it was intended to be about the Chief Buffalo who lived on La Pointe and travelled to Washington. Warren has a pretty lengthy passage about how the Cranes (in his time led by Tawagane) were the hereditary chiefs of La Pointe but by the 19th century, the Loons led by Buffalo were the main spokesmen. By Warren's time the Cranes were pretty tied in with the Cadotte family (Warren being one of them), and I have never seen anything to suggest Buffalo and Cadotte were closely related, and those two are the two titans of local history where I come from. Now, it seems to me Buffalo was related to Waubojeeg and a member of the family nicknamed Weshkey, and I have seen some sources suggesting he was the son of Waubojeeg. However, I trust the sources saying he was the son of Crow's Meat more. Now, it is clear that there was more than one Chief Buffalo alive among the Southwestern Ojibwe in the 19th century. This caused confusion in those days as well. In Chief Buffalo's (the one from La Pointe) dictated letter to the president in 1851, he starts off declaring that he is not the Buffalo who sent a previous message (perhaps referring to the pictograph petition?). Sources today confuse the Buffalos all the time. Trying to sort out all the conflicting accounts would be worthwhile. I don't have a lot of time to devote to wikipedia, but I'll put it toward the top of the list. The only thing I can say for sure is that one Chief Buffalo (the one from La Pointe) is the major figure in local history of Northern Wisconsin, and sources on him are not hard to find. What's hard is trying to sort out what has been confused in the last 150+ years of scholarship. If you go to wisconsinhistory.org and search Chief Buffalo there is a lot of info, but suprise! it's conflicting.

The confusion over Chief Buffalo's doodem needs resolution and his identity clarified. At the wiki "doodem" page (which links to this article), it says Buffalo was of the Loon clan, but also that Loon and Crane were closely associated. PS: I tried to better identify him by location in the opening paragraph. Doodem Herbwag (talk) 16:47, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Tried to figure out this doodem thing as it has been bothering me. I wish I had a copy of Warren--I can't find one online, but I'm almost certain he said Gichi-Weshki was Loon clan. The petition and what I found from GLIFWC, which I would consider very reliable say Crane. Did Schoolcraft say that petition came from Gichi-Weshki? I thought it came from over by Lac Courte Oreilles or St. Croix. Is it possible that Crane is the other Buffalo? Alternatively, I have read that while the Loons rose to prominence during the fur trade, it was the Cranes who were still the hereditary chiefs of La Pointe. Could the petition simply be recognizing the position of the Cranes?

Leo1410 (talk) 23:45, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Looked it up. The Crane in that image, according to Schoolcraft who collected it, represents Oshcabawis, a chief from the Wisconsin River who went to D.C. in 1849. I would question (though not totally disregard) all the sources claiming that particular image relates to the Sandy Lake Tragedy. It seems it was created the year before the tragedy. I'm not saying Warren and Schoolcraft are to be believed 100%, all we really need is to know the doodem of Gichi-Weshki's many direct male descendants, but W&S were documenting these events as they happened. Leo1410 (talk) 23:59, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Warren's history of the Ojibways is now on Google Books and I remembered correctly. Warren says on page 48, and in other places that Kechewaishke (he writes Ke-che-waish-keenh) was the leader of the Loon clan. Be-she-ke is listed as a war chief at Leech Lake and a member of the Bear clan on page 49. On page 335, Buffalo a chief of the St. Croix band is also listed as Bear clan. In light of this and the likelihood that the crane in the pictograph is Oshcabawis and not Kechewaiske, I am changing the doodem back to Loon for the time being. Leo1410 (talk) 19:53, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

miigwech. You've beat me to it. CJLippert (talk) 09:07, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 3 Chief Buffalos? (or more)

In my count, there are currently 3 Chief Buffalos: Lake Superior, St. Croix and Leech Lake. Since Minnesota Historical Society have a photograph of Chief Buffalo of Leech Lake and the person in that photograph looks nothing like either the bust or the lithograph, I wonder if the descendents of Chief Buffalo of the Loon Clan is getting their Chief Buffalo ancestor mixed up with the Chief Buffalo of the Crane Clan. I was looking through Schoolcraft to see if he makes mention of what clan Buffalo of St. Croix was, but he doesn't... just that he was found at a village at the mouth of the Snake River. The St. Croix's Buffalo, together with Gaa-bimabi ("Wet mouth"/He that sits to the side) and Ayaabens(Little Buck), and Gaa-bimabi's son Shagobay ("Shák'pí"/Little Six) were signatories to the 1842 Treaty of La Pointe. CJLippert (talk) 06:38, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I think we are agreeing that Chief Buffalo page should become a disabmiguation and move the contents of the current page to new page with a different title. For this Chief Buffalo, Gichi-weshki or its recorded spellings would work, but that wouldn't quite be the case for the other two since both are most often recorded as "Bezheekee." We have a similar problem with Yellow Head where in Ojibwe, two of them are Ozaawindib and one is Ozaawandib (or all the phonetic variations of the two); of the two Ozaawindib, one was very significant in Minnesota history while the other was significant in Wisconsin history. Ozaawandib was important for Mille Lacs Band but was not as notable as the other two. CJLippert (talk) 18:45, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

That's why (to avoid confusion with other Buffaloes) I think that location and affiliation cues in the article title remain the most simple and effective way to identify him. (i.e.: La Pointe Band of Lake Superior) Herbwag (talk) 18:59, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Hmm. I think I found something to mix into the confusion. According to this page, the poster suggests there were the following Chief Buffalos: St. Croix (Dakota), St. Croix (Ojibwe), La Pointe (I), La Pointe (II), La Pointe (III) and Leech Lake. The doodems of these six are loon, crane and bear. I think I'm going to invite folks from the Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography to take a look at this discussion and provide us suggestions. CJLippert (talk) 19:26, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Wow, that's interesting! Here's another thought -- providing we are all talking about the same Chief Buffalo -- and I believe we are: the one who lived into his 90s and died at La Pointe in 1855. I have seen this Buffalo called/described as: "Great Chief Buffalo." Plus, when you consider it, his other given name apparently was "Gichi Weshki," so combining both names together as "Great Chief Buffalo" for an article title would seem to remain authentic to his names as well as a tribute to his outstanding achievments. Might that be an appropriate manner of identifying this great Ojibwe leader over and above the other Buffaloes? (PS: thanks for pointing out the source of the King image.)Herbwag (talk) 19:32, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

OK, I am from the Biography project but don't take that as meaning anything I say is authoritative, because it isn't. Generally, the rules to follow in this case are Wikipedia:Naming conventions and Wikipedia:Disambiguation. It seems that of the three Chief Buffalos being discussed, one is referenced far more often than the other two. If that is the case, then what might work best would be to place the individual who is best known at the "Chief Buffalo" page, with maybe a disambiguation at the top of the page to either the individual articles on the other two, or, if there wind up being more than two, a separate disambiguation page. That'd be the option I'd take, anyway. John Carter (talk) 19:54, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

It seems there is only one Leech Lake Buffalo, possibly two St. Croix Buffalos, and possibly three La Pointe Buffalos, of which only one of them is the Great Buffalo. Moving contents of the current article to Great Chief Buffalo is fine with me, freeing up the Chief Buffalo as a disambiguation. However, how are we going to resolve the two (or one) other Buffalo of La Pointe... "Lesser Chief Buffalo"? "Chief Buffalo (La Pointe)"?

As for the image, I agree the bust is not of Gichi-weshki because somewhere at wisconsinhistory.org, I did come across a photograph of Gichi-weshki and the man in the lithograph, if my memory serves me right, looks like the man in the photograph, but the bust does not. CJLippert (talk) 03:11, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

My thoughts exactly on the lithograph. For the La Pointe Buffalos, I think Roman numerals might work even though it then looks like European monarchy. Eventually, we should have have two articles called Tessouat, two called Biauswah, and two called Hole in the Day so it is an issue to resolve. My guess too is that the sons and grandsons of Gichi-weshki probably had Catholic names that they went by with Buffalo as the surname as in the case of Paul Buffalo, Henry Buffalo, and other more recent descendents, so if that's the case it shouldn't be hard to disambiguate.

Leo1410 (talk) 03:22, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Page moved to Kechewaishke. Now separating all the different redirects. CJLippert (talk) 04:07, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Did Kechewaishke travel to Washington a second time in 1855?

I was going to bring this up after thinking about it some more, because in looking at my primary and secondary sources, none others mention Great Buffalo going to Wash., D.C. in 1855, which was also the year of his death. If he had been sick for "months" like Morse (1855) states, what is the chance that he took such an arduous trip the previous winter at such an advanced age? Holzheuter does give some primary sources from early 1855 to back up his claims, but I don't have them to examine. I do note, however, that on the bronze copy of the bust (pictured in Holzhueter's article) the medal on this Buffalo reads: "Beeshekee the Buffalo, A Chippewa Warrior from the Sources of the Mississippi..." Notice it says "warrior" and not chief. Also, "sources of the Mississippi" is NOT Lake Superior. The Holzhueter article (cited) def. is saying, however, that it was Great Buffalo of La Pointe who went to Wash., D.C. in 1855. No mistake there. The U.S. Senate website says the same thing and I suspect other sources do as well, but I agree that it may be another case of mistaken identity. It might be good to explain this possible case of mistaken identity and better identify who made the 1852 & 1855 visits. Herbwag (talk) 19:46, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I think the evidence would suggest that it was the Leech Lake Buffalo who made the trip in 1855, and Holzheuter's comments about the bust not looking like a 95+ year-old man is because it is in fact a bust of a different person than Kechewaishke.Leo1410 (talk) 20:12, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Stubbed the article Beshekee about the Leech Lake chief and moved the image there. It's kind of embarassing to see all these authors and curators couldn't figure out that there might be another person named Buffalo. Leo1410 (talk) 08:42, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Found text of "Treaty With the Chippewa" concluded Feb. 22 1855. Aish-ke-bug-e-koshe (Flat Mouth) and Be-sheck-kee (Buffalo) are both listed as members of the Pillager (i.e. Leech Lake) and Lake Winnibegoshish bands. This treaty was with the Mississippi Chippewa. Kechewaiske's people, the Lake Superior Chippewa, concluded a similar treaty at La Pointe in 1854. Given that we know there was another Buffalo at Leech Lake, that Kechewaiske was probably on his death bed at the time, that neither Armstrong nor modern accounts by his descendants speak of a second trip, and the bust is of a younger man with a medal saying warrior from Mississippi, I think it's safe to say that both Holzheuter and the Senate are confusing the two Buffaloes. My guess it that one is wrongly citing the other. Leo1410 (talk) 19:37, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Kechewaishke or Bizhiki?

It would be interesting to know how Great Buffalo obtained two different names. Has that ever been explained? It would also be interesting to know when and who defined Kechewaishke as "great renewer." I see that "Gitchi waisky" is how he appeared on the Treaty of 1842. But it seems that he was more often known as Buffalo. Most sources give his name as Buffalo, i.e. "Bizhiki," or some form thereof. He appears at the Treaty of 1826 as "Peezhickee (or La Beuf)," the Treaty of 1837 as "Pe-zhe-ke, or the Buffalo," and the Treaty of 1854 as "Ke-che-waish-ke, or the Buffalo." What name appeared on his gravestone? (The linked photo shows a gravestone but the name portion has been broken off). Armstrong (1892), who should have known, seems to consistently refer to him as Buffalo.

I bring this up because I have a document before me obtained from the Wis. Hist. Soc. some years ago titled: "Names of Chippewa Chief[s] Who Signed the Treaty of 1854 Made and Executed at La Pointe, Wisconsin, September 30th of Said Year." It is undated altho 1854 has been written at the top of page 1, and from the contents it appears to have been compiled at the time of the Treaty. In two columns it gives names of chiefs and the meanings of their names. Column 1 states that "KE-CHE-WAIS-KE" was the La Pointe chief's "Nickname" and under the second column it says that this means "Big Whiskey." Column 1 states his "Real name" was "BIH-ZHIH-KIH" and column 2 that this means "Buffalo." In this same context refer to McKenny (1827), p.461-2. I offer this in the interest of good scholarship and out of respect and concern for Great Chief Buffalo's rightful name and honor.Herbwag (talk) 16:25, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Aaniin Herbwag. Gidanishinaabem ina? The translation "Great Renewer" is the direct Ojibwe to English translation of Gichi-weshki. So, do we know for a fact that in the earlier treaties the Bizhiki of La Pointe is this "Bizhiki of the Loon Doodem" and not Bizhiki of La Pointe that is the "Bizhiki of the Crane Doodem"? As for multiple names, it is quite common... even today (I have a co-worker with 3 different Anishinaabe names). An Anishinaabe may have a birth name, childhood nickname, rights-to-adult name, adulthood nickname and life-renewal name that can extend into the individual's entire life, and then there is the "Christian" name, which can be either English or French, and in early history, a French translation of the person's Anishinaabe name (see Densmore and see Hilger). "Bizhiki" and its French translation "Le Beouf" are his name, but he was transcribed as Gichi-weshki and not as Bizhiki, because that was his rôle (remember: name = title = function, in Ojibwe and all other verb-based languages). "Big Whiskey" don't quite make sense since by this period, the word for whiskey was already ishkodewaaboo—"fire-water"—so maybe the whiskey part was untranslated, with the intension being "Big Weshki". I would put that translation together with the name found in the Treaty of Old Crossing (1863) of Bwaanens translated as "Little Shoe" instead of "Little Sioux"... or what about Metaakoziikwe ("Pure Woman" or "Unmixed Woman" or "Fully Woman"—in this case refering to a woman who gives asemaa (tobacco) as an offering), an ogimaakwe for the Waaswaaganing where her name was not translated into English, and if you didn't know that this Chief was a woman (the clue in this case comes from her name), and if you spoke only English and not Anishinaabemowin, one would have never known that there was a woman who was a treaty signatory to the 1842 Treaty of La Pointe! Or what about Goojijiikwe whose annuity records translate her name as "Rainy Lake Woman" but that isn't what her name means (though that is the implied name); her name literally means "Inlet[-country] Woman" where the Inlet Country is the Rainy Lake region. Or that Mille Lac's Wazhashkokon and Pítad are the same person because that was his name, but in one treaty, the English phonetic transcription of the Ojibwe is given but in another, the English phonetic transcription of the Dakota is given. Gichi-weshki was best known for the Treaties of La Pointe and in both recorded as Gichi-weshki instead of Bizhiki... that is like only some people know of the famous actor Marion Robert Morrison, but everyone knows Marion instead as John Wayne. Food for thought. CJLippert (talk) 00:16, 30 January 2008 (UTC)Strike-through erroneous comment. CJLippert (talk) 17:56, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Miigwitch for your thoughtful reply. My ojibwe is limited to Baraga and Nichols, and I don't find "weski" in the latter (altho it must be there in some form) and only something like "born of late" (Great First Born?) in the former. I wouldn't even have brought this up except that this old list of the 1854 Treaty signers appears to have been a good faith effort to define their names accurately; possibly at the time of the Treaty as that's how it reads. On p.4 it lists another ojibwe person named "Waish-Key" from the Mississippi Bands and in the meaning column says: "A nickname for Whiskey." Notice it says it's a "nickname." Of course "fire water" is today rendered "ishkodewaaboo" just like you say (in old accounts often seen as "scutawabe"). What disturbs me is how "ishkode" ==> "waiskey" ==> "whiskey" seem a little bit too close for comfort when said out loud to dismiss given the way in which ojibwe words are transformed into so many different versions or renditions depending on who is saying or recording them. This old document does record it as "Big Whiskey" in the historical record. Nor have I seen in any old account (except for this document under discussion) where the name "Ke-Che-Wais-Ke" is ever defined by anyone as "Great Renewer" or "Great First Born." Is there a historic translation or only a modern translation? This less-than-flattering definition of Gichiwaishke, however, is verified in this old document found at the Wisconsin Historical Society and that bothers me and gives the name a degree of doubt, even if the definition is, perhaps, not correct. I would feel a lot better if Armstrong (who loved the Old Buffalo) had used it. On a final note, modern people (even descendents of G.C.B. whom I have met), rarely if ever seem to refer to him as Gichi-waishki but always it seems as Chief Buffalo. So I wonder if people googling for "Great Chief Buffalo (La Pointe Band, Lake Superior)" will be misled by this other name and not find him? I hope not.Herbwag (talk) 19:57, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

majiikiwis is the "first born." oshkinawe is "adolescent." oshki is "new." weshki is the initial-syllable vowel change form of oshki. The erroneous translation "First-born son" for Weshki comes from Henry Schoolcraft (see Indian Names in Michigan by Virgil J. Vogel). In many dialects, the short unaccented vowels are dropped. In Ojibwe, the name Weshki can also be translated into "New One," "Beginning One" or even "Youngster." At these treaty sessions, there usually were interpreters. Unfortunately, these interpreters spoke (with a high probablility) the pidgin Anishishinaabemowin called "Broken Ojibwa," which was THE trade language then, where there are words that exist in Anishinaabemowin proper but not in "Broken Ojibwa." Dr. John Nichols, for the Mille Lacs Band, have put out a document called "The Translation of Key Phrases in the Treaties of 1837 and 1855" which has been included in Fish in the Lakes, Wild Rice, and Game in Abundance (James M. McClurken, ed. Lansing: Michigan University Press, 2000) where this issue is specifically addressed. If you look at Aboriginies of Minnesota by Winchell, the primary entry is not "Ke-che-waish-ke" but rather "Ke-che-waish-keenh" (Gichi-weshkiinh, which is Gichi-weshki with the contemptive suffix) with "Ke-che-waish-ke" and "Ke-che-wash-keenk" as secondary entries. In addition to the two Treaties of La Pointe, he was the signatory to the 1847 Treaty of Fond du Lac. For the Google searches, that is why we set up the disambiguation page, while on the specific article, provide the major alternate spellings. CJLippert (talk) 21:47, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for further addressing my concerns. That last post explains a lot. I don't have the Vogel work, however, and would like to see the original Schoolcraft source for "first-born," because even if wrong, it gives me a historic reference to counter the "Big Whiskey" citation that exists at the Wis.Hist.Soc. I've looked through my Schoolcraft material and online, but can't find it. Do you have the original Schoolcraft citation for "weski" as "first-born son"? Also, I did find this "Waishkey" => "whiskey" reference you might want to look at. Perhaps you already know it.[1]Herbwag (talk) 17:43, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

See Personal Memoirs Of A Residence Of Thirty Years With The Indian Tribes On The American Frontiers by Henry Schoolcraft. The name form you're looking for that Vogel alludes is "Way-ish-kee" (without the "Ke-tche") of La Pointe, son of "Waubodjeeg", where "Way-ish-kee"/"Wayishkee" is translated twice as "First Born Son." Since this word in no way means "first born son," what Schoolcraft might be trying to say is that "Way-ish-kee"/"Wayishkee" was the first born son of "Waubodjeeg" opposed some other person well known at the time with the same name who was not the first born son. CJLippert (talk) 20:23, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

The site you refered above contains the several genealogies, including that of Gaa-dawaabide (Broken Tooth). The order reflected there, as sourced from Johann Kohl is: Giizhig-gosigwad (Fear of the Sky) > Miskwandibaagaa (Red Haired) > Mitigwaakoozh (Wooden mouth) > Zhaawano-giizhig (Southern Wind) > Weshki (Beginner) > "Wa-ja-wa-daj-kos" (One having \ wearing a very red skin) > Machiwayaan (Great Skin) > Bayaaswaa (Dry one) > Gaa-dawaabide (Broken Tooth). The Weshki in this line would have been the contemporary to the grandfather of Buffalo (son of Waabojiig (White Fisher) of the Crane doodem), so this Weshki is not the Gichi-weshki/Buffalo. CJLippert (talk) 02:27, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Waishkey, Schoolcraft, and Sault Ste. Marie

Thanks! I have some of Schoolcraft, 1851 photocopied, but not the "Wayishkee" pages. Question: Is it known whether this Wayishkee that Schoolcraft mentions is Great Chief Buffalo or another individual? Quote (Schoolcraft, 1851): "[1826 Oct.]_30th_. Visited by Wayishkee, a chief, having a medal of the first class, formerly of La Pointe, in Lake Superior, and of an ancient line of chiefs, but for the last three years a resident of St.Mary's."Herbwag (talk) 18:22, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I added some more headings to organize the different strands of this discussion. Feel free to revert if it doesn't work for you. My impression is that there were a number of related people refered to as Waishkey. It seems the family was powerful in both La Pointe and Sault Ste. Marie, though especially in the Soo. Waubojeeg was certainly one of them (often being referred to simply as Waishkey, and Buffalo was too. Now, as for the relationship between Buffalo and Waubojeeg (son, nephew, something else) I don't know.

Leo1410 (talk) 19:44, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Images

[edit] Tin type

The photographic reproduction of the tin type is very choppy. Please either reduce the size for crispness or find a replacement copy of a higher resolution. CJLippert (talk) 23:17, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Went to the Wisconsin Historical Society and found a higher-resolution photo and replaced the low-resolution photo. CJLippert (talk) 23:48, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

onizhishin! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Leo1410 (talk • contribs) 04:55, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

wenipazh. CJLippert (talk) 05:35, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] WI Rez map

For this article, the map showing Anishinaabe reservations in northern Wisconsin and its environs would not quite be appropriate as the article is about Kechewaishke and not specifically about Treaty of La Pointe, where Kechewaishke was an instrumental figure. It may be better to show instead a map containing just Red Cliff and Bad River Indian Reservations, along with northern portions of Royce 242 (sub-section c and d) and Royce 261 (sub-section b), as these are the areas with direct ties with Kechewaishke. As for the Treaty of La Pointe (1854), having a map of Royce 242 (sub-sections a through e), Royce 261 (sub-sections a through f) and Royce 332 (sub-sections a, b and c), with the proposed Reservations of the Lake Superior Chippewas including that of the originally proposed St. Croix and Sokoagon Reservations, and another map of the Reservations of today from that original group would be helpful. CJLippert (talk) 23:17, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, found a better map. Leo1410 (talk) 04:57, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Petition

I am satisfied with the mix of images in the article right now. The crane signature of Ouabangue (Waabangii???) is not directly related to Buffalo, but it fits with the paragraph it's in. I also replaced the current map of La Pointe with one from 1755. Now, the obvious missing image would be the 1849 pictographic petition to the president a.k.a. Chief Buffalo's Petition. I saw User:Jaawano has uploaded it to commons. However, I am still not convinced Buffalo had anything to do with that particular petition. If you follow this link [2], it has Schoolcraft's original description of the petition where he details who each figure represents (all are individuals from the headwaters of the Wisconsin River I assume Lac Vieux Desert. The Crane is Chief Oshcawabis). Now, the Wisconsin Historical Society says in a few different places that it was Chief Buffalo's petition. I suppose Buffalo could have been involved in asking Oshcawabis to visit the president, but we need a source to back this up. The historical society seems to cite the historian at Lac Courte Oreilles, so maybe there is some oral history that came down and there's more to the story than what was recorded by Schoolcraft. But right now, all I see are people calling it Chief's Buffalo's petition.

Now, it might be a good idea to put it in anyway since it relates to the 1837 and '42 treaties and possible removal. We could have a note explaining these issues. What do you think? Leo1410 (talk) 21:59, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

The petition is in direct response to Wisconsin's statehood and their treatment of the Anishinaabeg. This is a concern I have address in the comments on why I have rated this "B" in the Wisconsin project. If we develop the article to discuss the political arena of Wisconsin Territory being carved out of Michigan Territory and the changes brought with it, and then the further deterioration of Indian-White relations upon Wisconsin's statehood that lead to this petition to Washington, DC, at that point the includion of the petition would be appropriate. Otherwise, I don't quite know where this would be appropriate other than to discuss the background of how the 1854 Treaty of La Pointe was negotiated. CJLippert (talk) 22:56, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Split off appropriate section. I don't know if I covered all the particulars you were referring to. I tried to keep it general as the article is supposed to be about Kechewaishke, but if you think it's missing something crucial, please add it. Miigwech. Leo1410 (talk) 05:01, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Lithograph

I've been mulling this over for the past several days. I'm wondering if the lithograph Image:PeeCheKir.jpg where Winchell lists as "Pee-che-kin" might instead be Buffalo of St. Croix because McKenney met both the St. Croix and the La Pointe Buffalos in both 1825 and 1826; however, in 1826, the two are listed as "Peezhickee" and "Peexhickee", but in 1825, they were listed instead as "Pee-see-ker" and "Gitspee Waskee"... and notice it is the St. Croix Buffalo that is listed as "Pee-see-ker"! Winchell seemed to have did a good job in his compilation, so I'm also wondering if the St. Croix Buffalo may have instead have been Bizhikiinh and not Bizhiki. Thoughts? CJLippert (talk) 21:49, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

I worried about that too. Interestingly enough, there is a painting from the same time of "The Celebrated Chippeway Chief" Pe-Shick-Ee by James Otto Lewis.[3]. The Leech Lake Buffalo went by Bizhikiinh in 1837 and 1842, but he seems to have been too young to sign in 1825-26. There doesn't seem to be a lot of information out there about the St. Croix Buffalo. Warren describes him as an old man, so if he was Bizhikiinh, it probably wasn't for age. For the La Pointe Buffalo, Schoolcraft goes back and forth between Gitchee Waishkee and Pezhickee, Warren goes between Kechewashkeenh and Old Buffalo, and others do similar things. For all the reading I've done, it seems like he used both names equally and there is no real consistancy on who called him what or in what contexts. So, what he's called and how it's spelled is variable even with the same author in the same place. Does "r" usually equal "nh" in the 19th century orthography?

I guess my logic so far has been that the man in the King painting looks like Kechewaiske and the man in the Lewis painting doesn't. By elimination, I assumed the Lewis is from St. Croix. Although "celebrated" sounds more like La Pointe. Not very scientific. Unless we can find out more about the paintings themselves, we should probably mention this in the caption. Leo1410 (talk) 21:31, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

In the 1800's, the "r" was used as a vowel legthener, much as the "r" still does in Bostonian English. For example, descendants of Jaangigaabaw are the Garbow, Gahbow and Gabow families about where I live... and the name variation with the "r" only works if you treat it as a vowel lengthener. That doesn't guarantee that the "ir" then becomes "iinh" but it does guarantee it is at least an ii... and with Wisconsin dialects often making nh/ny into just h/y, it is even harder to tell if the "Pee-che-kir" is supposed to be Bizhikii(h) or Bizhikiinh but Winchell did interview elders back in 1911, and based on his interviews, he had compiled the name as "Pee-che-kin" which leans more towards Bizhikiinh than Bizhikii(h). Now, both Lewis and King were in Wisconsin in 1825, 1826 and 1827, and both Buffalos were in attendance in 1825 and 1826. Now, the prints do have captions on them so I should take a close look at them and see what they say. If they both say "A Chippewa Chief", then the caption wouldn't be too helpful, but since the tin type and the King litho looked very similar, my assumption is that the King litho was the La Pointe Buffalo. CJLippert (talk) 00:26, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree. It really looks like the tin type. That's not enough to say definitively that it is Kechewaishke. I did a little looking around for information on the two images. I found websites attributing both of them to both men (big surprise). Two things suggested to me that the lithograph was Bizhiki from St. Croix. 1) It was next to Naudin (Noodin) in McKenney's book and Naudin and Bizhiki are frequently mentioned together in the sources. 2) I found something saying Bird painted most of his works in Washington, and in the 1837 negotiations, Bizhiki from St. Croix claimed to have seen the "Great Father in Washington." Kechewaiske, of course, made his trip in 1852. But, if King was in Wisconsin, it could just as easily be Kechewaishke since it's entirely possible McKenney writing twenty years after the fact mixed up the photos. If we could find journals of King or Lewis we might be able to solve this mystery, but for now, I'm okay with changing the caption to acknowledge the lithograph could be another chief. Now, do we do the same with the Lewis? Also, I trust your analysis of the "r", as my knowledge of historical Ojibwe is limited, but I'm pretty certain there was no "r" sound in the 19th century SW dialects. You would know more than I would. Leo1410 (talk) 22:37, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

You're right about by that by 19th c., Ojibwe is SW had no "r" as it has long transitioned to "n", thus "r" is an English attempt to represent an Ojibwe long vowel, but that style only works in Bostonian/eastern New England dialect of English. For now, until Pee-che-kir of King and Pe-schick-ee of Lewis are sorted out, both article's caption for the litho ought to attributed to both Buffalos. CJLippert (talk) 14:49, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ka she ansh

Yesterday, I saw a GLIFWC video on the Sandy Lake Tragedy and once again it said that Buffalo went to Washington in 1849. I found the record of the petition in the records of congress on Google books, and the first chief listed on the bottom is written as "Ka she ansh". Oshkabawis (the Crane in the pictographic version) is listed second. I don't know enough Ojibwe to say for sure that Ka she ansh couldn't be a gross misspelling of Kechewaishke. If it was Kashe Wanshke, that would be one thing. By knowledge of another chief of that name, or by its meaning in Ojibwe, can you say that Ka she ansh is someone else? I also found a copy of Kechewaishke's 1852 letter to the president, where he says (up until that point) he had not had to visit Washington. A mention of an 1849 visit is also conspicuously absent from Armstrong's account. Again, it is possible that Oshcabawis delivered a petition from Buffalo and brought the signature with him while Buffalo stayed back. Any guesses? Leo1410 (talk) 21:07, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

The name may be Gezhiiyaash (Ke-zhi-ash, Ka-she-aush, Kay-she-osh): "Fast Flier" (lit: Breezes-by quickly). Gilfillan manuscripts for White Earth records an Otter Tail Pillager with that name, according to Winchell. However, I haven't seen Rev. Gilfillan's papers personally, so I don't know if in 1893 Gilfillan is recalling Gezhiiyaash or if Gezhiiyaash lived in 1893. CJLippert (talk) 22:39, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Checking Google, "Ke-zhi-ash" comes up as "He who sails very fast", though that wouldn't quite work for a translation since that would require reduplication of the syllable. So either the name ought to have been translated as "He who sails fast" or the recorded name ought to have been "Ke-ki-zhi-ash". CJLippert (talk) 22:57, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I should have just looked at the listing of the 1842 Treaty of La Pointe. Gezhiiyaash is listed as a signatory on behalf of the Lac Vieux Desert Band (signator #28) as "Sails Fast". CJLippert (talk) 16:36, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh, a thought on one more thing. Oshkaabewis may or may not be the name of the person, since this means "messanger"... and so we don't really know if this person was named this or this was the rôle the person was taking on in delivering a message to DC... as an oshkaabewis. Since the letter was written full of odoodeman, it very well may have been considered an urgent ceremonial plea, thus appropriate to use an oshkaabewis to deliver such a message. CJLippert (talk) 22:47, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

One mystery solved, another in its place. I still think the messanger was from Lac View Desert and was not Kechewaishke. My guess is that one of the "19 Chippewa chiefs and headmen" was Beshekee from Leech Lake, and that could have cause the confusion, but I'd still like to get my hands on the sources for any of this. Right now, we are heading down the OR path. It's difficult to write an article on wiki when there is so much that is "verifiable" but is contridictory and/or easily disputed. Leo1410 (talk) 23:54, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Checking Winchell's names index, he list "Osh-ka-ba-wis, Pipe bearer, Chief, Wisconsin river, War., 318; Wis. Hist. Soc. I, 123, visited Washington in Polk's presidency" so check out Warren. Historically, the Wisconsin River Band was consolidated with Lac du Flambeau Band... and sure enough, in the 1854 Treaty of La Pointe, he is listed as "1st Chief" (signer #63). Based on the signing patterns, I'm going to assume the Wisconsin River Band is reprented by signers #63-#67. Interestingly, Winchell also lists "O-shaw-bay-wis, Chief, Lac du Flambeau, who insisted for the Ojibwa at Bad river that one Loren Mitchell should distribute their annuities instead of the government agent, Ind. Com." CJLippert (talk) 01:38, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Not for this article, but it may be an interesting note if we can find the doodem of the signers #63-#67 in the Treaty of La Pointe (1854) and see if they (and few others) are the ones represented in the 1849 petition. CJLippert (talk) 01:46, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm. I see what you mean.

Wis. Hist. Soc. says -- Crane: Chief Buffalo (La Pointe), Catfish: Naadagaame ("Paddle to Shore")(Lake Chetac), Merman: Nenaa'angebi ("Fixes-up Its Wing-feathers")(Prairie Rice Lake), Bear: Akiwenzii {"Old Man"}(Little Lac Courte Oreilles), Marten (R): Zhingobiinh ("Spruce")(Fond du Lac), Marten (C): "Wahbekasho" (Chippewa River), Marten (L): Ayaabens ("Buck")(St. Croix)

But GLIFWC says -- Crane: Oshkaabewis ("Messanger"/"Pipe-bearer")(Wisconsin River), Marten (R): Wemitigoozh ("Wooden-boat One"/"Frenchman")(Prairie Rice Lake Band?), Marten (C): Ogimaa-giizhig ("Ruler of the Sky")(?? Band), Marten (L): Makomisadens ("Little Bear-gut")(?? Band), Bear: Omashkooz ("Elk")(?? Band), Merman: Binesiinh ("Little Bird")(?? Band), Catfish: Naawajiwan ("Middle of the Current")(?? Band)

CJLippert (talk) 02:18, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Aaniin niijii, can you tell me which Google Book you've found the citation for Image:Chief Buffalo's Petition 1849 originally of birch bark.jpg? All I could find was that the 7 Ogimaag were from Lac Vieux Desert, Trout Lake, Lac Courte Oreilles, La Pointe, Ontonagon, L'Anse and Pequaming. From what you have posted before, I assume Ka-she-ansh (Gezhiiyaash) was the one from Lac Vieux Desert. From what I could find thus far, the Records of Congress reflects that of what was reported by Schoolcraft. CJLippert (talk) 00:53, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

The info on the pictograph (as well as three other pictographs) comes from Schoolcraft 1851 and is not on Google Books. It's on the UW Libraries website[4]. It's worth visiting just to see the other pictographs if you haven't. Name and doodem of each of the chiefs in all four of the pictographs (from Trout Lake, Ontonagan, and Wisconsin River) are given. Kasheansh is not one of them. What I found on Google was the English written petition presented to congress Miscellaneous Documents (pub 1849).Leo1410 (talk) 20:56, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] To Do

I think it is ready for GA status, and I am going to nominate it and notify the proper boards. I still have a list of concerns if we want it to be a FA.

• Grammar- I gave it the once-over and spellcheck, but my construction and word choice is still a bit clunky. Someone who is good at copyeditting should go over it.
• MOS issues- I don't really know what is or isn't correct here.
• Flow of content- It sort of hits all the big events from written sources as a list, but doesn't spend as much time on Buffalo's personal life or early years. Names of wives and children, etc. would be nice. I'm not aware of sources though.
• Naming- I think Kechewaishke is allowed under WP:UE as it is used in English sources and is less ambiguous than Chief Buffalo. However, as Herbwag said, he is more widely known as Buffalo, and is called Buffalo throughout. A second opinion might be best on this. Great Buffalo might work though I like it less.
• Red links- All the ones that are left deserve articles, and my next project is to stub them.

Any other concerns before I nominate? Leo1410 (talk) 22:25, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Nominated. Looks like the process is much simpler than I thought. It just takes one person who hasn't contributed to the article to review it. FA, on the other hand, looks pretty tough--not a huge priority right now. Leo1410 (talk) 03:10, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

It's a beautiful article that I would totally support for FA. I hope my copyeditting helped, but please look over my hidden comments, and fill in the missing refs. As for the naming, I think Kechewaishke is perfectly acceptable, but referring to him as Buffalo throughout is confusing. Even after reading the whole article, a sentence like "Buffalo became ill..." confused me - the guy or the animal? People know him as Chief Buffalo, but unless you want to refer to him as Chief Buffalo every time (which isn't even accurate), I'd change them all to Kechewaishke. - TheMightyQuill (talk) 15:35, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I read the article for a peer review (as requested at WikiProject Wisconsin). I think there should be many more inline references - 25 is well short of my expectations for an article of this length. I find the writing very good, especially the Trip to Washington section. I don't understand why so much information about his grandfather is in this article. More background explanation of the Loons vs. Cranes would be helpful. Royalbroil 16:27, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Meaning of Weshkii

On page 20 of Schoolcraft's[5] "Narrative of an Expedition..." (1834), he indicates that "Waishki" like Mudjikiwis is the title of the hereditary chiefs of La Pointe and that Chi Waishki (Buffalo) was the current holder of the title previously held by Waubojeeg and Mamongazeda. Now, Schoolcraft (especially in his early works) tends to oversell his knowledge of Ojibwe history and family relationships and the facts are contradicted by Warren (Cranes hereditary rulers, Buffalo and the Loons having a more recent rise, Mamongazeda and Waubojeeg Caribou clan from Grand Portage). However, it seems like a worthy line of inquiry that might sort out some of the naming confusion. The literal meaning of Kechewaishke might be Great Renewer, but is it possible that when referring to Buffalo it meant something more along the lines of "Great Chief"? Leo1410 (talk) 22:03, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Contemplating on this a bit more, the word has nothing to do with "chief" but let me suggest the following alternatives:

• gichiiwishki = "be thought of as being great"... which if you recall, Herbwag was concerned about "Great 'Whiskey'" as the name... and this form might very well be a reflection of this word. However, treaty documents mostly reflect the e- and not i-sound in the name, though this might be a reflection of the short "e" found in the Wisconsin dialects.
• gichiiweshki = "be a habitual big-talker"... which sounds like an excellent way to describe an orator but the term nitaa-giigido and its noun form netaa-giigidod generally is the preferred term for an orator or the speaker of the council. Treaty of Prairie du Chien (1825) suggests his name may have been Gichiiweshkii(h), Treaty of Fond du Lac (1847) suggests Gichi-weshkiinh while both Treaties of La Pointe (1842) and (1854) suggests Gichi-weshki.

BTW, I know we now have a stub article for Waabojiig (White fisher) but do you think there are enough materials out there to begin an article for Mamaangĕzide (Have Very Large Feet)? CJLippert (talk) 04:25, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

I know Big Chief would be Gichi-ogimaa, but I'm not looking at the literal meaning of Weshkii so much as I am interested in Schoolcraft's assertion that it is a title for the primary chief at Shagawamikong. Now, I think Schoolcraft is incorrect in saying the Weshkiiyag are a hereditary bloodline since we know that individuals from 3 doodems held the name/title. However, it makes a lot of sense that Buffalo would have been nicknamed Big Speaker or Big Peace Chief if Weshkii (as applied to Mamongazeda and Waubojeeg) referred to something like "top diplomat among the Ojibwe of Shagawamikong." I know it's a dangerous road when non-Ojibwes who only know pieces of the language (like Schoolcraft or myself) try to make assumptions as to metaphorical usages and usually end up dead wrong. I guess my question is why did all these chiefs wind up with the Weshkii nickname?

As to the literal meaning, keep in mind that the spelling Wayishkey is also out there, so there may be another syllable. I will stub Mamongazeda. Leo1410 (talk) 20:24, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

"Wayishkey" seems to reflect reduplication. Though I would say wii= and wi= would reduplicate as waawii= and wawi= respectively, maybe in his days in that area, the pronunciation of the reduplication was instead waayii= and wayi= respectively, just as "four-" in the LCO dialect is niiyo- while Mille Lacs is niiwo-. There is an elder at Bad River who often advises GLIFWC on nitty-gritty language-related nuances such as this. Let me shoot a question to my GLIFWC contact and ask to have this question posed to this elder for us. CJLippert (talk) 00:52, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Looking at Winchell, he syllabifies the name not as Wa-yish-key if reflecting a reduplication, but instead as Way-ish-key... which might still just be weshkii but with the emphasis that the "e" is the normal long "e" and not the short, unaccented "i" or "a" that became a schwa-like short "e" common in the Wisconsin dialects. CJLippert (talk) 16:31, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] GA on hold

Hi there, I have reviewed this article against the Wikipedia:good article criteria and although I am not quite prepared to pass the article for GA immediately, I don't think there is a long way to go. I have listed below the principle problems which prevent this article from achieving GA status. The article now has seven days to address these issues, and should the contributors disagree with my comments then please indicate below why you disagree and suggest a solution, compromise or explanation. Further time will be granted if a concerted effort is being made to address the problems, and as long as somebody is genuinely trying to deal with the issues raised then I will not fail the article. I am aware that my standards are quite high, but I feel that an article deserves as thorough a review as possible when applying for GA and that a tough review process here is an important stepping stone to future FAC attempts. Please do not take offence at anything I have said, nothing is meant personally and maliciously and if anyone feels aggrieved then please notify me at once and I will attempt to clarify the comments in question. Finally, should anyone disagree with my review or eventual decision then please take the article to WP:GAR to allow a wider selection of editors to comment on the issues discussed here. Well done on the work so far.

[edit] Issues preventing promotion

(These issues must be satisfactorily addressed, in the article itself or here, before GA promotion can go ahead)

• Please sub-divide the background section. It contains several different themes and issues and is also a large block of text. PLease break it into sub-themes for ease of reading. When you do make sure that the images look OK with the new headings.

Y Done - created subheadings and broke section into three parts. Leo1410 (talk) 18:35, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

• Please source the first two paragraphs of "Threats of Removal" and "Trip to Washington".

Y Done - added proper refs. Leo1410 (talk) 18:35, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Once these are done, I'd be happy to pass the article.--Jackyd101 (talk) 19:46, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Its passed, good work.--Jackyd101 (talk) 16:43, 26 March 2008 (UTC)