User talk:Kdakin

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Welcome!

Hello, Kdakin, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome!  DS 19:18, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Incorrectly formatted data

I noticed that you had created this article. I think the real question I have is "Does this belong on Wikipedia?".

Is there a larger purpose behind this article?

Fiddle Faddle 17:20, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I tried to get a message to you re: your comment. I don't know if this will get to you but I thought I'd try anyway. What is problem with "invalid data format".

Each time I try to put in an account of what something is, it suggests it doesnt know the terminology.

Therefore, I try to give a general description of the terms I am using.

Please advise, also how to respond to you generally ken dakin

--ken 17:48, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

  • This method works well, Ken. I simply looked at the article and could not yet see its place in an encyclopaedia. Now that's ok, because I don't decide what stays and what goes :) I was just thinking that it could do with several things, the most important of which is an assertion that it is important enough to be here (by the topic asserting its importance - kind of catch 22). Again not my opinion, because the community looks at pages (that is people just like you and me) and determines keep vs delete. Other things required tend to be external validation. We may "know something" but that tends to be insufficient, so we need references in the external world. And we also need articles which are not orphans - ie those that are linked to by (ideally) several other articles. I understand totally when you search for something, can't find it, and thus write an article. That's what all of us do. We just have to use care sometimes to make sure the article is worthy of our efforts. I don't mean to stop you, nor to curb your enthusiasm. And you have every right to ignore me. Fiddle Faddle 18:05, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

There is no obvious way to respond to your comment (on Wikpedia), clicking the "+" key was in desperation. It seems to have the desired effect however. What's wrong with a "reply" tab ?

Maybe I am missing something - but there is so much verbiage regarding what's OK and what's not that frankly, life's too short to read it all before wanting to add something required to the Wikpedia, even though it may be imperfect.

I have tried to be impartial as far as possible.

I am an "original" source , not because everything I am saying is my opinion, but much moreso because it seems that no-one has bothered to present this historical information before, even though it has a history going back to the late 60's with loads of documented stuff stuck in IBM libraries and elsewhere.

I think the reason is that an incredible amount of IT knowledge is unknown because it is having to be re-learnt by the current generation of PC developers who won't know that much has been done before in previous incarnations or architecture.

I started by looking at "debugging" as a term. Every reference to debuggers seemed to be referencing recent debuggers for Personal Computers with no reference whatsoever to "legacy" systems. As just one of the relatively few authors of earlier debugging systems, I feel I can testify directly about at least a few debugging systems that existed long before the current crop.

Time will tell whether I have added anything that is controversial, as I am sure it will be edited out. I think not however.

Tell me what you think

Ken Dakin --ken 19:58, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

  • You'll get used to talk pages. They can be easily misunderstood. For me they are the hardest part of this thing. Help:Talk_page#How_to_keep_a_two-way_conversation_readable may help. What you need to to with articles is to make them authoritative by referring to external items. An example is an early page I created, Tide Mills. It took me a while to learn what to do. Have a look at the way the references are made. Then consider using that type of approach to use external references to give credence to the items you are describing. I was around in mainframes in the 70s, so I know where you're coming from, BTW. I'll scratch my head and see if I can come up with something as an example in your own article. No promises Fiddle Faddle 20:27, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
    • OK, have a look at it now. I was scraping my own personal barrel somewhat. But it is more the type of article that will not be proposed for deletion now. Not that I guarantee that, you understand! It needs a little more work to become secure against that. It could also do with some other authoritative pages to link to it, but only in valid context. Does that help you? Fiddle Faddle 20:38, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Buffer Overflow

Hey, if you contribute to an article and your edit is removed, explain on the talk page why you think the removal was unjustified. Arbitration is for more serious disputes which cannot be solved via the source page. The reason I removed your paragraph (in July), was that it was not in itself related to buffer overflows, but lent itself to the topic of black box testing or debugger, however it was unsuitable for moving to those particular articles as is. Cheers, -- ~~

[edit] Re: superceded→superseded, todays→today's

You "corrected" my article on shared public spreadsheet by adding two new spelling / puntuation mistakes. "superceded" and "todays" were (and still are) correct.ken 04:59, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi Ken,
I did a little research on this one, and it turns out I was correct on both counts. "supersede" is generally regarded as the preferred spelling of the word. See here and here.
Also, "today's commercial spreadsheets" is definitely the correct usage. "todays" means the plural of the noun "today", which doesn't make sense as there's only ever one thing called "today". "today's", on the other hand, indicates the possessive, i.e. "spreadsheets of today".
Unless you have any objections, I'll reapply my changes at some point soon. Cheers, CmdrObot 19:31, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Hi

I think you are wrong on both counts still - spelling is English and I looked up correct spelling too ; "todays" should perhaps be "todays'" but not "today's" which means "today is" as in "he's".ken 20:20, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

As a side note, "today's commercial spreadsheets" is absolutely correct. Also, there would never be an instance of todays' -- that is totally incorrect english. It would be supersede and today's. Hope this helps (mom was an English professor). /Blaxthos 20:22, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] OS/2 Warp -- irrelevant to article

Several probelms I see (each of which, individually, would prohibit inclusion):

  1. Unsourced - No source of this information.
  2. Original research - makes assumptions and draws conclusions.
  3. Speculative - Speculates about what IBM "most certainly" knew, etc.
  4. Irrelevant - That some company approached IBM with an entirely different product they called Warp and later sued IBM over does not have any signifcance to this article. The product they sold had nothing to do with OS/2 Warp -- it's simply a dispute over ownership of the name.

Removed per norm. /Blaxthos 18:50, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Follow up - from comment left on my talk page:

I also have original copies of letters from IBM regarding our offer to them regarding our product WARP.If you want an image of the letter I will show it with the article. Theft is not trivial and it is certainly relevant to the origin of the name. IBM reputedly spent $300,000,000 marketing a product using our trademarked name.

The letters constitute original research and does not qualify as an appropriate source for inclusion in Wikipedia. However, your comment belies your non-neutral point of view -- you refer to the name "Warp" as our trademark name. Clearly you represent the company involved in the lawsuit, and it seems that your point of view is skewed by your association with them (notice your accusation of "theft" -- keep in mind we're talking about the trademark name of totally unrelated products; so you assert that you own the name "Warp"?)! It's hard to assume good faith that you are simply trying to improve the article while having a non-neutral point of view and being involved in a lawsuit regarding the subject of the article. This is not the place. /Blaxthos 20:11, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
  • It appears that you think that history can be changed by removing an account of what actually happened. The version that currently exists is not the truth and it is only fair that the another and publicly documented point of view is offered for consideration. The evidence is not only public domain but highly relevant to the original article which already discusses the origin of the name. The fact that I personally was involved is only relevant from the standpoint of my being a witness to the facts stated in the article. There are many others also involved who can state the truth of this matter including an independent "expert witness" who was called to the French Court to testify against IBM's claim that ("Our") product WARP did not even exist or did not do what was claimed.

Denying alternative accounts of events will not make them disappear - the way the alternative account was explained by me was hardly heavily biased. It was left to the reader to explore further - if need be - to decide which was the truthful account.I am quite prepared to scan in and publish the relevant letters to from IBM which will prove IBM's involvement with APT. To claim that the argument is irrelevant is itself biased considering the original uncited claim by IBM.

The question of whether or not IBM knew that "warping" plastic was not relevant to the tradename "Warp" is in fact self evident and hardly contraversial. The product they claimed was the original "trademark" was also cited and is an IBM product with a recognized product number and description which testifies to the description I gave.

In fact, anyone with sufficient interest could easily verify what I said from the information provided in my narrative. It is an open secret, not original research as claimed.

As to whether "Warp" and "OS/2 Warp" are totally unrelated products, this would be true if there were no historical facts linking these products. Both names were used to suggest an increase in speed over existing operating systems. Both products alluded to the "Warp speed" implied by association with Star Trek, the main difference being that APT's Warp was registered in advance of IBM's and after IBM had been given the idea by a presentation given by me and other colleagues at IBM's Hursley offices in the UK. This is documented.

I see no point in continuing this discussion, as you blatantly ignore the things I write. You do not have a clear understanding of Wikipedia policies; please read the following:
  1. WP:SIGN -- Please sign your posts. This is not optional.
  2. WP:OR -- Self-published sources are, by definition, original research. Please read the policy.
  3. WP:CITE -- You must site your sources.
  4. WP:VERIFY -- Information must be verifiable
  5. WP:NPOV -- Your involvement with the issue (especially litigation) necessarily means you do not have a neutral point of view. Your purpose is obviously not to improve the article.
  6. IRRELEVANT -- A trademark dispute has nothing to do with the history of OS/2. As I've said countless times, it would be appropriate for an article about IBM Lawsuits or Trademark Disputes; it has no bearing on the history of OS/2.
Any additional changes will result in an RfC on the issue. Thanks. /Blaxthos 22:15, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
  • It seems that history will not record the fact that there was a dispute over the name Warp lasting severn years! I see no reason why the section about "why Warp was named Warp" and the Star Trek comments should also be removed using the same arguments you have used against my additions. How about some arbitration on this point!

Encyclopedia should present facts that are in dispute as much as established facts as long as they are presented in a dispassionate way as I believe my contribution was. Is history to be only written by the critics or people with first hand experience? How about if I put it all as a quote? Did I say it or not if I was the original source? Will it ever be recorded?

Was Einstein biased when he modified Newtons laws of Gravity? was it original research? did people need to know? perhaps if Einstein had posted an alternative theory on Wikipedia it may have been removed by you as speculative, biased, irrelevant original research without any citations from people who believed him?

The greatest theory of mankind would have qualified by your criteria as "removed per norm"ken 10:03, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Dude, I hate to be rude here, but you need to read the policies I quoted to you, specifically the Wikipedia policies regarding primary vs. secondary sources. Let me try to clarify this for you using your own analogy. Wikipedia is not a place to publish original thought. Einstein could not post his theory on Wikipedia -- it would immediately be removed as origianl research. Einstein would publish his theory in a peer-reviewed professional journal; the journal would then be a valid source. Wikipedia allows for secondary sources (generally peer-reviewed, reliable, and verifiable), not for self-published works. If someone wrote a book about the trademark and cited your letters as the primary source, then you could incorporate THAT BOOK into wikipedia as a secondary source (assuming it's reliable). In short, instead of wasing time arguing why you think it should be included, go read the relevant policies. How many times do I need to point this out?
Also, as a side note, I remember IBM using Star Trek based codenames for OS/2 builds ("Klingon", "Ferangi", etc.) since long before OS/2 Warp name was released. You're just flat out wrong, and although I can't insert this because I was an IBM'er who worked on the OS/2 project, there have been several independant secondary sources that have written about the naming schema. In short, it looks like your company just saw a way to try and bleed a little cash out of a big company using trademark lawsuits, but then again that's just my opinion. To summarize, you're wrong on two points:
  1. Your contributions constitute original research and you do not have reliable, verifiable or appropriate sources (per Wikipedia policies and norms).
  2. Your account of "why" it's called OS/2 Warp is wrong -- I know this from working on the project myself. However, it should be noted that it's number one (listed above) that's keeping your claim out of Wikipedia.
Good luck. /Blaxthos 21:39, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

So it seems I was correct that - at least one of you worked for IBM - nothing changes! It seems that IBM will win in the end despite the evidence presented in the public domain and testified to by an expert witness. The fact that Star Trek names were used internally is totally irrelevant to the external name - are you not aware of the very significant difference? How is your IBM pension holding up these days? As for your slanderous suggestion that the story is effectively invented to extract cash from IBM - as a longstanding software designer and producer of recognized high quality software - I find this remark highly insulting.

As for posting secondary sources, who is going to document "in a book" (as if that was the be all and end all of truth! - do you believe everything you/Wikipedia see published in all books then?) something they didn't know about that I can then subsequently quote - does that mean, as you are suggesting, that this piece of history is confined to the dustbin for all time?

As for "verifiable", you are at liberty to examine original documents and check out the public records in the High Court in Paris from 1994-2001.You can also see the ludicrous claims by IBM that APT International "wasn't an international company" (as if that had anything to do with it!) or claims that APT's Warp didn't actually do what was claimed (as if that had anything to do with it either!). I had, earlier, come to the conclusion that Wikipedia offered a rare opportunity to correct some of the predominately one-sided versions of history. I was wrong - it seems that, as in past millenia, only the victors will write the history, even if they are on the pension roll.ken 19:35, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re:Galton Darwin connection

I removed the information about the Galton/Darwin connection because it wasn't relevant to the Keynes article. I did copy the information to Talk:Darwin — Wedgwood family so that people could add it to that article if they wanted. I am sure that the Keynes's are connected in some way to many leading British familes and people, but in my view only the most direct connections should be mentioned in the article. I included the Darwin connection only because some of the Kenyes's are mentioned in the Darwin — Wedgwood family article. Eluchil404 02:13, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Keynes and Keynes family redirects

I don't quite follow your comments on my talk page about Keynes family now pointing to John Maynard Keynes. The family page still exits at its old title, though it has been trimmed down a little. Keynes has always redirected to John Maynard Keynes (which is why I created the Keynes (disambiguation) and Keynes family pages in the first place). De keynes currently redirects to Keynes which makes it a non-functional double redirect. The target should perhaps be changed to Keynes family, but I'm not 100% sure. Eluchil404 07:35, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

  • perhaps I made a mistake, but I think that "Keynes" (and also "de Keynes" ) should logically point to the Keynes disambiguation page , not John Maynard Keynes as currently.ken 08:42, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Spreadsheet

Hi, thanks for the great improvements you have made to Spreadsheet. John Vandenberg 13:26, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Value Rule in Spreadsheets

Ken, this is in response to your observation on my user page discussion regarding the value rule and the implication of real time input to spreadsheets.

First, let me observe that the current time of day function was probably available in spreadsheet when Kay made his observation, though that doesn't refute your point.

Rather, I think that automatically changing things like random number sequences, time/date, and external inputs like real time stock prices fall in the category of "I/O" phenomena, which are traditionally considered a separate sort of thing when talking about the semantics of computer software.

For example, a "Harvard architecture" machine is still considered a Harvard machine even if its program can modify the external media upon which its programs reside, thus rewriting its programs. The fact that it can use I/O to modify its program doesn't change it to a von Neumann machine. Cryptosmith (Rick Smith) 16:17, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

  • Rick, After pondering what you have said concerning Harvard machines, I think you may be wrong!

I think it depends on the length of the tape, how large the blank gaps are and what the resultant program is capable of. I am assuming that when you say "it can use I/O to modify its [own] program", that new blank sections of tape are punched which is then part of the "loop" that gets fed back into the same punched tape "instruction reader" (assuming it only has one for the moment).

For the moment let us ignore most of the practicalities of this - except the speed of instruction processing - which we assume is faster than the I/O. At some point, the processor is having to wait for its next instruction coming in from the reader (or wait for its next instruction to be punched!). The tape writer/reader has now become the bottleneck and in effect the tape takes on the function of the slower data memory. The exact same problem scenario as Von Neumann architecture in fact.

Assuming it is the same loop of tape (i.e. only one tape reader, the program has to anticipate the newly punched gaps and respond accordingly on each iteration. To allow for continual modification, the gaps have to be large (infinitely large if the program is to run for an indefinite amount of time). Thus to take the extreme case, the reader has to wait almost an infinite amount of time for its next instruction from (tape) "memory".

To try to overcome this little problem, lets now introduce a 2nd reader/punch (it has to be both otherwise the output from the punch would not be able to feed back in to make any changes to the running program). So new modified instructions are punched out onto a completely separate tape. Let us ignore the practical speed of this device and its associated reader and assume they both punch and reader run "at the speed of light". The instruction processor now has the original program which punches out modifications onto the 2nd punch tape loop which modify its behaviour each time. The 2nd tape cannot be infinitely long otherwise the processor would have to wait forever to get its modifications! - lets assume it is therefore quite "short" - say 186,000 miles. It therefore has to wait a maximum of just one second to retrieve the latest modification to its own code.

Each modification requires a sequenced section of this loop and in the case of paper tape is non-reusable so eventually all 186,000 miles of tape get used up and no further modifications are possible.

What does this tell us? - I think the following:-

1. A Harvard Architecture does produce Von Neumann style limitations - with this form of "external" input at least.

2. Such a hypothetical self-modifying machine cannot run indefinitely without running out of non-erasable "memory".

3. A random or event driven "input" to a cell breaks the "value rule"?

Furthermore, if a spreadsheet has "I/O" (i.e. value not keyed into a cell but inputted via an external I/O device), its processing is no different to any other conventional computer program. Thus to categorize such a spreadsheet as "a limited form of first-order functional programming" is I believe meaningless unless of course this description also applies to all computer programs which it clearly cannot! The I/O in a spreadsheet is normally all "internal" (i.e. "input" comes from within some cells and "output" ends up in some other cells via formulae - which have to be processed in a particular order and processing takes a finite amount of time.

The "apparent" differences between a spreadsheet and a conventional programs processing are the only things that sets it apart in any way from other programs:-

All the input is "visible" at start of processing (within the sheet and "already read in").

All the processing is (apparently) "at once" (clearly not the case in reality).

All the output is "visible" at end of processing (laid out flat in its entirety. i.e not in an O/P file).

Formulae are repeated (instead of re-applied with an index) to accomplish the end result (this could be done in a conventional program by not using a "loop" and repeating the instructions for each individual input "instance".

These facts would be more apparent if modern day processors were slower and the output values appeared one-by-one as the calculations proceeded.

[The works records system did not need this replication of formulae since date/time factors were "built-in" to the processing from the start].

Perhaps you might like to re-consider the section of the article you added and put a "caveat" on it concerning cells updated by 1) random numbers 2) date/time 3) input from other workbooks which might have input from 1st two or last one ;4) analogue to digital converters (eg thermometers/Gauge/geiger counters)

(By the way, I have been making further small changes to Works records system history to observe that it was not just first interactive online spreadsheet , but first 3-D spreadsheet as well as first shared public spreadsheet. I have not monitored spreadsheet development closely enough in the past it seems to have noticed the level of re-invention that has occured! I left the world of spreadsheets after 1974 to enter the wonderful world of automatic bug solving (still a black art!).

ken 06:36, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Your comment to Rwwww

I've been away, back now only infrequently. Left a response for you, but not specific as you didn't identify the particular change that you were questioning. tooold 04:05, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] AfD nomination of Ken Dakin

I've nominated Ken Dakin, an article you created, for deletion. We appreciate your contributions, but in this particular case I do not feel that Ken Dakin satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion; I have explained why in the nomination space (see also "What Wikipedia is not" and the Wikipedia deletion policy). Your opinions on the matter are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ken Dakin and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~). You are free to edit the content of Ken Dakin during the discussion but should not remove the articles for deletion template from the top of the article; such removal will not end the deletion discussion. Thank you. John Vandenberg 04:50, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Redirect of Extinct Shared Public Spreadsheet

Hello, this is a message from an automated bot. A tag has been placed on Extinct Shared Public Spreadsheet, by Graeme Bartlett (talk · contribs), another Wikipedia user, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. The tag claims that it should be speedily deleted because Extinct Shared Public Spreadsheet is a redirect to a non-existent page (CSD R1).

To contest the tagging and request that administrators wait before possibly deleting Extinct Shared Public Spreadsheet, please affix the template {{hangon}} to the page, and put a note on its talk page. If the article has already been deleted, see the advice and instructions at WP:WMD. Please note, this bot is only informing you of the nomination for speedy deletion, it did not nominate Extinct Shared Public Spreadsheet itself. Feel free to leave a message on the bot operator's talk page if you have any questions about this or any problems with this bot. --Android Mouse Bot 2 10:22, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WikiCookie

Just stopping by with wikicookies for those editors who started new articles today. --Rosiestep (talk) 16:08, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Speedy deletion of Hugh I de Audley

A tag has been placed on Hugh I de Audley requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about a person or group of people, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is notable: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, articles that do not indicate the subject's importance or significance may be deleted at any time. Please see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as notable, as well as our subject-specific notability guideline for biographies.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding {{hangon}} to the top of the page that has been nominated for deletion (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag), coupled with adding a note on the talk page explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the article meets the criterion it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the article that would would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Lastly, please note that if the article does get deleted, you can contact one of these admins to request that a copy be emailed to you. Ironholds (talk) 13:30, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

As reviewing administrator, I think the article is just above the speedy level, but i am fairly sure it will be nominated for deletion , and probably will get deleted, unless you can find any additional information. Try some histories of the period, and the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, not just genealogical sites. Such sites are not considered reliable sources here, except perhaps for the basic facts of someones dates and the like--and even so they are not considered very accurate-- but certainly not to prove notability. DGG (talk) 16:26, 25 May 2008 (UTC)