Talk:Kava

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Userbox This user enjoys drinking Kava. † User:UBX/Kava

Contents 1 This is the most resent and detailed study done... 2 Contradiction 3 Hallucinogen? 4 Traditional Use 5 History? 6 Waqainabete study 7 Some highlights from US Pharmacist 8 Plant itself needs description 9 New Info 10 Legality should be Noted 11 Long-term Effects of Kava 12 Drugs similar to Kava 13 How many mg kavalactons in traditional beverages? 14 Link 8 is not directly linking 15 Where's the evidence? 16 Was going to make the same point

[edit] This is the most resent and detailed study done...

This is the most resent and detailed study done in vivo and vitro; rodent and man, that I have found to date. I 'think', it concludes what the herbalists suggested:, in as much that Kava is generally very safe providing one is careful about what other potent drugs one takes, due to its tendency to inhibit some of the liver enzymes.

When I get time I'll have a go at a proper edit, unless there is a heptologist out there just itching to review the paper and convert it into plain English. As a good article on enzymes exists I suppose it only needs to mention those drugs that could ruin your whole day, so as to give people some honest estimate of the potential danger and in the right context. If everything without a product label is deemed extremely dangerous people will just switch off. JAMES M. MATHEWS, AMY S. ETHERIDGE, JOHN L. VALENTINE, SHERRY R. BLACK, DONNA P. COLEMAN, PURVI PATEL, JAMES SO, AND LEO T. BURKA (July 20, 2005). PHARMACOKINETICS AND DISPOSITION OF THE KAVALACTONE KAWAIN:INTERACTION WITH KAVA EXTRACT AND KAVALACTONES IN VIVO AND IN VITRO (PDF). Drug Metabolism and Disposition. Retrieved on December 14, 2005. --Aspro 17:39, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

It might be interesting to notice that the word kava is similar to the word used for coffee in many languages (Turkish, Arabic, Polish, ...) which may confuse their speakers. Tsferreira 13:02, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

• I believe this may be why it is often referred to as kava kava. Mike19772007 19:28, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

No, Mike. Austronesian languages where kava originates do use reduplicative expressions. But they had absolutely no contact with any of the coffee growing places before the European era. "Madison Avenue" initiated the use of the term kava-kava. —Preceding unsigned comment added by DrKick (talk • contribs) 05:46, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Arabic speakers won't confuse Kava with Qahwa as one is spelt with 'K' (fulful kawah, or Kava Pepper) and the other is an emphatic 'Q' (qahwa) and is colloquially often pronounced 'gahwa' with a hard 'g'. Not sure about Turkish and Polish, but doubt there is much of an issue there either (at least with Turkish). - Anon —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.148.28.252 (talk) 13:57, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

I added material on the cause of the skin lesions. TraversBuda 00:36, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Contradiction

It seems contradictory to state that, "in the Western world, kava is marketed as an herbal remedy to ease the symptoms of stress, anxiety, and depression," and later on state that kava has been banned in France and Switzerland. It has also been banned in the UK. I'm inclined to edit the quote in the introduction to make it more specific, both chronologically (acknowledging use before bans), and geographically (where kava is banned). What do other people think? 212.32.97.24 20:12, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

How about:

In the Western world, kava is regarded more as an herbal remedy to ease the symptoms of stress, anxiety, and depression rather than a recreational drug.--86.143.163.73 22:25, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hallucinogen?

Someone added categories about hallucinogens to the article. Personally, I've never noticed any such effects in taking supplement pills (even up to 5 at one time, I weigh 230 lb or a bit over 100 kg). Are these effects only associated with traditional use? -- Pakaran

Hallucination or other delerium states are not associated with traditional use. It is possible for kavalactones to cause such states in extremely large doses, but without complex extraction techniques this is not feasible with ordinary kava. As a comparison, hallucinations can be caused by taking alcohol in large quantities as well, but alcohol is not usually considered to be a hallucinogen. Thus kava is usually termed an intoxicant, similar to alcohol. I don't think that this article should be included in the hallucinogen category and I am going to remove it. — Jéioosh 19:14, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

I think i may have added it. i'm fine with the removal for now, i'll look through my sources and come back here and discuss before changing the cats if i think that should be done. --Heah ^talk 20:33, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree, I have not found anything in my research that deems kava a hallucinogen. Psychoactive? yes. Hallucinogenic? No. TraversBuda 00:36, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

FYI, it can be, but I haven't seen any references for that fact.

It's true that kava isn't a hallucinogenic drug in general, but it's possible to experience hallucinations after consuming it. Different people will have very different experiences with kava, as with any psychoactive drug. Like marijuana, different strains of kava will have different effects after being consumed. In addition, users of kava will absorb it in different fashions and forms (chewing or brewing, extracts or pure root). It's important to keep this in mind
Litanss 23:04, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Traditional Use

There's no mention of cold-water infusions versus warm-water infusions and the possible pros and cons of each. I personally, am sitting here writing this entry, enjoying a cup of kava "tea" prepared in the traditional manner, except for the fact that i did the infusion with hot tap water, and i seem to be feeling the "psychoactive" effects as described. Should i make an edit to this effect? Morphine 20:17, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Traditional boiling water infusions are done because that is what has been found most efficacious - Such as with teas. Cold water infusions have there place too! It is not (one must presume) 'necessary' with Kava to prepare them via a hot infusion. Off hand, I can not think of anything wrong with a hot infusion. It may mean that certain waxes and things are released and consumed, but plant waxes (as far as I know) are usually benign, unless a 56 lb. block of it, drops on you from a great height; yet Kava is 'traditionally' prepared cold. There maybe a reason for this that has not been scientifically observed. The question should be I think: is there any harm from using hot water. To that question, I do not have an authoritative answer and I have not come across anything else that may answer it. As most chemical compounds dissolve in to hot solutions, it can be extrapolated by even the most neurological challenged that hot water will also work. Therefore it is obvious. So, when in doubt - leave it out!

Yes, hot water should not hurt. I looked up several of the kavalactones in the 11th edition of the Merck index. I'm looing at boiling points of 195 ish degrees. Several of the chemicals have decomposition points in the range of 212-261 degrees. Now, I'm assuming that the Merck Index uses Celcius, so: hot (about 100C) degree water should not hurt at all. What is important to note is that the traditional preparation results in a fair amount of fine particulate matter in the beverage. TraversBuda 00:36, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Kava is an interesting "remedy" to enhance your potency. (aphrodisiac) It relaxe the muscles so that the blood can flow better. The sexual arousal is coming quicker. --Fackel 16:32, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] History?

Does anyone know what the archeological history is of Kava? All I see is that it is "ancient" and some mythological study without any dates. Without it this article is not complete. Nephalim 05:11, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Given the large uncertainty over the mere origin of the people populating the islands of the western Pacific, and the fact that these people generally created few records, at least not until after several hundred years of European visitation, I hold little hope for kava history from that source. Archeologically, I suppose there's reason to hold out hope. But after about a month in Fiji and another month in French Polynesia, I would guess it unlikely. Both islands experience regular and frequent very heavy rainfall (I'm an Oregonian where we know rain) on steep mountain slopes with fast growing tropical vegetation which the rain frequently washes away, leading to significant landslides. I suppose there's reason to hope that more level areas might have something, perhaps from a time when more level ground was used in a drier climatic cycle...but that seems unlikely. — EncMstr 06:05, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

If they can date back Opium to Stone Age Mesopotamia, and alcohol back to cir. 10,000BC (at least), I am sure they can date Kava archeologically. It seems that it hasn't been done however. Drugs in ancient history, a current topic for the book I am writing, seems to be greeting with indifference rather than the interest it deserves. Kava isn't a very interesting drug, IMHO, however. I tried it once in the US where it is legal (at least it was) and all it did was give me nightmares. But that was Kava extract. Nephalim 02:48, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

It is still legal in the US--Dr.Worm 19:53, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Might I suggest, that in the long term it might be quicker to ask this question at the University of the South Pacific [1] It would in my opinion save all that time wasted in trying to authenticate leads given by people who 'read it in a book somewhere'. Archeological knowledge about alcohol opium etc. I would think is nearly always the by product of general archaeology. You might have to dig through some archives. (Can you claim research expenses against income tax where you live? If so a trip to the barmy warm South Sea Islands might be in order. After all, someone has to do this mundane data sifting, and perhaps even sampling the local verities to check the psychotropic and physical effects -all in the name of science of course!) Ronald Siegal is the only person I can recall, who has bothered to venture into remote places in an endeavor to find evidence of early coca leaf consumption ect., but he is a psychopharmacologist on a quest. See:Siegel, Ronald K (2005). Intoxication: The universal drive for mind-altering substances. Vermont: Park Street Press, pp vii. ISBN 1-59477-069-7. --Aspro 12:56, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Waqainabete study

I deleted the paragraph referring to Dr. Waqainabete's claims, since they don't bear on the question of toxicity. No one questioned that kava can cause temporary mental impairment. Inhumandecency 20:23, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Some highlights from US Pharmacist

http://www.uspharmacist.com/index.asp?show=article&page=8_1082.htm

"...a wide variety of biological activities have been attributed to kava, including sedation, local anesthesia, and analgesia (TABLE 1).(7,8) ...kava produces most of these actions via a small number of pharmacological mechanisms, namely blockade of voltage-gated sodium and calcium ion channels, reduced transmitter release, blockade of GABA and benzodiazepine receptors, and reduction in monoamine levels.(7)"

"Of the above mechanisms, voltage-gated cation channel blockade and facilitation of GABA transmission would best account for the antianxiety and sedative properties of kava."

"However, blockade of norepinephrine reuptake in the CNS by kava might be expected to increase alertness by stimulation of central adrenergic mechanisms. This may explain why kava, while sharing anxiolytic and sedative actions with the benzodiazepines, differs from them in having no adverse impact on cognitive functioning.(9,10) In fact, there is historical1 and scientific (10,11) evidence to indicate it may enhance memory and have a positive effect on attention and processing capacity."

"...The recently reported (8) inhibitory effect of some kavalactones on both COX-1 and COX-2 may contribute to the previously observed analgesic property of kava."

This article has a summary of all the good stuff that's missing from this wikipage. I'm not so good at citations, especially the large number that would happen if this could be integrated into the article. Thank You! --x1987x^(talk) 03:14, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Plant itself needs description

There is no information at all about Piper methysticum, although there is a taxbox. The plant is not described, other than being called a crop, and other than saying it is found in Oceania, there is no indication of habitat. Perhaps this information might make a separate article, but it would be helpful to have a botanical article. NaySay 21:29, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New Info

This month a WHO report showed there was no connection between KAVA and LIVER DAMAGE.--24.15.10.239 08:07, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

We are more used to reading badly organised medical archives; reading disordered minds is still beyond most of us ;-) Do please try and give a good references when posting info on the talk pages on Wikipedia, so that we don't just ignore it as more bits of nonsense that bored kids have added during the school vacation. Thanks for your interest though all the same.

This I think maybe the report to which you refer. Assessment of the Risk of Hepatotoxicity with Kava Products ISBN- 13 9789241595261--Aspro 09:19, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Legality should be Noted

A section should be added concerning where it is legal to purchase Kava. I was surprised to find out it is illegal in England right now (But not Wales for some reason...)--Dr.Worm 19:53, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

YES. And some time frames as well. I know from USAID that over 20 years ago they helped to have Kava classified on the GRAS (generally recognised as safe) list. A part of their presentation was film showing HE QEII drinking Kava. —Preceding unsigned comment added by DrKick (talk • contribs) 05:41, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Long-term Effects of Kava

There's no information about Kava's long-term effects. I've done some research and a lot of the side-effects are reversible but I havn't found any good general information. Also some side-effects like decreased muscle strength can be attributed to inactivity with heavy kava use etc. I might make an entry latter if I can gather enough information 75.108.232.88 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 00:05, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Yeah a lot of "side effects" associated with kava are actually more correlated with kava culture. Like kava drinkers in asia don't eat as well because kava is best consumed on an empty stomach. I don't really think there would be any longterm effects. To the extent that it effects you physically it goes away when you quite drinking kava. Kava is one of those awesome drugs like marijuana or to a lesser extent salvia because it really cant hurt you and to the extent that it has negative side-effects they're only temporary.

[edit] Drugs similar to Kava

In the article there is this line: "The feeling kava gives is a unique feeling like none other but most closely compared to that of Valium." I don't explicitly disagree with this but maybe if we're comparing it to other drugs that people are more familiar with we should point out it's similarity to marijuana, alcohol, and codine as well. If you read on erowid these are the four drugs it's commonly compared to. "All the benefits of marijuana and alcohol without any of the negatives." "Kind of like a mild codine buzz." "Reminds me of anti-anxiety meds." It's effects are much more than that of valium. In fact it's more often compared to alcohol than it is to valium, and next to alcohol it's compared to marijuana and pain-killers -- valium is probably the least associated drug out of the bunch; the last one that would come to mind when trying to compare it to something else. No biggie I might clarify latter in the article but it's wrong to compare kava explicitly with valium. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 157.182.186.181 (talk) 21:25, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Alcohol directly impairs all of your central nervous system immediately and even at very low doses. With Kava you have to dribk extremely high amounts to get that intoxicated effect. Kava works more on the spinal column than the higher center of the brain. As a result when taking kava your higher brain functions still work just as well as before, maybe even better. The only association kava has with alcohol is at extremely high doses where it starts to impair motor function, and most people fall asleep before they can drink that much.

Marijuana is a stimulator, kava is a tranquilizer. They really arer two different classes of drugs with completely different effects. Codeine is an opiate, which again has completely different effects.

However, Valium and Kava have very similar effects. A bowl of kava has been associated with taking 3 or 4 Valium pills at once. It stops anxiety, it gives a mild euphoric effect, it relaxes the muscles, and induces sleepiness. In fact it has been marketed as a safer alternative to Valium. Do a search on kava and Valium, you'll see that Valium gives one the closest effects to kava. 67.137.0.9 (talk) 17:51, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

It might be that if you're talking to a chronic drug user who uses Marijuana, mushrooms, cocaine, etc and is just experimenting with kava to get high, they will probably compare it to the drugs they know best. But those in the medical field who look at kava for beneficial reasons will probably compare it more to other tranquilizers such as Valium and Xanax. 67.137.0.9 (talk) 17:57, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

This is not to compare acetamenophin with kava in effect, but rather in liver toxicity. I was reading about acetamenophin is the cause of most drug-induced liver damage, and wondering if there could be some comparison of this over-the-counter drug with overdosing with kava (how much more would one have to take than the "safe" amount identified) as a context for how much of something causes liver damage. Most things one reads about kava make it sound like it's going to jump off the shelf, wrestle you down and kill you, while the "innocent" little bottle of Tylenol lurks in our medicine cabinets. I think the problem with a lot of information out there on drugs vs. supplements and vitamins is that their danger is presented in isolation. One does need to be careful with taking kava, but how careful? As careful as we are with Tylenol or as careful as we are with something more heavy-duty (tho if acetamenophin causes most liver damage...)? --Shmancy (talk) 17:24, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] How many mg kavalactons in traditional beverages?

Just curious on the main page it says "By comparison [to pills] the typical bowl of traditionally prepared kava beverage has around 250 mg of kavalactones." An average kava drink water infused uses around 5~10 grams of kava for a single drink. I'll admit that I don't know much about kava bowls, which seem to be like shots of kava, but for a drink considering 15% of kava root is kavalactons that would be 750mg - 1500mg. Is a "typical bowl" a relatively small amount of kava or is there some other reason for the 250mg figure? Again just curious I'm not trying to disagree with anyone, I just want to know. I guess most people do filter the large kava root out of drinks I don't lol but considering the root is 'absorbed' so to speak I think this would only be a nominal difference (people say drinks are just as strong whether you filter them or not, and all the fine particles stay in the water). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 157.182.186.219 (talk) 08:19, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

It's just what the drinks seem have been tested out as. There are several sources [2] [3] [4]. I would suggest that although kava powder tends to be around 15% kavalactones, not all of those kavalactones get extracted into the liquid. This may be why pharmacuetical companies use strong solvents instead of water to get a better extraction. 67.137.0.9 (talk) 17:38, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

The amount of kavalactones extracted by water from the root is much less than is in the actual root. This is because water is not nearly 100% efficient at this process. When making kava in a traditional manner, you may get about 15-20% (probably much less) of the kavalactones out of the root (or stump, or whatever kind of kava you are using), the rest is essentially thrown away. Using blenders, hot water and persistence, you can get that number up to around 30% I believe (or some substantially higher percent), but even then, you cannot extract all of the kavalactones out of the root with water, I donʻt think you can even get 100% out with heavy duty solvents which they use in the industry to extract for pills and tinctures. You would be able to consumer 100% of the kavalactones if you were to eat the root, however this tastes horrible (as if the drink wasnt bad enough...to some people) and even then the kavalactones are not 100% bioavailable if you were to do this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.105.213.165 (talk) 22:37, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Link 8 is not directly linking

Its not a link to an article, but to a main page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.194.166.77 (talk) 04:15, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Citation 8 fixed.--Aspro (talk) 16:58, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Where's the evidence?

Where is the evidence that kavalectones supposedly build up in your system due to being oil based? Everything medical I have ever read said the exact opposite, that there is no buildup, nor is there tolerance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.240.97.196 (talk) 21:43, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Was going to make the same point

"Since kavalactones are oil based, the more often kava is drunk the more it builds up in a person's system and the more potent the euphoric effects become." Haven't the research, but if kava has a maoi property that would be more likely to account for the increased response. 68.219.131.83 (talk) 19:48, 15 April 2008 (UTC)