Talk:Katyn massacre

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Talk:Katyn massacre/Archive 1

Contents

[edit] Baltimore photo

  1. Photo is very poor.
  2. NY memorial is better. [1]

The Einsatzgruppen memo that mentions the Nazis being the guilty party - who controlled this memo ( after the war)? Who controlled all of the captured Einsatzgruppen memos - Russians? 159.105.80.141 17:42, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Odkryto grzebień z nazw--HanzoHattori 18:09, 21 September 2007 (UTC)iskami Polaków pochowanych w Bykowni

Grzebień z wyrytymi nazwiskami Polaków zamordowanych przez NKWD i pochowanych w lesie w podkijowskiej Bykowni odnaleźli pracujący tam specjaliści Rady Ochrony Pamięci Walk i Męczeństwa - poinformował w piątek polskich dziennikarzy przebywający na Ukrainie sekretarz ROPWiM Andrzej Przewoźnik.[2] --HanzoHattori 18:07, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

also someone archive this page. --HanzoHattori 18:09, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Could someone please translate the authenticated documents from Russian into English? Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.202.122.253 (talk) 08:07, 17 October 2007 (UTC)


[edit] 'Incident' vs. 'Massacre'

On the archive page here, someone repeats a deranged statement made by Ruy Lopez, who wrote: "Soviet troops shooting Polish army officers is a massacre. US troops shooting Korean civilians is an incident." You can see this statement on an older version of his user page here.

I would like to point out that at No Gun Ri, between 8 and 150 civilians were killed. At Katyń, around 18,384 were killed. Assuming 150 deaths at No Gun Ri, the difference between the two is a factor of 122.56.

The contrast between the two is therefore a valid one. -- 87.98.217.43 (talk) 03:35, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Also, No Gun Ri was the action of some panicky troops, while Katyn was approved at the highest levels of the Soviet regime.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.10.6.47 (talk) 19:50, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Estimates"

The text says now that the "estimates of the number of dead range from 15,000[2][3] to 21,768.[4]". This is very misleading.

First of all we must decide whether we care about all estimates or only about the credible ones. As an analogy, one can point to the Nazi camps Majdanek and Auschwitz. Many estimates were made throughout the decades, most of them clearly erroneous. Thus, for a long time an estimate of 4,000,000 victims in Auschwitz was rather widespread (especially through the Soviet-dominated Europe - but not exclusively). So it is for Majdanek, where there was an estimate of 1.5 million victims (contrast this with the current estimate of 78,000 victims). Then there are deniers' "estimates"...

Thus, one could write something like "estimates of the number of dead in Auschwitz range from 70,000 to 4,000,000", and that would be true in a sense that there are such estimates. But this would mislead the reader unnecessarily.

Now, there is no controversy about the number of the victims of Katyn massacre (when the term is used in the extended fashion, to denote all the victims murdered according to the 5.3.1940 order). It is about 22,000, take or add a thousand.

Now, when dilettantes write about the Katyn massacre, they often have in mind numbers like "14,000" or "15,000". But those denote only the number of Polish victims from the three camps. They ignore about 7000 or so victims from the prisons. So one cannot really compare the numbers like 15,000 and 22,000, saying that they're just "estimates". It's apples and oranges - 15,000 is for the victims from the three camps, 22,000 is for the victims from the three camps AND from an unknown number of prisons.

So I will edit this portion accordingly.--Sergey Romanov (talk) 12:28, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Trials, etc.

I have heavily amended the Leningrad trial section, which was basically full of misinformation and was relying on Holocaust "revisionist" sources. I have used the book "Katynskij sindrom", written by two Russian Katyn historians and a former head of the Military Prosecutor's Office Katyn team who have actually examined the Leningrad trial record.

Also, putting Nuremberg part in "Soviet-run trials" section is weird, isn't it? Thus, renamed. The Savenkov part was also flawed. --Sergey Romanov (talk) 13:16, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Duere/Diere

JFYI, in Poland there is a book by almost the same authors:

Inessa Jażborowska, Anatolij Jabłokow, Jurij Zoria, Katyń: Zbrodnia Chroniona Tajemnicą Państwową.

http://biblionetka.pl/ks.asp?id=58705

I've been told it's more or less the same as Katynskij sindrom, so Polish colleagues can try to check Diere info in it.

And one more thing: I spell it "Diere" because it's been so spelled in contemporary English-language news items posted at Axishistory Forum, the authors actually spell it "Duere" (but still not "Duerer", as in one of Axishistory pages).

However, I see that A.V.Prusin in Holocaust and Genocide Studies [3] also calls him "Duere" (if you can't access the page, you can google for "arno duere" and its cache will be one of the search results), so perhaps this is the spelling we should use after all.

--Sergey Romanov (talk) 02:28, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] NKVD/Gestapo filmed Katyn Masscre together ? Movie might exist-alledged reason for Russia's refusal to reveal most of documents related to the atrocity

[4]

Polish foregin ministry is going to ask Russia's government to reveal documents and ask if the movie exists.--Molobo (talk) 15:09, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Please Explain?

This paragraph is atrocious, could someone fix.

Once, many people drank Coffee. Energetically, they went running, as though Kenyans were feeding on their shoelaces. 400 more Kenyans suddenly flew in towards Nairobi whilst performing acrobatic manuevers. This caused Basshunter to asphyxiate Kenya's oil magnate, Derrick Von Dusseldorf IV. Accordingly, Tanzania launched nuclear embryoes to embargo Basshunter.

Eritrea "diplomatically" decided that all Tanzanians should wear napalm. Unfortunately they burned Asmara when attempting to exterminate Jeffery Garcia. Resulting protests irritated officials in Niger, who proceeded to enact "the countermeasures". Because of these "Countermeasures", protesters consumed Milkshakes, resulting in widespread hyperactivity and dynamic death.

Ruairidh Maxwell hadn't —Preceding unsigned comment added by Captain Octopus (talk • contribs) 02:37, 13 April 2008 (UTC)