Talk:Kateda

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[edit] Grandmaster Tagashi

the article says '1976, on the 22nd of January, Tagashi died at the age of 89' - has anyone see the guy ? LuJe 12:26, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Link to Liu Seong Kuntao?

This article states that "Kateda [...] may just be another re-formulation of Pentjak Silat or related Kuntao, Kuntao Silat or Liu Seong Kuntao." While Kuntao and Kuntao Silat are (if not redundant) vague enough that they could point to any number of origins, Liu Seong Kuntao is a specific system that the author claims is "related" to Kateda (and Sindo). Is there any verifiable link between Kateda and Liu Seong Kuntao? I don't see one anywhere in this article. If I don't see a response to this question within a few days, I'll go ahead and delete the Liu Seong Kuntao reference from this article, given that there does not appear to be a connection between the two arts. -Erik Harris 13:23, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Read the text you've quoted. No claim is made that Kateda "is" related to Liu Seong Kuntao. The quote says "may" be, as in recognising the possibility. Quite different meaning. The statement exists in the article because it is very hard to verify the origins of Kateda, and hopefully the wonderful Wiki process will guide us to the right answer. Thanks to the author below for the information. Punanimal 10:43 14 July 2006 (UTC)
"May" be a link, based on what? Unless there's some reason to suspect a link, the Liu Seong Kuntao ("LSKT" for brevity) reference has no relevance in the article. The fact that LSKT is a combination of Chinese and Indonesian arts is certainly not enough - I can think of half a dozen other arts that fit that description, but which have no known relationship with LSKT or Kateda, and therefore have no relevance in Wikipedia articles about either system. Mentioning LSKT twice as a possibly related (or parent) art to Kateda, without any (fairly solid) reason to claim a possible link, appears to be an attempt at legitimizing Kateda by mentioning it in context of a known art - mentioning LSKT without claiming any possibility of relation would have the same appearance. -Erik Harris 12:40, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
Chill, dude! I see your point but there's no attempt to "legitimize" Kateda, as you call it. I'm simply trying to document an art that's very hard to find out about. A comparison or an attempt to identify commonality is merely that. I'd actually consider myself a bit of a cynic, having given up because of various issues you can find in the article. There's very little evidence out there (even if you can read Indonesian) and I admit freely that the article draws upon my own personal experiences from 1988 to 1990, the Kateda book that I still own and whatever Google turns up. There's a problem here, which is that Wikipedia is fantastic for learning about things that are hard to find out about but that documenting such things is almost impossible. Wikipedia is rapidly becoming a treasure-trove of lost or obscure knowledge. On that basis, I'd hoped that by writing this article, it would help me get to the bottom of what Kateda is, where it comes from and what other arts, if any, it is related to. I really genuinely have no way of proving or disproving if LSKT is related to Kateda and if it isn't, then fine! People I practiced with said it was, but it was nearly 20 years ago and I've lost touch with them. There's no soapbox or agenda here. Let's simply get to the truth on this topic, all the time allowing for that fact that Kateda remains incredibly obscure and largely undocumented. Punanimal 17:36, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

The Kateda movements mentioned in the article as "Students practice the basic movements, numbered 1 to 10, a series of combination movements, numbered 11 to 20, and Central Power." are related to karate and bear no resemblance to Liu Seong Kuntao or Pentjak Silat. Seekthetruth 11:50, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for this. If Kateda is related to Karate, then how do we reconcile this with the art's claimed Tibetan origins, back in the mists of time? I understand that Karate is quite a recent art in comparison to the claims made (not by me) about Kateda's age? Punanimal 10:48 14 July 2006 (UTC)
The article states that at least some believe Kateda is a linguistic combination of Karate and Tenaga Dalam. Without a more plausible explanation of the system's name, that one seems to make sense (the "seven secrets" explanation, as written, isn't terribly plausible). As for reconciling with the art's claimed origins; it doesn't have to reconcile if the claimed origins aren't legitimate. :) Many arts, even totally legitimate ones, have histories that aren't entirely true. It's common in many Asian cultures to blend truth, mythology, legend, and hyperbole into stories of the past, and many of these stories have been carried forward as literal histories for martial arts systems, even if there's nothing actually literal about them. -Erik Harris 12:40, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Whatever the connection, Kateda's still a decent way of learning to beat the crap out of groups of people if recquired in order of self defence... perhaps teaching should be organised into intensive training courses - in combination to weight training...—Preceding unsigned comment added by J.ranatunga (talk • contribs)

[edit] "Read like an advert"?

I wrote the bulk of the article - and I'm a sceptic! I'm especially pleased with the Controversy section. Punanimal 13:22, 4 Oct 2006 (UTC)

You might want to put this question to "Fire Star" on his talk page, and invite him to discuss his assertion here on the Kateda talk page, since he's the one who added that banner. -Erik Harris 17:52, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
The following is the reply I gave to the same question at User talk:Punanimal:
Hi, thanks for the note. There are a couple of worrying things about the article for me. The first being that the article is largely unsourced, and that it even says that it is based at least in part on the personal experiences of one or more editors. Reporting that sort of experience is proscribed by WP:No original research. If it weren't, I guarantee the Chinese martial arts articles would be a lot more interesting! The second thing (and what led to my thought that is seemd a bit adverty) is prose like: "Kateda's intense focus on breathing and..." where a descriptor like intense is a bit much for an encyclopaedia article, which language tends to be drier. There is a lot of that in the article, and it stands out to my eye as out of place. I'm glad there is a controversies section, but a problem is that it seems also to be largely unsourced, and even has some speculation which we also should avoid. I haven't done any research on the subject myself (which is why I haven't done any copy editing) but these were my impressions on being asked to look at the article. I hope this helps, drop me a line any time. --Fire Star 火星 16:41, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
To sum up, my main concerns are suspicions about the article's provenance and the somewhat florid prose. --Fire Star 火星 20:47, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV!

Some strongly-biased edits have shown up recently. And people accused me of making the article sound like an advert! I remind people that I am a sceptic, having practiced Kateda for 2 years 1988 to 1990. The primary source for what I wrote was the Kateda book, plus what I could find on Google. Some personal experiences are included, in the hope that over time the Wiki process might substantiate or refernce them. However, I do not express a view about the relative merits of Kateda versus other disciplines, no whether it is a cult or not. I'll watch this with interest! Punanimal 10:22, 25 Nov 2006 (UTC)


[edit] == My own experience ==

I was involved in Kateda in the very early 90's for a short time in NW London and had a copy of the infamous book which I have long since lost. I remember the first half of the book was a break down of Kateda as a martial art/form; the second half was basically the inane ramblings of a madman.

The book aside, Kateda at the time did seem a credible martial art and in fairness they always worked us hard during the training sessions which were 2 hours long and twice a week. I certainly remember the feats of strength by the instructors, having bricks broken across their stomachs and chests, being hit front and back with wooden poles and bashing a steel plate on the floor with their fists - all of this was definately real and made the whole thing seem credible. The instructors were all incredibly fit and my own fitness and stamina went up dramatically as well.

There were only a few moves that were practised over and over again. I'm not sure how effective it would have been as a martial art but I remember being quite impressed with the simplicity of the style having tried karate and found it rather complex. Kateda was never put forward (at least where I trained) as an 'aggressive' martial art but seemed more geared up to individual self defence. I never saw any sparring at any level - instructor or student.

I agree that students went up the grades very quickly, I made green belt in only a few weeks. I was told that I would be a black belt in less than a year. One guy went from brown belt to 1st grade instructor in only a couple of months.

It's only looking back on it after the best part of 20 years and remembering the exposee (which I was involved in when TV cameras came to a training session under the guise of filming a series about martial arts) that I now realise the whole thing was a con.

I attended two 'grandtrainings', one which lasted for a day the 'grandmaster' himself made an appearance and the second which lasted a whole weekend - it cost £60 and the instructors were very insistent on us attending this, they almost snatched the money from my hands when it was time to pay! The weekend itself was in October, we were camped in a huge marquee and fed a starvation diet of rice and bread. It was then I became really suspicious and after the exposee I left. I remember hearing about 'grandtrainings' which lasted a week but was never involved in that.

I never witnessed any of the allegations of sexual harrassment, I only heard about them after I stopped going. I certainly don't remember instructors driving around in 'souped up black cars' (our own instructor had a very ordinary Saab!) but it doesn't mean to say that none of this went on. The Kateda Car Club does ring a bell though.

I can't comment on the history of Kateda as a martial art but I certainly had the impression (with the benefit of hindsight) that the whole thing was made up and was most definately a con.

Basically that's all I have to contribute, it would be interesting to hear from anyone else who got sucked into what turned out to be a scam.

Mspice2215 08:37, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

HI Mspice2215 - maybe we trained together. I was based in West London and trained in Acton and Ealing. I attended a "grand training" similar to the one you describe and whilst it was a long time ago, I recall having a similar reaction. Would be interested to share experiences, but don't know how to make direct contact except via this public forum. Punanimal 22:58, 19 May 2007 (UTC)


Hello,

I trained with a gentleman here in the USA. Our instructor, a black third degree black belt had lived and trained in Kateda while living in London. He too, had the infamous book and we studied direct from it.

As mentioned by everyone, the training was very intense and at 40, had me in the best pyhsical shape of my life. We did the bricks, steel plate punching and practiced the few moves. The forms, if I remember correctly were close to 7 movements.

Were were trained in total defensive nature, with our instructors point of view being that the art was designed to keep you safe in times of danger. Strong enough to pick up your family members and carry them to safety and with enough defenesive skill to ward off attacks when needed.

I do not think the training itself to be a scam although Grandmasters of various traditonal martial arts who came to see our class felt otherwise. Our only fees were nominal to the instructor who claimed his role was to spread the knowlege and practice of Kateda. Due to a number of reasons, classes ended after a bit over three years. My own feelings about the instructor as a person aside, when the training was at it's peak, it was marvelous.


Kagan —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.160.121.82 (talk) 14:03, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes I agree with your comments about the training side, it was a fantastic high impact aerobic workout and I certainly achieved a level of fitness that I haven't had since (I was in my late 20's when I trained) and as I said in my earlier comment the physical feats that I witnessed (breaking of bricks etc.) was definately real so there must have been something in it as a martial art. My views about it being a scam are with the benefit of hindsight, I only became suspicous when instructors were virtually snatching money from our hands when it came to 'grandtraining' and we were told that it was pretty much compulsory to attend. I believe that Kateda lives on under another name and I guess they will have cleaned their act up by now, maybe a current member would like to comment? Mspice2215 (sorry I can't get the autosignature to work)82.34.55.108 (talk) 10:52, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Hello I never trained in Kateda but I lived in London in the 1980s and a friend of my then flatmate trained in Kateda. This friend (we'll call her A) was an extremely attractive young woman in her early 20s and she turned up at my place with some unidentified pills that Lionel had given her to take at a special women only class to "enhance her performance". Lionel was the teacher of the women only class, one of a series of classes he had arranged for young attractive women because they "were at a higher risk of sexual assault than other women". I have no idea what the pills were but according to A, Lionel was also fond of sharing Bolivian marching powder with the young women who had done especially well at these special women only classes, so you can draw your own conclusions. One striking feature of these special classes for young women, according to A, was that the women had to wear very short skirts "so as not to restrict the movement of their legs". When Lionel attempted to get the women to train not only in short skirts but also wearing high heels "so they would know how to defend themselves if attacked while wearing high heels in real life" and also pressurised the women to pose for photographs alongside him in their skirts and heels on the bonnet of his sports car, A decided that she'd had enough and went to the press along with some other disaffected trainees. A TV expose of Lionel and Kateda followed. I remember seeing the programme and it featured a man who had irreversible arthritis in his hands as a result of hitting a metal plate repeatedly. The programme did not mention the drugs aspect, although I understand that Lionel was under investigation by the police over this issue and I wonder if this is why he left the country? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.35.35.150 (talk) 10:07, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] From article page

"Very little is written in the public domain about Kateda, so what follows is told from firsthand experiences of training. The only official book about the art, written by Lionel Nasution, is now out of print and impossible to find. Research for this article mixes firsthand experiences with what little can be gleaned from the internet. Citations are given wherever possible but beyond this it is difficult to Wikify this article further. Kateda practitioners past and present are invited to contribute."

Rich Farmbrough, 18:09 23 December 2007 (GMT).