Talk:Kaspar Hauser

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New information in German Television ZDF:http://www.zdf.de/ZDFde/inhalt/25/0,1872,2026873,00.html and http://www.zdf.de/ZDFde/inhalt/31/0,1872,2027199,00.html

Dietmar


For those not reading German, this essentially states the following: [1] six specimens of presumably more certain provenance than the bloodstain on Kaspar Hauser's underpants, including specimens taken from his hair and hat and trousers, were genetically sequenced. All six specimens matched one another exactly. [2] they were compared with the sequence from the blood on the underpants and did not match. [3] but on this basis it is premature to state that Kaspar Hauser either was or was not a descendant of the House of Baden. (editorial comment: but the DNA evidence would seem to argue against it, we need to see details on the exact mismatches). [4] the article proposes that the results should be compared with the sequence from a specimen from "Astrid von Medinger" ( who is presumably the late Astrid von Zallinger-Stillendorf who married Wilhelm Michael von Medinger in 1982, and who is decended from Stephanie de Beauharnais, who would have been Kaspar Hauser's mother if indeed he had been the hereditary prince of Baden, as shown below) (presumably this would be mtDNA on the basis of the second descent shown below). - it does not seem that this analysis has been performed (?)



(1) Karl Ludwig Friedrich of Baden (1786 - 1818)
& Stephanie de Beauharnais (1789 - 1860)
  (2) Josephine of Baden (1813 - 1900)
  & Karl Anton von Hohenzollern (1811 - 1885)
    (3) Leopold of Hohenzollern (1835 - 1905)
    & Antonia of Portugal (1845 - 1913)
      (4) Karl Anton von Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen (1868 - 1919)
      & Josephine of Belgium (1872 - 1958)
        (5) Marie Antoinette von Hohenzollern (1896 - 1965)
        & Egon Eyrl von und zu Waldgries und Liebenaich (1892 - 1981)
          (6) Stephanie Eyrl von und zu Waldgries und Liebenaich (1928 - 1998)
          & Josef von Zallinger-Stillendorf (1920 - )
            (7) Astrid von Zallinger-Stillendorf (1954 - 2002)
            & Wilhelm Michael von Medinger (1945 - )
    (3) Marie of Hohenzollern (1845 - 1912)
    & Philippe of Flanders (1837 - 1905)
      (4) Josephine of Belgium (1872 - 1958)
      & Karl Anton von Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen (1868 - 1919)
        (5) Marie Antoinette von Hohenzollern (1896 - 1965)
        & Egon Eyrl von und zu Waldgries und Liebenaich (1892 - 1981)
          (6) Stephanie Eyrl von und zu Waldgries und Liebenaich (1928 - 1998)
          & Josef von Zallinger-Stillendorf (1920 - )
            (7) Astrid von Zallinger-Stillendorf (1954 - 2002)
            & Wilhelm Michael von Medinger (1945 - )

-- Someone else 18:42, 9 Sep 2003 (EDT) ---

Astrid von Zallinger-Stillendorf = Astrid von Medinger, died in 2002 one week before the film started in December 2002. Why? But I know that she had children (two girls). This analysis with Kaspar Hauser has been performed to 95%, but not 100%. Why? mtDNA-Variation? You can buy the film by ZDF (last 10 minutes) and by http://www.headfilm.ch/films/01786.html

Out of different sources altogether six samples are taken: Hat and trousers Kaspar Hauser's and of its hair curls, partially from the private deduction of the Ansbacher chief presiding judge Feuerbach. The analysis lasts long, the results in the laboratory is for safety's sake several times examined. The genetic code is in all six samples the same. The DNA evidence would seem to argue not (!) against it that Kaspar Hauser was a descendant of the House of Baden. Dietmar ---

Contents

[edit] Pro-homeopathic tractate removed

I removed this part, which is effectively pro-homepathic POV and mostly irrelevant to the article. It is also possibly a copyvio but google search pointed only to restricted pages. - Skysmith 12:33, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

"Perhaps the most remarkable example of extreme sensitiveness to medicines is the case of the mysterious and unfortunate Kaspar Hauser, who was found by the police aimlessly wandering about the streets of Nuremberg in the spring of 1828. Dr. Dudgeon has told his story in the Homœopathic World, of October, 1897. From this we learn that he was placed under the care of Professor Daumer who taught him to speak, and gradually elicited from him that he had hitherto lived in a dark, underground cellar, had been fed on black bread and water, and had been deprived of all intercourse with his follow-creatures. At first he had no more intelligence than a baby ; but he learned rapidly. For a long time he was painfully affected by bright light and loud noises. He could distinguish colours in the dark, and felt acutely the slightest blow or touch. Perfumes would bring on convulsive attacks. For long he would not eat anything but black bread on which he had been reared. He was very subject on convulsive attacks, and become seriously ill. In his illness he was under the care of Dr. Preu's article -published in the eleventh volume of the Archiv für die homœopatische Heilkunst- that Dr. Dudgeon's account is taken. Kaspar Hauser was sensitive in many ways. His vision was so acute that he could the berries on a bunch of elderberries at a distance of one hundred paces. He could distinguish colours in total darkness, and he saw best in twilight. He was clairvoyant, and had many premonitions. He foretold his attempted assassination of the 17th of October, 1829. (He was actually assassinated a few months later.)

The special interest to homœopathists in the historic case of Kaspar Hauser lies in the fact that he exemplifies a sensitiveness to remedies which occurs in many persons to a degree only somewhat less exaggerated than his. And the reason I here refer to the case is to show that strength of dose, in the allopathic sense, he not necessarily anything to do with either the causation or the cure of conditions.

An attempt is sometimes made to explain homœopathic action on the hypothesis that remedies "have opposite effects in large and small doses," and that, consequently, homœopathic remedies cure in small doses what they cause in large ones.

This argument is very specious on the face of it, but cases like that of Kaspar Hauser upset it entirely. For the remedies were all given to him in more or less infinitesimal form, and yet they produced not only curative but pathogenetic or disease symptoms, and it was not necessary for him even to take the remedy-olfaction was quite sufficient to set up their action. The 30th centesimal potency of Hahnemann represents one decillional part of the original substance. Understanding this, let us take one or two examples of the action of remedies on this youth. I quote Dr. Dudgeon's account :-

"Smelling at the 30th dilution of Sepia caused a great number of the symptoms recorded by Hahnemann and some others. The voice became rough, as from catarrh. Speech was slow ; gait unsteady. In the afternoon a febrile attack like that recorded in the pathogenesis of Sepia. Sudden, burning eruption on the neck that declined towards evening. Face very red, veins of arms and hands distended. When walking in the evening felt as though ants crawled up his legs to the pit of the stomach, when he felt pressure on the chest ; profuse sweat, pain in the limbs. The febrile attack lasted an hour, and ended with a violent rigor. Great prostration next day, pressure in the forehead. In bed, before falling asleep, tearing pains in joints and other parts of the body. Night-sweet so profuse he had to change his night-shirt. Second day, in evening, ringing like a bell in right ear, with headache ; then he felt as if a drop fell down on the right side of the head, whereupon the ringing ceased but the headache increased."

All the above was the result of one drug impact of the decillional dilution of a preparation of Indian ink-the dried contents of that the question of "large" and "small" in homœopathic drug-dosage is entirely relative. The "dose" of Sepia which Casper Hauser received was absolutely beyond the powers of chemical science to measure or estimate, and yet it was enough to bring out striking features of the Sepia effects already pictured by Hahnemann in his own provings.

Now let us take another example. In August 1829, Kaspar Hauser was gaining flesh. He objected to becoming fat, and Dr. Preu treated him for it. Hahnemann had pointed out that Calcarea is useful in the obesity of youthful subjects. Dr. Preu gave Kaspar Hauser an olfaction of Calcarea 30, and with this result : Immediately there occurred cough and compression of head ; strong smell from the mouth ; and he had a feeling of debility after stool. On the second day his clothes had already become looser. He became excoriated by walking and riding ; loathing at meat ; great falling out of hair ; swelling of veins of hands, and heat of face.

Here we have a remedy which, whilst correcting the trouble for which it was given, produces, in addition, it own characteristic symptoms. There was no question here of a large dose causing symptoms and a small dose curing symptoms, for one and the same dose did both.

The attempted assassination of October 17, 1829, interrupted the series of observations. The wound and the shock threw Kaspar back into his previous condition of hypersensitiveness to all external impressions, and it was long before he recovered from the effects. His restoration was chiefly effected by mesmerism, to which he was extremely responsive ; and Lycopodium was also of use.

After this Kaspar Hauser passed out of the care of Professor Daumer and Dr. Preu; and a second attempt at assassination terminated the career of this mysterious and interesting youth."

[edit] Esgataron of the Shwolishay regiment?

I've heard that the letter Kaspar carried was addressed to 'The Captain of the 4th Esgataron of the Shwolishay regiment'. What does that mean? Is it simply the same thing said in the article only in another language, or is it total nonsense? ---Daimetreya 23:14, 16 July 2006 (UTC)Daimetreya

Esgataron/Eskataron is a distorted version of the French 'Escadron' (=squadron). Shwolishay should really be Schwolische, which is a distorted version of 'Cheveaulègers', another German military word coming from French, it means light cavalry. So it's the same thing as the one in the article, only in the German of the early 19th century. SáT 23:55, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Attempted Murder Weapon

The weapon used in the first murder attempt on Kaspar was not exactly an axe, but a sharp cutting instrument that resembles a large butcher knife. Kaspar, after the incident, managed to produce his own drawing of this weapon. You can find this information in Jeffrey Masson's book "The Wild Child," which provides a comprehensive overview of Kaspar and his life history. The book itself, its primary part (from which this piece of information is derived), is a translation of Feuerbach's contemporary account. The article could also be improved if the detailed aspects were expanded. LifeScience

[edit] Feral Child?

I noticed this article in the Feral Child category, but I really don't think it applies. He wasn't found in the wild and seems to have had at least basic communication skills? (My own analysis-- which has no place in the article, of course-- makes me suspect that he was retarded or afflicted with some kind of Pervasive Development Disorder and was raised in a box to hide the "shame") CatherS 08:26, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Is it permissible to just take out the link, or do we have to do something else to make sure it's not included? FlaviaR (talk) 01:34, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Good question-- I think we should punt and ask for help. I'm noticing it's not just WP that has him classed as feral, thought a website called feralchildren.com isn't necessarily a valid source. I'm invoking the helpme template on my talk page, will report back. CatherS (talk) 10:16, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
Admin agreed-- I have removed the category. CatherS (talk) 22:34, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
He's usually counted among lists of feral children, just as Genie is. There's certainly a distinction between those and ones in the wild, but this would be better added as a note than they be excluded. Note that Genie's article is in fact called Genie (feral child). Salopian (talk) 17:00, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] A mystery perhaps too demystified?

Kaspar Hauser is one of those enigmas of history, but the current version of this article makes his story too obviously reducible to a case study of a Narcissistic personality disorder. And maybe it was. However, this presentation changes the mystery of this episode from a situation that any reader would find mysterious to one where the reader is forced to wonder why were all of these people fooled by this run-of-the-mill con game? -- llywrch (talk) 08:13, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

...why were all of these people fooled by this run-of-the-mill con game? — There are several answers to this question:
  • Not all of them were fooled. A contemporary Berlin criminalist, J. F. K. Merker, published several articles between 1830 and 1834 regarding Hauser as a humbug, Stanhope realized that he had been deceived, and Feuerbach apparently changed his mind as well.
  • Pathological swindlers are often very successful due to their poise, even if they are of low intelligence. They fully live in their roles and never give any sign of a bad conscience when they are lying.
  • The political circumstances of the European Restoration period did not allow for any participation of ordinary people in political matters, thus they were receptive for such a seemingly miraculous story simply because of the lack of any other public interest.
  • The Romantic zeitgeist also contributed to the myth. It has been pointed out that there are novels of the time (e. g. by Jean Paul) anticipating several motifs of the Hauser legend.
--Luchresi (talk) 01:06, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to add that this article seems to be setting out to prove, and in a pretty irritating tone to be honest, that Kaspar Hauser absolutely was a fraud, when there actually remains a huge amount of mystery surrounding the case. Only the most doubt-inducing evidence is provided. I'm just pointing out that any perceptive reader will easily be able to pick out the bias in the article - it does seem slightly obnoxious at times and definitely seems more interested in "demystifying" than giving the facts as they are. -Cliff

  • "… there actually remains a huge amount of mystery surrounding the case." — Yes and no. There is no doubt that he was a liar, that his tale about his imprisonment was a lie and that his fatal wound was self-inflicted. We do not know, however, where he came from and who his parents were. As to his personality and his motives, there remains some scope for different interpretations.
  • "Only the most doubt-inducing evidence is provided." — It's reality that provided only the most doubt-inducing evidence.
  • "… it does seem slightly obnoxious at times" — That's not the article's fault. Kaspar Hauser was a notorious liar, as all his caretakers have realized sooner or later. There is, for example, a (maybe "slightly obnoxious") note by Feuerbach's hand that was found in his legacy (Ivo Striedinger: Neues Schrifttum über Kaspar Hauser, p. 449):
"Caspar Hauser ist ein pfiffiger, durchtriebener Kauz, ein Schelm, ein Taugenichts, den man todmachen sollte."
Translation: "Caspar Hauser is a smart scheming codger, a rogue, a good-for-nothing that ought to be killed."
  • "… and definitely seems more interested in 'demystifying' than giving the facts as they are." — The article does give the facts as they are, with references to reputable sources. It is these facts that are demystifying.
--Luchresi (talk) 16:56, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
The tone of this response is slightly obnoxious. There's a reason this is still a mystery, which the known facts do not completely dispel. Huangdi (talk) 14:59, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
No. Just because you believe that this is a mystery, doesn't prove that there is a reason for this belief. You should form your opinion according to the facts rather than vice versa.--Luchresi (talk) 23:03, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
This article does actually seem pretty biased. If there's a belief that there's a mystery to the case (as the article states), that belief should continue throughout the article. And Huangdi doesn't have to prove there's a mystery. The burden of proof falls on the one who wants to definitively state something as fact - not the one who says he doesn't know.
I agree that Hauser seems to have been a pathological liar, but since there's no overwhelmingly obvious proof that his circumstances were imagined, I think we should err on the side of caution. - Yggdriedi (talk) 01:01, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
The article quotes an expert opinion: "If he had been living since childhood under the conditions he describes, he would not have developed beyond the condition of an idiot; indeed he would not have remained alive long." That's the proof. It doesn't matter that many non-experts believe in Hauser's nonsense story. Wikipedia is (should be) based on reliable sources.--Luchresi (talk) 16:08, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Rogue codger

I have removed the following bolded section from the article. It doesn't seem to make sense.

"This certainly was a grievous loss to him — although Feuerbach had apparently stopped believing in Hauser; at least he had written a note (to be found in his legacy) which read: "Caspar Hauser is a smart scheming codger, a rogue, a good-for-nothing that ought to be killed."

So Feuerbach was in support of Hauser because he was a liar? I think whoever put that in the article misread the meaning of smart as used in that translation - or, perhaps, misread the context. Feuerbach was clearly not complimenting Hauser. - Yggdriedi (talk) 01:01, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Feuerbach used to believe in Hauser's story and helped him a lot, but he changed his mind by the end of his life. Being disappointed and feeling deceived, he wrote that note, which was found in his legacy; but he didn't openly condemn him. Hauser had more serious trouble with schoolmaster Meyer, and that's why Feuerbach's death was a grievous loss to him.--Luchresi (talk) 15:49, 6 May 2008 (UTC)