User talk:Karmafist/Archive20

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[edit] From Me

Karmafist, I think we have a mutual respect overall. We had some awful disagreements when we both first started here, but resolved those differences and you even nominated me in my successful bid for adminship. I voted for your reinstatement as an admin as well, and do not think you should have been de-adminned at the time you were. I want to make this comment public but it is not done to scould, start an argument or to lecture you. I therefore state my opinion on some of the things going on with you in the following way. I do not think you should be linking in your welcome template or in your signature to your manifesto. Please just use a non-linking signature and a a regular welcome template (modified if desired, but not linking to areas that may be of conflicts or divisive). It really is important to Wikipedia that we do all we can to be neutral, and this can never be more true than when we are greeting newbies. You are a smart person as clearly shown in your comments and in most of your edits, so if this were to be resolved now, I think you will appear much less controversial by most editors. I don't agree with everything the "cabal" does and I understand your argument (not that I completely agree with it, I just understand it). I just do not think that this is the road back to adminship for you, nor do I think it is helping us build a better encyclopedia. Just let it go man, resume your normally scheduled programming of a few months ago. Peace!--MONGO 11:39, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] My RFA Withdrawal :(

Hello Karmafist, it is my apologies to bring you that I've withdrawn my RFA. Due to the lack of experience, I would go under admin coaching first before trying again later. I would thank you for your vote in this RFA whether you voted support, oppose or neutral for me. I appreciate your comments (if you do have) you made and I hope to see you here in future. --Ter e nc e Ong 15:25, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rouge!

Check this[1] out! :D --Phroziac ♥♥♥♥ 20:00, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

That is highly cool!! Too bad they spell it "Rouge", isnt that a kind of make-up? Ever played the real Rogue btw? Worth a play or two (or three). Cheers, The Minist e r of War ^(Peace) 22:59, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

That is brilliant! Noisy | Talk 23:32, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Resumption of custom welcome messages

What happened to this agreement to stop using the customized welcome messages? Did you get to talk to Jimbo, or did something change your mind? I ask because of Tony Sidaway's statement on your RFAr. TheJabberwock 02:53, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] just checking in

Hey just checking in to see how the eletction is going. Hope your having fun/doing well. When is the actual election too btw? Mike _{(T C)} 06:49, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Block for uncivil edit summaries

Karmafist, I've blocked you for extremely uncivil edit summaries. It doesn't matter what the actual edits were, except insofar as they were on new user pages, where they could be extremely confusing or off-putting. No principle you have defends that sort of rudeness. -- SCZenz 07:02, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

If you have any last minute comments to make with regard to your arbitration case, you can always email any member of the arbitration committee. -- SCZenz 07:05, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I've looked through your contribs, mate, and all due respect, the block was justified, so I'm notgoing to unblock. Least you could do is use decent edit summaries welcoming the newbies. NSL E _(T+C) at 07:07 UTC (2006-03-21)

[edit] Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Karmafist

The Arbitration Commitee has reached a final decision in this case. --Ryan Delaney ^talk 21:11, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Elections

Wait a minute; the Ethics Committee has got two places, and there are only two candidates?! Thats not much of a race is it? :-)

Hope you make it!

Cheers, The Minist e r of War ^(Peace) 09:00, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Statement of Support

Despite all the recent troubles, I ask everyone to remember that Karmafist has been in many ways a fine admin. Based on personal email (and he asked me to share my thoughts here publicly) between him and myself, I know that he has the best interests of Wikipedia at heart and did not really intend to get into this position of conflict with others. He seems to genuinely regret that things have gone this way.

I ask everyone to please be sure to welcome and greet Karmafist and to Assume Good Faith. --Jimbo Wales 21:11, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

I must say that in my dealings with him he has been unremittingly aggressive and confrontational. Judging by much of this page, my experience is shared. I don't mind assuming good intentions, I suppose, but actions speak for themselves. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:11, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Kudos to the Jimbo. I'm not really not sure why it has gotten so bad - originally he wasn't polarizing at all. I guess that happens to a lot of people here - maybe wikipolitics, maybe burnout or stress. *points to self* Just another star in the night ^{T | @ | C} 22:33, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

I've always agreed with that. Karmafist thinks big changes are required to improve the encyclopedia, and he's been very bold in trying to push those changes, and I respect that. It's easy to get frustrated when you see yourself as fighting the system, though, and it's easy for others to push back too hard—two factors that have led to much of the confrontation. As I've already told Karmafist personally, I hope that he finds a way to come back and contribute to the encyclopedia, when he's ready, without having to comromise his principles. -- SCZenz 22:39, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Well geesh, if He says so then I better step in line. Yesssuhh boss. :-() ~~hydnjo talk 23:23, 22 March 2006 (UTC)~~

Excuse me Boss, but when I see someone failing at gaming the system with the regular folks go behind our backs to the Boss with whatever, that we are not privy to, then I become suspicious. If you, in your infinite wisdom, think that this will help Karmafist be a respected member of the community then I will step aside at this time in order to observe your remedy in action. Respectfully, --hydnjo talk 23:42, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Hydnjo, I think you misunderstand the difference between assuming good faith and accepting bad actions. Jimbo's not saying the ArbCom did the wrong thing to censure Karmafist, he's just saying is that Karmafist is a good guy, and once he chills out a little we should welcome him back with open arms. I agreed because that's what I've been trying to do for weeks now; Karmafist has not always responded as well as I'd like to new chances, but he's admitted some mistakes and I think he's often been overreacting out of anger and frustration. As for Karmafist "going behind our backs," one of Jimbo's principles is that "anyone with a beef should be treated with the utmost respect and dignity"—which means that when Karmafist, a long-standing user, decides to campaign about his serious concerns about Wikipedia, it's worth it for him and Jimbo to have a couple of chats. -- SCZenz 00:28, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

No problem at this time - just wanting some conversation besides "Yes Boss". Karmafist and I have had no problems in our past interactions and in fact are neighbors (so to speak). I'm bringing up for all to see, the jimbo approach which caught me by surprise. If y'all have no problem with that, then it's fine with me. :-) --hydnjo talk 01:10, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

As long as Karmafist makes edit summaries like this, I think he'll do fine ;-) - David Gerard 11:44, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I concur, Dave. Unfortunately there are too many humourless drones on here who dont see it thusly. [2]

I believe that the communiy would have done exactly what Jimbo has asked of us. What ruffled my feathers was that neither Jimbo nor Karmafist were willing to AGF on our part and that we had to be told what to do. hydnjo talk 16:06, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I think it's hard to AGF regarding each and every member of an entire community at once. I've certainly seen a few instances of uncivil sniping at Karmafist during this process, and reminders of what kind of friendly community we are striving for here should always be welcome, be they from anyone ranging from an anon all the way up to Jimbo. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 16:20, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes , our Jimbo is right in insisting that we should always assume good faith. I may share with you that a charge of bad faith levelled against me by an editor-administraotr has made me really wild once, but I was calmed down by another editor-administratore-bureacrat. I appeal to the community to create a mechanism to examine such offensive charges. When an editor like me with a year of association with wikipedia may feel so badly, I just shudder to think of newbies who may be subject to such charges. I have not digressed from the present issue just to make a point, but to show my firm belief in the words of Jimbo Wales that everyone should assume utmost good faith, and unless very serious issues are involved, in my most humble opinion, each one of us must continue to maintain good faith here, as well as in real life. I also convey my personal thanks and regards to Jimbo Wales to give me a window to express my creativity, and I do welcome Karmafist with folded hands. --Bhadani 16:36, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I criticize Jimbo because everyone's good behavior towards Karmafist will now be asterisked. Jimbo's statement would have been fine if it came after untoward behavior. hydnjo talk 16:41, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes it would have been nicer if Jimbo's statement had come sooner. But at least it came.--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 01:20, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Good faith Assumptions

Seem to be rare things these days. The reason why, I believe, is because they are TWO WAY STREETS; They are only useful if they are mutual. So perhaps it is asking too much of the community in general to take this leap of faith anylonger. Maybe it is more realistic, if not desirable, to ask that we simply cut eachother some slack instead. Slack means being willing to not hold grudges. To accept a differing viewpoint as valid even if you may strongly disagree with it. In short, to tolerate mistakes and imperfections, both our own and others. Especially if we own up to them and try to be better Wikipedians. So as long as we are willing to be reasonable (which actually means being able to reason and not simply spout off policies and mantras) we should be able to cut ourselves some slack. Think about it, my friends,--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 01:20, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hola

thanks

I never thanked you for being the first one to welcome me to Wikipedia. Rosa 23:47, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Some Wikilove for THE FIST

To Karmafist, this well earned Good Humor Star aka the "Not letting the bastards get you down award".R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 01:39, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

AND

To Karmafist, for his bold efforts to defend Wiki from not only external attacks but internal ones as well.R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 01:39, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Birthday Wishes

Best wishes for your birthday. This is for your future on Wikipedia.

A lovely cake for Karmafist on his birthday from Andy123(talk)

I am waiting for the party to start... when you shall come back... I am feeling hungry. --Bhadani 14:06, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

So the party has started ... but
The woods are lovely, dark and deep.
But I have promises to keep,
and miles to go before I sleep,
and miles to go before I sleep.
Robert Frost --Bhadani 16:14, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

I'll probably be away this weekend, so here's wishing you Happy Birthday in advance! the wub "?!" 16:31, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

My best wishes for your grand success in the public office for which you are currently running. --Bhadani 16:34, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Happy birthday I hope it is a good one! I LovEPlankton 17:27, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Happy birthday! —

nathanrdotcom ^{(T • C • W)} 19:36, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid that I've been late here, but Happy Birthday! :) - Cheers, Mailer Diablo 01:19, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

A belated happy birthday, mate. NSL E _(T+C) at 01:48 UTC (2006-03-25)

How did all of you get 48 hours ahead of me?! Have I drastically overslept or something? Isn't Karmafist's birthday on March 26? --Tantalum T e lluride 03:46, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it is. But who cares if you can party earlier? ;-p Anyway, in Poland it has just struck midnight March 26, so... Happy Birthday! --Misza 13 ^{T C} 23:00, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Happy birthday, Karmafist. Have a great one today (Or tomorrow, whatev.) - RPharazon 02:25, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Enjoy! Cheers, Sango 123 (e) 02:34, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Happy Birthday, Hope you have a good one. --Ali K 05:50, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

I was waiting for this for last 2 days - come on, let us have some real fun here. Happy Birth Day to you! --Bhadani 07:43, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Blocked per ArbCom ruling

You are blocked for 24 hours for [3] , per your ArbCom ruling, both for the link from your signature and for the unreasonable edit summary. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 16:33, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

I would suggest you to please abide by the decision in future - this will make our life simple here. --Bhadani 17:00, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Ouch, I just saw this. I don't personally have a problem with that edit summary, but you really need to take that link out your sig. You know its violating the arbcom's decision and you're just going to keep getting blocked - you can't ignore it. the wub "?!" 17:04, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

The arbcom ruling does say "He must use a reasonable, civil, relevant edit summary" on his welcome messages. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 17:24, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Only the welcome messages, though. Karmafist could use two separate signatures: a basic one for welcomes, and a "Save Wikipedia" one for other edits. TheJabberwock 04:44, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Karmafist, surely if you just promote the manifesto from your user and Talk pages and use a sig which links there, that will be enough? I don't want to see this escalate. Wikipedia Needs You! Please don't press the self-destruct button. Just zis Guy you know? 17:29, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Barnstar, OTR & PUA Review

FYI. You may want to look and comment here: Wikipedia:Barnstar and award proposals/Proposed Changes. For your reference, the guidelines are referenced here: Barnstar Proposal Guidelines. Thanks -- evrik 18:41, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Happy Birthday!

Wikipedia wishes you a Happy Birthday!!

I saw on Esperanza it is your birthday? Congratulations!! Gryffindor

Happy birthday, Karmafist! Hope you have a good one offline! Ashibaka tock 18:25, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Have a very, merry umm.. birthday to you! --LBMixPro ^<Sp ^e ^ak|on|it!> 19:30, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Wow! Two birthday parties in one week. Very fun! --Tantalum T e lluride 06:14, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Happy birthday! Well, technically, happy a few days after your birthday, but that doesn't mean it can't be happy! --M @th wiz 20 20 02:06, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Esperanza Newsletter, Issue #1

Reach out
Reach out is a program aimed at allowing users to bring issues that they have had in Wikipedia to a listening, sympathetic and caring audience: "No one can know how we feel if we do not say. We cannot expect to get understanding if we do not ask for it. No one will dispute that sometimes life's issues are too much for one person. It is fair to say that sometimes Wikipedia's problems fall under the same heading. This is a place where you can bring the bruises that can sometimes be got on this project for attention."
Stress Alerts
The Stress alerts program aims at identifying users who are stressed, alerting the community of thier stress and works in tandem with the Stressbusters at trying to identify causes of stress and eliminating them.
Note from the editor
Welcome to this new format of the Esperanza Newsletter, which came about during the last Advisory Council meeting - we hope you like it! The major changes are that each month, right after the Council meeting, this will be sent out and will include two featured programs and a sum up of the meeting. Also, it will be signed by all of the Advisory Council members, not just Celestianpower. Have an Esperanzial end of March, everyone!

The last AC meeting (full log)
Future meetings are to be held monthly, not fortnightly as before. Bans and Access level changes (apart from autovoice) in the IRC channel are to be reported at the new log. In the IRC channel, there is going to be only one bot at a time. The charter requires members to have 150 edits and 2 weeks editing. Why this is the case will be clarified. A new Code of Conduct will be drafted by JoanneB and proposed to the Esperanza community. The NPA reform idea is to be dropped officially. Charter ammendments are to be discussed in future, not voted on. The Advisory Council is not going to be proposed to be expanded by the Advisory Council themselves, if others want to propose it, they will listen.
Signed...
Celestianpower, JoanneB, Titoxd, KnowledgeOfSelf and FireFox 17:47, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More history to live down

: I eagerly await the return of the positive, useful, helpful, insighful contributions for which Karmafist was once notable. I understand Jimbo to be asking us to once again assume good faith, something that I am willing to do in general even where history shows that skepticism may be merited. Should pugnacious behavior manifest itself again, however, we would be fools to address it otherwise than in the context of its full history. Hard work does not excuse bad behavior (c.f. MeatBall:VestedContributor). I note that Karmafist is presently away, however if he should return and begin making useful contributions while refraining from boundary violations, I hope to be among the first to welcome him back. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 05:18, 23 March 2006 (UTC)I see that one of your first actions upon returning was to issue a welcome message to a noob. The welcome message contained a link to your manifesto, something that you have been told repeatedly and specifically not to do. I cannot interpret your actions as anything other than a deliberate boundary violation. Every time you do this after being asked not to radically increases the amount of history which you would ultimately have to live down before returning to the project. While there are those who still tolerate you, and there are those who had given up hope before, this is for me the moment when you have crossed the Rubicon. While Wikipedia needs contributors, no individual contributor is indispensible, and you've been behaving as though you are. I would like to encourage you to pursue other interests, because I think that you are a detriment to the project at this point. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 19:49, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree, since even Karmafist's 2098 edits in articlespace alone surely outweigh any damage he's done. And as I said here, I think Karmafist's controversies are in many ways helpful to the project. But I agree that further provocation of the welcoming issue is just dumb. TheJabberwock 20:29, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edit summaries

Hello, Karmafist. Could you make edit summaries related to the edit, please? Using them to make unrelated running commentary about Wiki politics is bound to confuse. Jonathunder 22:47, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

I do agree about the edit summaries - but do we also indulge in wiki politics? --Bhadani 15:24, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] My RFA

Hello Karmafist, and thanks for your comment on my RFA. Could you please explain your edit summary? The text is: "Sorry, but Article Space still makes me sick. Maybe I should just stick with Office Space. Did you take my stapler?" Sorry, but I do not understand. (Possibly this is related to the above message?) Also, if you could explain the RFA comment too ("I don't exactly remember who he is, but if he is who I think he is, this is a no brainer") that would be great. Thanks, Prodego ^talk 01:59, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for the explaination, it's no problem, I was just wondering. I am honored to have recieved your "first edit as the Merrimack, New Hampshire Democrat Town Chair" Congratulations! —Prodego ^talk 03:32, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Congrats!

I've Jonathunder's page watched, and saw your edit summary. Congrats, my friend! NSL E _(T+C) at 03:05 UTC (2006-03-30)

Congrats! Give 'em hell! —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 04:22, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Congratulations from me as well. =) —Locke Cole • t • c 04:27, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Congratulations from me, too! —Nightst a llion (?) ^{Seen this already?} 12:03, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

As official cabal representative, I congratulate you, good sir. Seriously, nice work, and I hope that you make it a tough (two/four/eleventy-billion) years for those crazy Republicans. Ral315 (talk) 14:04, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Congrats from me too! Perhaps when you've recovered from campaigning you can explain to me what a "Town Chair" exactly is. Down here, Mayors are considered the Town Chair. Ah well, congrats either way :-) The Minist e r of War ^(Peace) 14:37, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

I saw the edits - so, you have been elected to an Office? Congrats. --Bhadani 15:22, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Great, your clarification of the term "politics" is really admirable. Thank you. --Bhadani 17:12, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

And, thanks for the Holi greetings, and now we are having Rama Navami. You shall find that Indians shall always be celebrating something, particularly me who every day (almost) celebrates his association with wikipedia. --Bhadani 17:23, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Greetings from the United Federaion of Planets

I noticed your IRC message but was too late to respond in a timely fashion. Feel free to pm me on irc, on my talk page, or via email. :) --Cool Cat^Talk|@ 09:10, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Socialism

SOCIALISM ROCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Kurt Weber 14:55, 1 April 2006 (UTC) Ok? Karm a fist ^{Save Wikipedia} 23:38, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Slanderous

can you please remove inaccuarte and slanderous information about me on your talk page. 1

Eh, if you didn't care enough to put one right to that section, I don't believe that you care enough about the comment, which was pretty rambling and stupid. Karm a fist ^{Save Wikipedia} 23:37, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Editcountitis

Do you have a specific number of edits in mind after which an editor is entitled to be disruptive and unresponsive to the rest of the community, or are you thinking about something more like a spectrum of privileges? I'm interested in finding out when I'll be eligible for my next award level. --phh 00:59, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't know, it seems to be all the rage in any case,along with claiming that your opinion is that of "the community" so you might as well keep at it, and leave SPUI out of it while you do so. Karm a fist ^{Save Wikipedia} 03:20, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

The rest of the community != 3-4 editors. And there's the little matter of not everyone believing what he did (and he he's doing) was disruptive. —Locke Cole • t • c 01:03, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Disagreed. Make that 5-6 editors, including a few admins. Also, it is not the rest of the community. Why does SPUI get special treatment and is allowed to get away with whatever he wants?--Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 01:26, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Neat, further evidence that you misunderstand the role of a sysop. Your opinion carries no more weight in a content dispute (in which you are involved) than any other editor. BTW, that's also the reason you shouldn't have blocked me, if you're keeping track of the discussion. —Locke Cole • t • c 01:41, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm aware of that. But we need to maintain some order until we get this thing resolved. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 01:44, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but you're not the one who should be deciding (or trying use your status as a sysop to influence) what order is, since you're involved... —Locke Cole • t • c 03:31, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

By the way, everyone else on the RFC page has 80,000 edits combined. This is in comparison to SPUI's 54,000 edits. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 01:25, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

And like I said, if he wasn't constantly hassled by people such as yourself, he'd be far over 100,000 by now. The best way you can maintain some order is by resigning as an admin. You are living proof that there are no rules left on Wikipedia that cannot be twisted to the point where they are meaningless or paradoxical. Karm a fist ^{Save Wikipedia} 03:20, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

I would do that because... ? --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 04:08, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't know, why do you? Karm a fist ^{Save Wikipedia} 15:08, 2 April 2006 (UTC)