Talk:Karkonosze/Archive 1

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents 1 Older move discussion 1.1 Vote 2 Requested move 2.1 Survey 2.2 Discussion 3 Move Request 3.1 The Survey 3.1.1 Karkonosze 3.1.2 Krkonoše 3.1.3 Krknonose 3.1.4 Giant Mountains 3.1.5 Riesengebirge 3.1.6 Krkonoše-Karkonosze 3.2 The Discussion 4 Riesengebirge translation should be Giants Mountain

Older move discussion

This page should be moved to Giant Mountains. 1) Karkonosze is its Polish name derived from the Czech Krkonoše. 2) Most of the mountain range mass lies in Czechia. 3) Giant Mountains is neutral (from the Czech-Polish border-mountains-name-dispute point of view) and traditional English name. 4) Simple Google test: Karkonosze: 9,070, Krkonose: 25,100, Giant Mountains: 17,600 results. Qertis 11:12, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Is there any Czech-Polish border dispute indeed ? Does Czechia plan to invade Poland or vice-versa ? ;-) Lysy 22:02, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Psssst. Its secret yet. Pavel Vozenilek 00:59, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

There is a long-term dispute over the English names of geographical features crossing state boundaries like rivers, mountain ranges etc. For the reasons I mentioned above, Karkonosze is clearly the least suitable name for this page. It comes third after Krkonose and Giant Mountains so there are good reasons for move. Qertis 08:15, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Hmm, in googlewar karkonosze wins against krkonose by over 30,000 hits. And "karkonosze" vs "giant mountains" wins by over 180,000 hits. How did you get your google results ? Lysy 07:35, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Well, its not very difficult. Since this is English Wikipedia, just eliminate non-English pages, and here you go. Qertis 08:15, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I don't know. How about "Krkonoše" then ? (BTW: what does this name mean in Czech language ?) Lysy 09:43, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

1)Krkonoše with hacek is not very much English either and I am not sure about Polish attitude towards the "Czech" English name of the Czech-Polish mountains. I found Giant Mountains fairly acceptable for both sides, not harming anyone. 2) I have found here that it is named after Celtic tribe. Qertis 10:30, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I don't think that many Poles would fight against Krkonoše (I'm Polish and would not mind). Maybe you're right about the hacek, although "Giant mountains" sounds very artificial (and quite commercial) to me. I've found the other old names of these mountains being "Korkntoi" or alternatively "Montes Niviferi", and "Schneegebirgen". Anyway, I would prefer the original name of "Krkonose" or "Karkonosze" as I believe "Giant mountains" can be quite confusing and don't think many people know this name, even if it sounds nice in English. I'd leave "Giant mountains" as a redirect in case someone encounters it. Lysy 10:46, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

"Giant Mountains" comes evidently from Riesengebirge and it is quite old and well settled in English; many Czech resorts use this name besides "Krkonoše". Witnessing neverending edit-wars between Polish and German wikipedians on naming issues, I am afraid "Krkonoše" would be for many Poles hard to swallow,....just like "Karkonosze" is for me ;). Qertis 11:52, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

OK, let's wait a couple of days and see. I don't think there would be any signifant Polish/Czech edit wars, as luckily there's much less nationalism in Czech and Polish relationships. Lysy 12:09, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I think this should be "Giant Mountains" - if a geographical name has a valid English translation, then we should prefer it. I'm on the road right now, but I have a printed encyclopedia of the world's mountains, can check it tomorrow. Stan 12:54, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Please do check it out. Lysy

Alas, no part of the Sudetes is mentioned there under any name - Erzgebirge on one side, Carpathians on the other, blank space in between. Stan 22:46, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

If we cannot confirm that the name "Giant mountains" is widely used outside Czech Republic, I'd rather keep the article as it is. Lysy 18:44, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Maybe it's just my ignorance, but I have to admit that I've neber-ever heard the name, neither in English nor in any of the Slavic languages (Polish and Czech included, I speak both). And, frankly speaking, it seems to be out of use nowadays (except for Brittanica, as always :( ). Of course it's neutral, just like any unused term would be, but it might also be misleading. Should we really change the used term (be it Polish or Czech name) to some unused term? Is there really a dispute here? Halibutt 22:13, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)

BTW, if we use the Google as a test for current usage, then you might want to take a look at these searches: [1], [2]. It seems that the term "Giant Mountains" is beaten 4:1... Halibutt 22:15, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)

And these searches: [3], [4] show that "Karkonosze" is beaten 4:1 as well and the winner is "Krkonose"/"Krkonoše". So I am either for this or for the "Giant Mountains" golden mean. (see my initial proposal on the top) Qertis 07:47, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Vote

Right, this discussion has gone on long enough without a structure to the vote. Please add your vote (or title suggestion) below.

Karkonosze

1. violet/riga (t) 16:45, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
2. Lysy 13:55, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Giant Mountains

1. Qertis 07:26, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

---

I thought voting was extended until April 16th and is over now ? What is the new deadline ? Lysy 16:55, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Is this really question for voting? What about looking into few online/printed maps, travel guides to find the most used English name? I do not count Google as much relevant. Pavel Vozenilek 20:39, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Right, there has been no consensus for a move so it remains here. violet/riga (t) 16:22, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, but I can't see the point in this discussion. The Google results speak a clear language here - on English language pages (anything else is irrelevant), there are

• 8,680 results for Riesengebirge
• 13,700 results for Karkonosze
• 23,900 results for Giant Mountains
• 43,300 results for Krkonoše

As nobody here will argue for the German name, that leaves us with 54% for Krkonoše, 30% for Giant Mountains and 17% for Karkonosze (percentages don't add up to 100 due to rounding). Quite obviously there is not much room nor necessity for any discussion or vote. I still think that there is a good case for Giant Mountains - it is not "artificial", but simply a quite rarely used name for a quite rarely heard-of region, whereas Krkonoše is utterly unpronouncable for the overwhelming majority of native speakers of English. Absolutely no reasonable case, however, can be made for the Polish version. --Thorsten1 16:42, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I have looked in the "Hammond Citation World Atlas" (2000) and in Paul Robert Magocsi's "Historical Atlas of Central Europe: Revised and Expanded Edition" (2002) and neither have this mountain range even listed. The greatest depth that they go into is splitting Czechia's mountains into the Bohemian Forest, the Erzgebirge, and the Sudetens (all English/German terms). In the interests of consensus I support Giant Mountains. Olessi 15:43, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

---

Britannica uses term Giant Mountains [5]. Pavel Vozenilek 07:07, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Columbia encyclopedia uses Krkonose [6], Encarta mentions it too in [7]. Pavel Vozenilek 07:17, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

The correct English name is Giant Mountains (mentioned both in the biggest and best general scientific German-English and in the best scientific Czech-English German dictionary). Riesen Gebirge and Riesengebirge are also possible. Juro 05:53, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Coming in on this a bit late - the Times Atlas of the World uses Krkonoše, but I'd support keeping at Karkonosze as that doesn't require any hard-to-type špecial characterš. Definitely not 'giant mountains' as that's meaningless, it could refer to any large mountains. - MPF 14:48, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

Move Request

It was requested that this article be renamed but the procedure outlined at WP:RM#Steps for requesting a controversial page move did not appear to be followed, and consensus could not be determined. Please request a move again with proper procedure if there is still a desire for the page to be moved. Thank you for your time! -- tariqabjotu 20:49, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Meep, didn't see the move requests already. In any case, the move proposed in the previous poll wasn't what I had in mind, so here is the new vote:

Karkonosze → Giant Mountains or Krkonoše (indicate which of the three you prefer and why) The mountain range lies mostly in Czechia, so using a Polish name is not fully appropriate I believe.

The Survey

Add your support to appropriate versions, followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with four tildes (~~~~). Please take note of the conditional votes if this vote is being closed.

Karkonosze

1. Support. --Lysy^talk 18:44, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
2. Conditional: In order of preference: Giant Mountains (used by Britannica), Krkonoše (used by Columbia), Karkonosze. Olessi 20:19, 8 November 2006 (UTC) (I assume that if the first fails, he effectively casts his vote for the second, etc. +Hexagon1 ^(t) 01:02, 10 November 2006 (UTC))
3. because of Karkonosze National Park. FairHair 18:47, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
4. Conditional: If the the poll does not approve Krkonoše, I would prefer Karkonosze to the Giant Mountains per the reasons stated below and the google statistics. Tankred 01:06, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
5. Support Karkonosze as 1st choice. Then Krkonoše for second choice, Riesengebirge for third, and totally reject "giant mountains" as rather meaningless - MPF 23:08, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Krkonoše

1. Krkonoše, traditional Czech name used in most atlases and guides. Giant Mountains sounds artificial, but still better then the Polish term. +Hexagon1 ^(t) 07:04, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
2. Support. --Lysy^talk 21:42, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

   Krkonoše It looks like this is the name used in most English sources (according to the Google fight anyway), and since this is English Wikipedia, I say go with it. Jay32183 20:06, 8 November 2006 (UTC) I'm going to change to abstaining for lack of information on my part, but will support to whatever turns out to be the most common name used in English. Jay32183 04:26, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

3. Conditional: In order of preference: Giant Mountains (used by Britannica), Krkonoše (used by Columbia), Karkonosze. Olessi 20:19, 8 November 2006 (UTC) (I assume that if the first fails, he effectively casts his vote for the second, etc. +Hexagon1 ^(t) 01:02, 10 November 2006 (UTC))
4. Krkonoše because this official name is more frequently used than the second official name Karkonosze. I oppose the generic and incorrect translation "Giant Mountains", which is far from being widely accepted in English. Tankred 23:25, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Krknonose

Giant Mountains

1. Conditional: In order of preference: Giant Mountains (used by Britannica), Krkonoše (used by Columbia), Karkonosze. Olessi 20:19, 8 November 2006 (UTC) (I assume that if the first fails, he effectively casts his vote for the second, etc. +Hexagon1 ^(t) 01:02, 10 November 2006 (UTC))
2. Giant Mountains Juro 04:13, 9 November 2006 (UTC) (this is the correct English name used by the best dictionaries and texts) Juro 04:13, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
3. Giant Mountains per above. --VinceB 17:13, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
4. Giant Mountains since the google search demonstrates there is no super majority the clearly English term should be used. Jay32183 04:00, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

   That's illogical, why not call a cedilla a "hooky thing bellow" then. Just because it sounds English-y doesn't mean it's correct. +Hexagon1 ^(t) 06:39, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

   According to all three searches the names are essentially on equal footing. Therefore according to "Use English" the English name should be used. Giant Mountains is the only term of English origin, and your analogy isn't on the same ground. Comparing "cedilla" to "hooky thing bellow" should give you a supermajority. Jay32183 06:47, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

   Giant Mountains have the least number of references (books and websites) according to the google count. Tankred 07:51, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

   Exactly. Googlebooks shows "Giant Mountains" has a superminority (9 books vs 23 for Krkonoše and 56 for Karkonosze). --Lysy^talk 08:16, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

5. If an English name exists, arguing over whether to use the Polish or Czech name is unneccessary. Jonathunder 16:24, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

   If it existed, but so far it's only a mistranslated German name, used in touristic pamphlets, while almost all English language literature uses either Krkonoše or Karkonosze. Next we will be renaming Śnieżka into "Snowy Mountain". --Lysy^talk 17:04, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

6. Giant Mountains, strong support. Use Giant Mountains to get over this tit-for-tat argumentation from either Polish or Czech side. Include Krkonoše, Karkonosze and Riesengebirge for reference in the opening section of the article. MikeZ 08:21, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Riesengebirge

Krkonoše-Karkonosze

1. Support. It works fine for Śnieżka, why not here then ? --Lysy^talk 08:18, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

The Discussion

Oppose. New move request is premature. Give it a break. --Lysy^talk 07:56, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

• That's not really grounds for opposition, and the previous poll didn't give an option for a move to "Krkonoše", just "Giant Mountains". +Hexagon1 ^(t) 11:22, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

  And this one does not have an option for "Karkonosze". Really weird. --Lysy^talk 21:42, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

  Well that's the current title, no need to move it there. +Hexagon1 ^(t) 05:35, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

---

Add any additional comments

A googlefight on English-speaking pages resulted in the following as of 6:42, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC):

• 13,700 results for Karkonosze
• 23,900 results for Giant Mountains
• 43,300 results for Krkonoše

+Hexagon1 ^(t) 07:04, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

But, a year later, as of 21:55, 8 November 2006 (UTC) it says:

• 137,000 English hits for "Giant Mountains"
• 72,400 English hits for "Karkonosze"
• 58,800 English hits for "Krkonoše"

--Lysy^talk 21:55, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

To respond to the worry that "Giant Mountains" is an ambiguous term, the first five pages (at least) of hits in Google are all for this mountain range. Olessi 22:25, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I got 131,000 English pages for "Krkonoše", 144,000 English pages for "Giant mountains" and 73,800 English pages for "Karkonosze". Even though the "first five" results for Giant Mountains refer to the mountain range, I have no doubts a significant number, however, do not. +Hexagon1 ^(t) 05:34, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

The difference in the search results is "Krkonoše " compared to "Krkonoše" (note the space). I pointed out that the first five pages of search hits for "Giant Mountains" are unambiguously about this mountain range, not that the first five results were about it. Olessi 06:04, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Fewer then half are about the mountain range and use the term exclusively (as opposed to "133 Premieres – The Krkonoše (Giant Mountains)" or "Karkonosze (Giant) Mountains - Holiday Poland" for example), and most of those use "Giant Mountains" as a marketing thing, rather then an accurate name for the range. +Hexagon1 ^(t) 00:53, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

It might be important to note that one of those first five is this Wikipedia article. Jay32183 06:19, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

---

I just came across this discussion; Riesengebirge has over one million hits on google: [8] Riesengebirge=translation to English Giants Mountain. Labbas 9 November 2006

Oh well, if you want to count it that way then Karkonosze has 2 million hits (without inflection variants). ;-) --Lysy^talk 18:12, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

With a qualifier of only searching in the English language, "Riesengebirge" is dropped to 39,100. Olessi 18:11, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

---

And here are interesting results from googlebooks ;-)

• "Giant Mountains" - 4 books in English
• "Riesengebirge" - 6 books, half in German
• "Karkonosze" - 29 books mostly in English
• "Krkonoše" - 36 books, but mostly in Czech

--Lysy^talk 18:29, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

The search results seem to vary sometimes; I wonder what algorithms Google uses... Searching today gives me:

• "Giant Mountains" - 243, many unconnected with this mountain range
• "Riesengebirge" - 238, most in German
• "Karkonosze" - 173, mostly in English
• "Krkonoše" - 244, mostly in Czech ("Krkonose" gives the same results)

--Olessi 21:17, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

---

To avoid false results for Giant Mountains, I counted only the sources with any variant of the highest mountain in Krkonose: google.books.com

• Giant Mountains 9 books
• Krkonoše 23 books
• Karkonosze 56 books

google.com

• Giant Mountains 864 English results
• Krkonoše 11,600 English results
• Karkonosze 951 results

Tankred 23:38, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Total Google results often differ from the results given on the first search page. Compare the following to your previous search:

• Google Books
• Giant Mountains 9 books
• Krkonoše 13 books
• Karkonosze 24 books
• Google.com
• Giant Mountains 306 English results
• Krkonoše 487 English results
• Karkonosze 343 results

Olessi 22:21, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Of course, Google searches also depend on the criteria you use to search with. Inspired by Tankred's parameters, I ran these searches with "NAME" Poland OR Czech. The results also seem to vary upon reloading the page, jumping from a high number of hits, to a low number, to zero results, back to the high number again. Perplexing....

• Google Books
• Giant Mountains 151 (also gave 95)
• Krkonose 83 (55)
• Krkonoše 85
• Karkonosze 95
• Google.com
• Giant Mountains 488
• Krkonose 727
• Krkonoše 644
• Karkonosze 739

Many of the Krkonoše/Krkonose results seem to be duplicate hits. Olessi 22:47, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Here (corrected "Krkonoše"):

• Giant Mountains 864 English results (16,200 all languages)
• Krkonoše 871 English results (67,400 all languages)
• Karkonosze 951 English results (102,000 all languages)

"Karkonosze" wins in all categories. --Lysy^talk 00:41, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Because this mountain range is not frequently referred to in English, there is no "common" English name for the region (compared to the Alps or Carpathians). Should the article be at Krkonoše because most of the mountains are in the Czech Republic? Should it be at Karkonosze because it can give more Google hits? In situations like this where there is no overwhelming preference for one name over others, Google comparisons seem to me to be running in circles (exemplified by my tests above). I personally prefer Giant Mountains because (in no particular order) it:

• is English phrasing (regardless of it having originally been mistranslated from Riesengebirge)
• has been used in English-language publications[9] and not just tourism sites
• is used by Encyclopedia Britannica
• avoids having to choose between Krkonoše/Karkonosze (thereby avoiding potential rv wars). Olessi 23:10, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Riesengebirge translation should be Giants Mountain

Note about meaning of name: The English translation to Giant Mountains is somewhat incorrect, because the ancient name Riesengebirge should have in earlier times rather have been translated as Giants Mountain or Mountain of the Giants, because the Riesen in this case means plural: giants- who live on top of- or in the mountains. This is old Germanic folklore. It does not mean that the mountains are huge- Riesen- gigantic. There are many old German folklore stories about the Riesen- giants as well as songs Labbas 9 November 2006

Indeed. Thanks for explaining that - maybe this information should be included in the article itself ? --Lysy^talk 20:30, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

-that would be ok with me- Labbas 9 November 2006

Done. --Lysy^talk 00:18, 10 November 2006 (UTC)