Talk:Karen Dotrice

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	Karen Dotrice is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do.
	This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on November 9, 2006.
Article milestones Date Process Result January 11, 2006 Peer review Reviewed January 8, 2006 Featured article candidate Not promoted January 19, 2006 Featured article candidate Promoted Current Status: Featured article

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More information about this article... The following comments have been left for this page: I'm not an editor to this article, but I saw it on the Main Page while it was featured, though it was unrated within the WP Biography system. Perhaps editors who frequently edit the article will have more to say. Here's a link to the FAC poll. --Fbv65edel / ☑t / ☛c || 01:30, 9 November 2006 (UTC) (edit)

[edit] English or British?

There is some discussion about which is correct. While I can't seem at present to track down her current home, I recall reading somewhere that, while she was born on Channel Islands in the UK, she has made her home in England since she was very young. For the moment, I'm keeping "English" because of a quote from Dotrice: "I think [Walt Disney] really liked English kids. He was tickled pink by the accent and the etiquette. And when I was being very English and polite, he would look proudly at this little charge who had such good manners." [1] Any help so that we can get this one correct would be appreciated. RadioKirk talk to me 19:51, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm not wholly sure that you can base the statement "calls herself 'English' rather than 'British'" on the above quote. To me, what the quote implies is that Walt Disney liked English kids. Without wanting to make broad generalisations (but I'll go ahead anyway), most people from outside the UK couldn't tell you the relationship between England and Guernsey. British English is the foremost language in both; there is no discernible difference in accent in the way there might be between an English person and a Scottish person, for example (again, making generalisations). So, to all intents and purposes, someone from Guernsey would quite easily fit Disney's mould for 'English', despite the fact that they would not, in fact, be English. So just because Dotrice relates how she may have appealed to Disney due to her 'English-ness', that doesn't mean that she herself would regard herself as English.

Of course, having lived in England most of her life, she may well think of herself as English. I just don't feel that that assumption can be made based on the quote about Disney.--Benwilson528 09:29, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

This is a debate about a non-issue. Much of the momentum for it comes from an editor who doesn't seem to know much about the subject, but doesn't like to be edited by those who do. The salient points are as follows. It's normal to attribute nationality in the introduction to biographical articles. KD was born in the Channel Islands. The Channel Islands are British, but not part of the United Kingdom. Those born there are British Citizens, just like those born in England or anywhere else in the United Kingdom. So it's not vandalism (as recently claimed) to describe KD in the intro as a British actress. Nor is there any evidence that sense of nationality within the UK is a documented issue for KD, or anyone else outside of this discussion. It's a non-issue in the outside world. Forget it and move on. Countersubject 14:13, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

It's not a matter of like or dislike; it's a matter of trying to do that which I believed was correct (and, that was not the vandalism to which I was referring). Nevertheless, I'll defer to those who claim "to know much about the subject". :) RadioKirk (u|t|c) 14:17, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

That's just not good enough. If you don't know much about a subject - and your edits show that in this case you don't - and you're not prepared to do even the minimum of legwork required to become better informed, then you shouldn't indulge in this kind of edit war. As an Admin you should know better, and should set a better example.:-) Countersubject 14:23, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

The opening query in this very section demonstrates only part of the legwork I did on the subject, which I found quite lacking. Please read WP:AGF with all possible dispatch; you also need desperately to learn the difference between an edit war and a good-faith reversion. Edit: Please also note that each of my edits was also intended to remove vandalism; if your issue is the clarity of using "and" rather than "/" in my edit summaries, I'l try to remember that when I'm working quickly to fight legitimate vandals... RadioKirk (u|t|c) 14:26, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

i would say she is british--Chickenfeed9 18:47, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies)#Opening paragraph #3 states "Nationality (In the normal case this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen or national, or was a citizen when the person became notable. Ethnicity should generally not be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability.)" This argues powerfully—if not inarguably—that English is correct. RadioKirk (u|t|c) 19:13, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

The country of which she is a citizen is the United Kingdom. This gives her British nationality. See standard references, e.g. those already given on this page. Countersubject 13:19, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

The cited references say she lived in England since she was a very young girl. Unless you can provide a source I haven't seen yet that states a UK citizen at birth remains a UK citizen for life, your edit is original research. "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth." RadioKirk (u|t|c) 15:59, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

You still seem to have the wrong end of the stick. That dissapoints but doesn't surprise me: the complexities of the UK, its constituent parts, its relationship with the various Crown Dependencies and the nature of British citizenship confuse many on this side of the pond, so we should expect others to be confused, too (even professional journalists :-) ). So let me summarise as best I can: the UK consists of the countries of England, Scotland and Wales, and the six counties of Northern Ireland. Citizens of the UK have British citizenship. British citizenship also extends to the Channel Islands (including Guernsey). To say that KD is British is therefore a matter of fact. It would also be true to say that she's a Guernsey woman of English extraction, who has lived most of her life in England. The problem with that is that it's a bit long and complicated, but that's not unusual for a discussion of origin and ethnicity over here. We've moved around this complicated place for a long time, with results that make sense to us but often confuse others. For example, I'm English, of Welsh and Scottish extraction, with Channel Island connections. In the unlikely event of me doing anything to warrant a biographical article, it would be appropriate to summarise me as British in the intro, and discuss the gory detail in the body of the article. The same goes for KD. Countersubject 01:05, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I appreciate the explanation, because I want to be correct; at the same time, though, while you consider me to be on the wrong end of the factual stick, you remain on the wrong end of the verifiable stick—in other words, every word you've written above may be 100% factual, but it still doesn't come with a published, reliable source to back it up, leaving it (for the moment) withing the realm of original research. "The obligation to provide a reliable source lies with the editors wishing to include the material"—meaning, it's up to you do demonstrate in a manner that any other editor on the planet can verify with one click why Ms. Dotrice is British, not English, in contravention with this demonstration of encyclopedic policy. You do that, and I will defer with great pleasure, because it will then satisfy what an encyclopedia is and must be all about. RadioKirk (u|t|c) 02:52, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

You're still missing the point, RadioKirk. KD is British, as a matter of verifiable fact. She was born on Guernsey, of a Gueurnsey family. Guernsey and England are not the same, but they are both British. I'm surprised that you don't grasp this distinction, because you've previously accepted sources that explain and verify the relationship between the constituent parts of Britain. As you're a journalist and an admin, I would also expect to look at the various Wikipedia articles on and around the subject, and follow up on their references; for example, you might find British Isles (terminology) and British nationality law helpful. In addition, leaflet BN1 - British citizenship], published by the Home Office Immigration and Nationality Directorate, might also be of some use. Countersubject 11:14, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

And, with that, you finally introduce the WP:RS as WP:V requires you to do in order to change data as it existed before. Meantime, your attempt to force me to do your research for you in contravention of policy has ventured so far into argumentum ad hominem that I am no longer inclined to discuss this or any other subject with you. Good bye. RadioKirk (u|t|c) 19:36, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

 :-) Countersubject 11:14, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Obviously she's British by nationality or ethnicity, but it should be made clear that she has lived the majority of her adult life in the United States, not anywhere more British than that. She has a business in Los Angeles and that is where her home has been for many, many years.

[edit] Now a Featured Article :D

Updated: My sincere thanks to Marknew (talk) for the recognition as a Good Article, and to Raul654 (talk) for subsequent Featured Article honors. This article didn't even exist before 12 December 2005, and these honors could not have been achieved without the hard work of and/or persistent motivation from JoaoRicardo (talk), AndyZ (talk), Mikkerpikker (talk), Rossrs (talk), Monicasdude (talk), Wackymacs (talk) and Johnleemk (talk). Thanks as well to Banes (talk), Azathar (talk), Gflores (talk), Staxringold (talk) and Extraordinary Machine (talk) for their fac votes. I (and others, no doubt) will continue to improve on this article where possible. RadioKirk talk to me 18:33, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

I've removed the Good Article tag now that Featured Article status has been achieved; all Featured Articles are good articles, so we don't need a separate Good Article box. Well done for achieving FA status in such a (comparatively) short period of time! --Marknew 10:14, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, and thanks again to everyone who helped! RadioKirk talk to me 13:53, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] linking years

I noticed a lot of the years are linked. This guideline suggests not to link individual years. However, some people disagree with it, so I'm asking first if the article should keep the links. Honestly, I don't think a lot of the links are that helpful and just add clutter. Comments? Gflores ^Talk 17:37, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

In most cases, I've tried to link to pages that people might be interested in following, such as [[1978 in television|1978]], as opposed to simply linking the year. Otherwise, I've followed what I've seen in other articles: The first instance is linked, the rest are not. Personally, neither choice would bother me. (Edit: Unless relevant to the article, the links are gone.) RadioKirk talk to me 17:57, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Filmography wrong way round

the filmography is upside down on this article, should be in chronological order (see all the style guides). please reverse it, or this article will be removed from FA list. Zzzzz 11:09, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Done - this article shall remain Featured for many years to come! --Marknew 11:58, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

cool. Zzzzz 12:02, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Piping links for nationality

Hi, I notice that you have been piping nationality links to the "X people" articles, eg. [[Scottish people|Scottish]]. Having worked on thousands of biog articles, primarily European and North American (but also a fair few Antipodean), I can say without hesitation that the overwhelming consensus is to pipe thus:

• [[Scotland|Scottish]]
• [[France|French]]
• [[United States|American]]
• [[Mexico|Mexican]]
• [[Sweden|Swedish]]

If this is doubted in any way, perhaps we could consult the good folks at Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography? (Apart from anything else, those "X people" articles are utterly, utterly appalling rubbish in my experience: full of POV, edit warring, AFD's and many other such delights: probably because they tend to focus on pseudo-ethnicity theories, rather than civil society, which is the strength of the country articles.) --Mais oui! 10:09, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

I thought this was discussed months ago; anyway, if there are problems with the "x people" articles, we should fix those articles, rather than pipe a link to an article which does not illuminate the intent of the text. :) RadioKirk (u|t|c) 04:04, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Edit: Is there a link to this "overwhelming consensus" and, perhaps, why the issue wasn't mentioned during this article's FAC? RadioKirk (u|t|c)

That happened after i tried following your advice with other articles - it's very frustrating PMA 04:51, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Hm... interesting... RadioKirk (u|t|c) 04:58, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Channel Islands, UK?

The Channel Islands aren't part of the UK. To quote the article on the Channel Islands:

The Channel Islands fall into two separate self-governing Bailiwicks.
Both the Bailiwick of Guernsey and the Bailiwick of Jersey are British
crown dependencies, but neither is part of the United Kingdom.

--Patteroast 01:03, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Wiki cannot cite itself; if you have a published, reliable source, feel free to note it in your edit summary if you remove the data. :) RadioKirk (u|t|c) 01:04, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I have just edited this, as per the Encyclopaedia Britannica article: "The islands are dependencies of the British crown (and not strictly part of the United Kingdom)". Iain 01:46, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I'll let it stand, but is there a link that I don't have to pay for, in accordance with WP:CITE and WP:V? :) RadioKirk (u|t|c) 01:50, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Will HM Government do? :-) http://www.pm.gov.uk/output/Page823.asp --Marknew 13:06, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Brittania is being cited here as a reputable secondary source. Many such have to be be paid for (e.g. textbooks and journals). However, if the subject isn't one you know much about and you would like to access a source for free, try the CIA world factbook article on Guernsey, which includes the following: The islands were the only British soil occupied by German troops in World War II. Guernsey is a British crown dependency, but is not part of the UK.. Countersubject 13:48, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Those both are perfect. :) RadioKirk (u|t|c) 18:28, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Exactly - "British" covers more than just the UK. I think thhat British Isles covers the Channel Islands. -- Beardo 16:31, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lead in

I dunno if this has been brought up before, but the lead in section seems extremely short, by featured article standards (see Katie Holmes, James T. Aubrey, Jr., etc. at Wikipedia:Featured articles). Is there anything else at all that can be added, even if it's just repeated info? Right now, it looks a little weak. Axem Titanium 02:56, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

The current lead actually resulted from the WP:FA process. :) RadioKirk (u|t|c) 03:14, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, per the Main Page, I added a line. :) RadioKirk (u|t|c) 03:45, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] IPA

Dotrice (dō-'trēs) This needs to be changed to IPA. --Kjoonlee 05:27, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Feel free; I never got around to looking it up. :) RadioKirk (u|t|c) 05:37, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Problem is, I can't be sure what dō-'trēs should sound like, because I only know IPA. ;) --Kjoonlee 06:12, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I think the macron means to pronounce the vowel like the letter itself... /dəʊˈtriːs/ ([dəʊˈtʰɹiːs] ?) or something, methinks -- Amorette 06:33, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

A good guess, but I think it would be better if there were an audio/video recording on the web somewhere that can be used to verify the transcription. --Kjoonlee 09:08, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I do not know how "Dotrice" is pronounced, but I have only ever heard /dəˈtriːs/. Pronunciation of the first syllable with a long o looks like an Americanised pronunciation to me — surely, as the actress is British (in as much as she was born in the British Isles), a UK English pronunciation should be given, unless, of course, the first syllable is indeed pronounced with a long o. If this is the case, the UK English vowel would indeed be /əʊ/ and /dəʊˈtriːs/ would be appropriate (/dəʊˈtʰɹiːs/ is more accurate, but unnecessarily precise). Making this change. — Paul G 10:32, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, /dəʊ/ is quite British already, as Americans tend to pronounce that as /doʊ/ instead... but anyway, I think /dəʊ/ is a more carefully articulated version than /də/ and it doesn't have to sound long (cf. a word such as "domain") -- Amorette 17:09, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

But how can we be sure /dəʊˈtriːs/ is valid? Speculation would count as OR/unverifiable info and would have to be removed per WP:NOR and WP:V. --Kjoonlee 11:37, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

It's doh-TREESE; she says so herself in the audio commentary on the cited DVD. RadioKirk (u|t|c) 13:57, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Here (link removed) is an audio file I lifted from the audio commentary. As soon as someone acknowledges the pronunciation, please reply so I can remove this link. :) RadioKirk (u|t|c) 18:43, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like /dəˈtriːs/ to me. --Kjoonlee 02:16, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

It's interesting, though; it's somewhere between a schwa and a long o... :) RadioKirk (u|t|c) 02:58, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Since it's phonetically short and unstressed, I think a schwa would be safe. :> --Kjoonlee 03:19, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

If those are the only two options, I tend to agree. :) RadioKirk (u|t|c) 03:23, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Betty

I have just realised there is a glaring mistake in the article....it was her sister Michelle who played Betty in "Some Mother's Do Ave Em" and not Karen. Can you fix this, please?Luckyles 11:31, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Edit: Apparently, it's been removed... RadioKirk (u|t|c) 13:57, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism in television section

There appears to be some "jive" in one of the later sentences. I don't know what the original should be; perhaps an Admin can do a rollback?LessHeard vanU 13:41, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Someone has seriously vandalised this article.

"In 1984, Dotrice retired from show business to focus on motherhood; she has fifty three children from twenty two marriages. She was named a awesome mom with all her fifty three kids and twenty two marriages in 2004."

I mean, come people, be serious. NOT funny.

Clear your cache; this has long since been removed... RadioKirk (u|t|c) 19:40, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

ooh, sorray....:P

[edit] Featured status

I don't think that this article deserves to be a featured article, although it's pretty good. It should be a good article. It's too short, and the featured article discussion was engaged by only a few people.

Somebody made an excuse by saying that what the article lacks should not be an issue as much as what the article has, but the article doesn't have anything. (Wikimachine 23:47, 9 November 2006 (UTC))

I'd argue only that there is a sufficient number of people who disagree. :) RadioKirk (u|t|c) 05:27, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Link to United Kingdom or Briton/British

It's innacurate to link from 'British' in the intro to the United Kingdom. To summarise the various tedious discussions above: KD is from Guernsey, one of the Channel Islands; the Channel Islands are not part of the United Kingdom (they are Crown Dependencies), but are considered British, and their citizens have British Citizenship. It's therefore better to link to Briton, British or British Islands. I sincerely hope this stands by way of explanation. If anyone wants references, see those cited above and in the various Wikipedia articles, e.g. Channel Islands, Guernsey, United Kingdom, British Islands, British Nationality Law, Crown Dependencies... (yawn). And please, cut down on the Wikipedian acronyms (you know who you are!). Countersubject 09:29, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I have changed back to English. Afterall she grew up in England, her mother is English. To put British surely because she was born in Guernsey seems over the top. Indeed, if being born in Guernsey means a lot to her then we have to put "is a Guernsey actress". --Berks105 13:40, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Since my research has come up wanting, I'm out of this one—and staying that way... RadioKirk (u|t|c) 13:46, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

She is British, as a matter of fact. British comprehends all the parts of the British Islands, and that's the name of the citizenship of their various peoples. It's therefore an appropriate label in the intro for someone whose identity derives from both Guernsey and England. The detail can then be given in the body of the article (as it is). Countersubject 14:14, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I've just seen Berks105's edit summary, which says that KD's parents are English. That's only half true. The clue is in the anglo-french surname: Roy Dotrice is a Guernseyman. Also, I agree that we shouldn't link to the UK, of which England is a part but Guernsey isn't. Hence my preference for British. Countersubject 14:24, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Whatever she is, the link should not be to to the British article, as that is an article describing the ambiguity of the term. Maybe Briton is a better article, or British nationality law. -- Jeff3000 04:35, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

It is a shame that Countersubject is unwillingly to even consider comprising. You are just assuming you are write. The fact is she has lived in England since a young age, and I think that English or "Guernsey born English" are preferable to the very unspecific British. I feel that if Karen Dotrice was surnamed MacDonald and had a Scottish accent you would have no problem in putting Scottish, but as she's English you think its acceptable to put British. It the usual prejudice of many people on Wikipeida. You need to look above the legality of nationality, but as you seem unwillingly to comprise, you evidentaly cant do that. --Berks105 10:03, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

There's no prejudice here. The extent to which KD is an English or Guernsey woman is arguable. That she's British is verifiable, which is what we aim for in Wikipedia. It's therefore appropriate to introduce her as British, then cover the fact that she was born in Guernsey of a Guernsey father and English mother, but has lived most of her life in England, in the body of the article. And by the way, the 'Macdonald' analogy doesn't work in quite the way you intend. Dotrice isn't an English name - it's anglo-french, reflecting the heritage of the Channel Islands. Countersubject 11:15, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I wasn't saying Dotrice is an English name, but the fact is if she spoke with a Scottish accent and had grown up in Scotland people would insist she was Scottish. But as she grew up in England and has an English accent, people insist she's British. Thats prejudice. But, I will leave this, if I ever find a source where she says she English I will come back and change it. --Berks105 11:28, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

It's not prejudice, but due respect for the complication of the matter, and for her non-English birth and heritage. If her surname were 'Smith', and she'd been born in England of an English father and Scottish mother, then grown up in Scotland ... Countersubject 12:27, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Today's edit re Charles Laughton

I find this peripheral and pretty much irrelevant to Ms. Dotrice; comments? RadioKirk (u|t|c) 23:50, 14 March 2007 (UTC)