Talk:Karaite Judaism

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Archives: [1] [2]

Contents 1 Karaites and the Holocaust 2 a thought 3 Karaite Judaism and Mysticism 4 More Information on Karaite Halakha and Practices 5 Don't confuse "Internet Karaites" with other Karaites 6 When did Karaism start? 7 External links 8 The main reason? 9 Nazarene Karaites 10 Removing French Karaite Chatgroup link 11 Karaylar and Karaites 12 History section 13 ORIGINS 14 Yoseif Yaron 15 Some Confusing Wording 16 Karaites and Reform? 17 Incorrect Numbers 18 1911 EB 19 Status 20 Semantics in Header 21 Problems and merits of the article, so far 22 Please Add Alternate Spelling 23 New article 24 POV 25 Reverting vandalisms 26 Karaköy

[edit] Karaites and the Holocaust

There is a discussion of this issue and some references here: http://www.karaite-korner.org/holocaust.htm Kmorrow (talk) 15:47, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] a thought

In the article it is stated: "When interpreting scripture Karaites strive to adhere to the p'shat (plain meaning) of the text. This is in contrast to Rabbinical Judiasm, which employs the methods of p'shat, remez, drash, and sod." I think it would be informative and helpful if someone would add English meanings for remez, drash, and sod. I myself have no idea what they mean. Cheers.

As a result of this note, I see definitions have been added in. I'm not sure this is actually the best approach. In light of that, I've started a little article idea at User:TShilo12/Peirush, to cover this stuff (in its current state it's more sandbox or sand-in-the-eye material than even stubworthy). I don't think it's appropriate to cover it in Karaite Judaism, and the Judaism article itself is getting rather large. That said, I'm not really sure what to call the article even if it were just a stub. I'm thinking Jewish exegesis or Exegesis in Judaism perhaps. Anyone willing to help out? Tomer ^TALK 21:28, May 6, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Karaite Judaism and Mysticism

I think improvement may be made if there were a section added on the Karaite views of mysticism and the methods of philosophical speculation which have been employed in the past and present. For instance, the Rabbinites have developed the Kabbalah based on their encounters with emanationist philosophy. Has there been any parallel in the Karaite fold or, perhaps, have certain Karaites adopted Kabbalistic practice?

Yogensha 01:32, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

If you're qualified to add such a section, please do so! Kol hakavod, -t Tomer ^TALK 07:55, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)

I don't have the experience or knowledge of Karaite Judaism to do so. I meant that knowledgeable Karaim would do well to add such a section, or at least provide a simple explanation on the Karaite position. Yogensha 11:49, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Karaite Judaism rejects the authority of any post-Biblical litterature, such as Talmud, the New testament or Sefer Zohar as human creations. Discussion and study of the scriptures are a natural part of Judaism, but no rabbinical text may be elevated on the same level or above the Torah and Tanach text. Kabbalah is based on mystical speculation on the Torah text and according to the Karaite Jewish view it is non-Biblical and thus automatically rejected.

[edit] More Information on Karaite Halakha and Practices

I think this article would be drastically improved if anyone could add relevant information concerning some of the more important Karaite practices and observances which aren't explicitly mentioned in the material we have today, by the World Karaite Movement or this article. First and foremost, I have been unable to find any information on a traditional Karaite Siddur, and the sections at which they are to make their prostrations. I have also been unable to find any traditional blessings, though I've heard them mentioned by Karaites in some of their books on the topic. For instance, in "An Introduction to Karaite Judaism," by the al-Qirqisani foundation, many blessings over such things as tzitzit are mentioned, but no source is provided for them. They seem to be adapted from the Rabbinic customs, actually. Kiddush and Havdala is also mentioned by them, but nothing on how they are performed or where more information can be found on it. Explanations or illustrations of a coherent system of Halakha is not to be found, though I have seen it mentioned in various places. Clarification on these matters by Karaites or those knowledgeable about the practice would be very helpful. [They reference their siddur which contains these prayers. If I had an email address for you I would be happy to send you a Karaite Kiddush and Havdalah service]--Yogensha

Whoever wrote that they would send me the Karaite Kiddush and Havdalah services, my email address is ivrit@NOMAILmissvalley.comNOMAIL

Yogensha 17:32, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

• I have a copy of the American Siddur, which is basically an abbrieviated version of the siddur used in Israel. Once I get home, I'll see about writing some information about it. Their Shabbat Siddur is much different than traditional (Rabbinic) Shabbat siddurim, I don't think any of it has been borrowed from the Rabbinic siddur. However, I'll read through it again and see if I notice any similarities.--Josiah 19:57, Jan 7, 2005 (UTC)

• • Also, while many of the materials from the Al-Qirqisani foundation are helpful, I'd take them with a grain of salt. "Hakham Qanai" is not recongized by any of the Karaite Hakhamim in Israel, in fact, when I had inquired R. Dabah of Jerusalem he told me that Avraham Qanai had not been in contact with them since the 80's, and had not heard that Avraham Qanai was a Hakham or Rabbi.--Josiah 20:00, Jan 7, 2005 (UTC)

• {Note from Eliezer ben Efraim haKohen "EbEhK": The Karaite Jews of America "KJA" has a shabbat siddur that sets forth the various prostrations. This is described in much more detail in co-author Hakham Yosef Pesah's book "An Introduction to Karaite Judaism: History, Theology, Custom & Practice."

• ["EbEhK" note: This is incorrect. In the Karaite Prayerbook Edited by Nehemia Gordon in consultation with R' Moshe Dabah based on the 1870 Firkovich Edition - The blessing translated in english states:Blessed be you YHWH our God, King of the universe, who has sanctified with his commandments to don four corners with tzitzit, Amen. " This mitzvot cannot be found in TaNaKh word for word but the Chumash's actual words seem close enough: See Bemidbar (Numbers) 15.38)

[Note by EbEhK "An Introduction to Karaite Judaism: History, Practice, Theology and Custom" is co-authored by Hakham Yosef Pessah see page 239. I therefore find the discussion regarding Mr. Qanai as being rendered moot, not to mention Lashon Harah.]

There is a huge difference between mentioning that a person is being dishonest and spreading Lashon Hara. If a Messianic was pretending that he had recieved schmica from Yeshiva University, and had not, would it be Lashon Hara to mention that he hadn't? I think not.--Josiah 04:27, Feb 21, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Don't confuse "Internet Karaites" with other Karaites

Yogensha,

I think you may be confusing "Internet Karaites" with Karaites who live in Karaite communities, attend synagogue services, etc. in your additions to this article. Since the Golden Age of Karaism, and especially since the Arab persecutions after 1948 and the Lavon Affair, most Karaites have been somewhat supsicous of outsiders, with good reason. Until this past year, the ruling body of Karaites in Israel, called the UKJ - "Universal Karaite Judaism" would not even consider conversions. This is because for a long time Egyptian Karaites would not perform conversions. In fact, there are still a very small amount of Karaites who suspect Nehemiah Gordon of being a Rabbinic spy. (Mr. Gordon told me this himself one time). Right now, the UKJ is deciding on how to do conversions for non-Jews. Since the known history of Karaism, virtually all "converts" to Karaite Judaism have been from Rabbinic Judaism.--Josiah 19:54, Jan 7, 2005 (UTC)

Yoshiah,

That may very well be the case, having gained most of my information online. I am quite thankful, and in fact relieved, that these "Internet Karaites," as you said, do not represent any sort of traditional approach to Karaite Judaism. I am very interested in learning more about traditional Karaite Judaism, though I'm afraid that I haven't the means to do it. Which resources would you recommend in my studies on the matter?

Also, this has introduced a bit of confusion. The Karaite Korner website, which was recommended in this article, states that "conversion" is done simply by circumcision, pledging allegiance to Israel, and living by the Torah. I am fairly certain that this is not the traditional approach to the matter, as you have stated that converts have not been taken until recently. Would it then be impossible to be a Karaite away from a Karaite community? Where may I find more authentic information on this matter?

Thanks again.

Gentleman: I don't appreciate the prejorative use of the term "Internet Karaites". All Karaites that I am aware of currently express favorable attitudes towards conversion. I am referring now to UKJ's r. Marzouk's letter favorable to conversion. Additionally, KJA's Hakham has a favorable position towards conversion, and the World Karaite Movement's Hakham Meir Rekhavi is developing on online course relating to conversion. I am one of two Jewish Karaite families living in the Greater New York area, - i.e. New York City, Long Island, & Westchester. I have raised my 11 year old son to be a Karaite. Should I not follow my conscious because the nearest Karaite Schul is 3,000 miles away in Daly City, California? I don't think so. Is this the teaching of our father Abraham? Where would we be today? [User: Eliezer ben Efraim HaKohen]

Yogensha

Some of what you have read may reflect on traditional Karaite thinking. What resources have you read so far? While the comments by the author are not always helpful, the Karaite Anthology book is a great source to start with Karaite and Ananite writings.

Let me reword what I said about conversion. Historically, virtually all of Karaite Judaism's "converts" were previously Orthodox Jews. During the past few centuries, as Karaism has been in a decline, some Karaites wouldn't allow conversions of non-Jews at all. (Though this is in contradiction with earlier Karaite writings) Since Israel's founding, the UKJ has been invovled with any official recognition of conversions, and until last fall, would not recognize any. Due to the efforts of Nehemia Gordon and the WKM, this is changing, and the UKJ is working on the way they will officially do conversions, especially since aliyah would be made by most of the converts.

Nehemia's article was correct - that is what the basic requirements are in Karaism. However, because conversions of non-Jews have not happened in ages, and the fact that aliyah will be an issue about recognizing conversions, it is easier said than done. Your questions would probably be better asked to a Karaite Hakham. Nehemiah Gordon, in paticular, would be best to ask about these issues, since he is the driving force behind progress in many of them.--Josiah 08:01, Jan 10, 2005 (UTC)

---

A particular issue that I had trouble with when I was studying this stuff a year ago was the Israel thing. How do they define "Israel", is it the government presently in the Middle-East (whose' presence and formation is highly questionable), or is it what it appears to be in the Tanakh (A covenant).

In this case I fear I have to agree with both the Liberal and Orthodox Jews, whatever the Nation of Israel is now, it does not appear to resemble anything Moses, H'Neviim and especially H'Shem Himself had in mind (unless it turns socialist and undergoes serious reforms within the Knesset to purge itself of the racists and corporate influences, then it may be an improvement, sadly, their is much chance of that happening there as over here).

69.248.43.27 06:01, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

That's nice. What does it have to do with the article? Wikipedia is not a discussion forum. This is a page for discussing the Karaite Judaism article, not for discussion of individuals' views of the State of Israel. Let's stick to the subject. Tomer^talk 11:52, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] When did Karaism start?

I noticed that the page does not indicate the time of the origin of Karaism, or whether or not this information is even available. All I can discern from the article is that the movement goes back to at least the 10th or 11th century.

According to the Karaite point of view, the Karaites are preserving (keeping) the old Torah way in the same way that 'Bnei Israel' kept all the time without any stop. That's make them start about 3500 years ago, when the Torah was given. --Neria 06:50, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The issue of the origins of Karaism could potentially have it's own article. It is complicated and hotly debated, and often centers around Anan ben David. Some claim that he founded Karaism, yet Arab historical records mention the Karaites before his lifetime, and after his lifetime mention the Karaites and the Ananites (the followers of Anan ben David) as two seperate groups. A small splathering of the issue is covered on the Anan ben David page. For now, it is probably best that the issue of Karaism's beggingings be avoided.--Josiah 08:08, Jan 10, 2005 (UTC)

If we define Karaism as a Jewish school of thought which believes that the only divine books containing Jewish law can be found in the TaNaKh, then it is clear that Karaism started before the name was attached to it. Clearly, King David was a Karaite. Making the most important speech of his life to his son Solomon who is about to attain the kingship of Israel, David said: "...keep the charge of the LORD thy God, to walk in His ways, to keep His statutes, and His commandments, and His ordinances, and His testimonies, according to that which is written in the law of Moses, that thou mayest prosper in all that thou doest, and whithersoever thou turnest thyself." Melakhim Aleph [Kings 1] 2:3. David, though, wouldn't have thought of calling himself a Karaite because there were no SECTS of Judaism in his day to speak of. [Eliezer ben Efraim HaKohen]

You are welcome to your theological views, however one must maintain NPOV on wikipedia. On a sidenote, much of the Tanakh hadn't been written in King David's time...--Josiah 04:24, Feb 21, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] External links

the websites in question are from exchristians who are not affiliated with any *real* karaites anymore. Can you explain? --Neria 09:25, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The websites in question are run by 2 persons in Arkansas who once kept regular internet contact with the World Karaite Movement, and for a few years were associated with it. However, they have left it after criticisms of beliefs they carried from Christianity which had no biblical support, such as the Christian Apostle Paul's thoughts on "the spirit of the law". They are no longer affiliated with any Karaites, but they have retained the name. They are neither familiar with the works of the Karaite Hakhamim of the past, nor able to speak Hebrew.--Josiah 21:06, Feb 12, 2005 (UTC)

This should probably be described in the article itself, rather than just being deleted. Jayjg ^(talk) 03:48, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Why?--Josiah 00:00, Feb 14, 2005 (UTC)

Because the NPOV policy demands that these kinds of controversies be described, giving the positions of both sides, rather than eliminated. Jayjg ^(talk) 02:59, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I didn't say that I don't agree with Josiah... Yet. May be I don't know enough.

Nehemia G. is the head of the WKM, right? If he has no connection with them, how come that he is with them on the pictures they show on thier sites from Sukkot?

What exactly they carried from Christianity, which had no biblical support. Can you add more info?

Anyway, I think it is important to write about those guys... Don't you think so? --Neria 08:45, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I think so. You don't have to support what they say, but they should at least be described in a NPOV way. Jayjg ^(talk) 15:03, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

An e-mail that I get:

PalTalk Shabbat Reminder

Join us on Erev Shabbat (called Friday night Feb 18, 2005 on your calendar)

YahChannah Wolf will present "What Will You Do When I Am Gone?"

Please invite others whom you feel may benefit from these Study Meetings!

This invitation is to all. We are learning much in these meetings.

http://karaites-usa.org

http://www.karaite-korner.org

http://qumran.com

Meeting Schedule

1. PalTalk Sessions (If you do not have PalTalk, go to http://paltalk.com to download, it is a free program)

PalTalk meetings are held by Qumran Bet each beginning of Shabbat (Friday night) at 8:00 P.M. Central. We may be found under category: Religious Group: AmYHWH. For more information e-mail yahchannah@karaites-usa.org We are making no claims to being a part of WKM. We are under the auspices of Karaites-USA and Qumran Bet Community. We appreciate the sharing of the WKM

Karaite Korner

http://www.karaite-korner.org/

"Remember the Law of Moses, My servant,

Which I commanded him in Horeb for all Israel,

With the statutes and judgments.

Malechi4:4

Don't it prove that they are associated with the WKM and the Karaite-Koner? --Neria 19:10, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I was told otherwise by another Karaite I know. However, to be sure, I will email Nehemia Gordon--Josiah 02:57, Feb 15, 2005 (UTC)

[Eleizer ben Efraim HaKohen replies: Is the above the kind of discussion that brings credit to the Karaite community to the rest of the world? Is this the image that Karaites seek to project? I think not. There is enough Lashon Harah spread by Rabbinates about ourselves...we don't need to create this kind of conversation about ourselves in public. ]

• Wikipedia doesn't exist to bring credit to the communities of any type. Its goal is to produce unbiased articles by mass cooperation with thousands of users. Your input is welcome, but it is the majority which (in the end) decides. You are welcome to join the discussion and offer your arguments in the conversation that I, Jayjg, and Neria have been having. (btw, neither I nor Jayjg are Karaites)--Josiah 04:21, Feb 21, 2005 (UTC)

I have looked into the information I had been passed along and I was grossly misinformed about the situation, I am sorry for any confusion this has caused.--Josiah 21:33, Feb 26, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The main reason?

"These actions were intended to convince the Russian Czar that they could not have killed Jesus, which was an underlying reason for the anti-semitic laws."

Now, we all live in the real world, don't we? What sort of analysis, please pardon me, might this be? --VKokielov 06:30, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Josiah insisted on this text, and I wasn't able to convince him otherwise. It still looks like original research to me. Jayjg ^(talk) 16:25, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Jayjg, I don't have the citations before me, but the original reason for the tsarist oppression of Jews was related to the charge of deicide. From what I've read, however, it was because of a desire to avoid the excessive taxes charged against Jews (for being Jews) as well as the oppressive conscription policies of the tsarist régimes, that led the Qara'i communities to try to seek exemptions from the tsars. They did not claim, however, to not be Jews, they claimed to be real Jews, which they clarified as "not followers of the Rabbanim", whom the Russians identified as leaders of the Jews. Because the Qara'im denounced the rabanim as reprobates, and in accordance with their agenda, identified the rabanim as those who led the Jews in inciting the rabble to clamor for the execution of Jesus (despite the fact that it appears that it was the Tzedoqim, not the Prushim who were leading the clamor), they won the pity (for being "the righteous" among such a reprobate people) and consequently won exemption from the oppression levied against their fellow Jews. As a result of this, understandably, the Rabbanite Jews held them in utter disdain, not only for their beliefs as qara'im any longer, but worse, for their willingness to sell their brother into bondage in order to benefit themselves, a mistrust and hatred which was only deepened by the actions of many prominent Qara'i leaders in Lita during the Sho'a. Tomer ^TALK 04:05, Apr 15, 2005 (UTC)

But...there's a difference between a reason and a justification. --VKokielov 05:35, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

No argument here, but your point has no relevance to the article... Tomer ^TALK 07:54, Apr 15, 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps you should fix the article, then. Jayjg ^(talk) 17:10, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I still don't have the sources before me. when I do, I'll take that up, if no one else has done so. What little free time I have for right now I'd like to use fleshing out the Judæo-Persian languages articles...just as soon as I finish figuring out my taxes and get prepped for shabat.  :-p Tomer ^TALK 19:59, Apr 15, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Nazarene Karaites

I removed the following section, entitled "Nazarene Karaites" from the article:

===Nazarene Karaites===

Originally a 1st century sect of Judaism, the Nazarenes have reemerged after a 2,000 year hiatus as a sect of modern Karaism. The modern Nazarene Karaite movement (AKA Qaryanic Movement) began in 2004. A Southern Baptist by the name of Ya'qub had been involved in the Messianic Jewish movement in 2003, but had become disturbed by the prevalence of Jewish Rabbinism within the movement. After reading about Karaism and perusing the writings of well-known and respected Karaite Nehemia Gordon, Ya'qub began speaking out against the Oral Torah and ultimately left the Messianic Jewish movement. He also criticized Southern Baptists for being too "Gentile," and claimed that Protestantism was "plagued by ignorance." His ties to Southern Baptists, however, did not disolve. After converting to Karaism, Ya'qub paved the way for the rebirth of early Nazarene Judaism in the form of a modern Karaite sect, Nazarene Karaism (AKA Qaryanism). Qaryans, as they call themselves in English, emphasize Aramaic over Hebrew on the basis that Aramaic was the language spoken by Yshua', whom they consider to be the most influential Kariate in History and the founder of Nazarene Karaism. After extensive study of Syriac Aramaic, Ya'qub undertook a project of simplifying and modernizing the Syriac Aramaic language. He dubbed the result Qaryanic, and it was adopted for use within Qaryanic worship.

I'm not sure this information belongs in the Karaite Judaism article. If this section, as written, is factually correct (note that the anonymous author of all of this information provides no source material) it appears to be much more relevant in Messianic Judaism or Nazarene#Modern_movements. What's here sounds rather POV (and rather like original research), but perhaps that's just me. I recommend that this section not be included here, but rather, if there's any value to it, in its own article or in one of the two articles I've already mentioned. This stuff sounds eerily like the "Nazarene Judaism" stuff that caused a minor uproar at Talk:Nazarene a month or so ago... Tomer ^TALK 21:09, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)

Dear user who originally wrote the abovementioned content and who has now at least twice tried to delete it from this talk page: Please leave it here. It's not likely to make its way back into the article, but leaving this discussion here does nothing to detract from the article, and may help in guaranteeing the integrity of the article in the future. Tomer ^TALK 06:24, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC)

Christianity has nothing to do with Karaism. Most Karaites would be offended at even the slightest suggestion that the Messianic movement has anything to do with their beliefs - I think Isaac Troki's polemic Chizzuk Emunah should be proof enough of that.--Josiah 03:31, July 11, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Removing French Karaite Chatgroup link

I removed

• Karaite community in France

from the External links for a variety of reasons:

(1) The group's main page info is in French almost exclusively, eventhough it says it's a bilingual group.

(2) It's a Yahoo! group which contains no reliable information. While I consider this to be sufficient reason to delete the link, I realize others don't, and to prove I'm not just on a crusade against Yahoo! chat groups, please read (3)

(3) The information on the group's page clearly states that the Qara'im are inheritors of the Judaism of the Bnei Tzadoq (a made-up group), which it then goes on to clearly associate with the Tzeduqim (Sadducees), with which the Qara'im most certainly are not associated, and from which their ideology is most certainly not descended. In fact, to call the Qara'im Tzeduqim is an erroneous slur flung against them by their Rabbanite opponents, in part as a way of cursing them with extinction (since the Tzeduqim had been wiped out for over 700 years by the time the arguments between the Rabbanites and the Qara'im came to the fore).

Ordinarily I wouldn't take such pains to explain my rationale for deleting such an unreliable link, but since it took the anon who inserted it several attempts to "get it right", I wouldn't be even mildly surprised if it shows up again...and I thoroughly intend to delete it again if it does. Tomer ^TALK 17:09, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)

Hi Tomer,

What about putting in http://talmidisme.over-blog.com in the link list (nothing that it is in French)? Seems like it's also a (maybe the same?) Karaite group in France of Crimean origin but it's quite a detailed website with history, practice and Torah commentary.

Looks good. Tomer ^TALK 17:34, July 10, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Karaylar and Karaites

I noticed that the entry for the Karaylar redirects to Karaite Judaism. Perhaps it should point to the Crimean Karaim instead. If I remember correctly, I believe the Karaim are not actually Karaites in religion; they revere Muhammad and Jesus as Prophets, and they disavow themselves being Jews. This had led to much confusion regarding the topic of Karaites, especially with regard to the Holocaust. This new redirect could clarify a few ambiguities.

Yogensha 01:11, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] History section

I think the History of Karaism section could be much improved with only a little work. Unfortunately, I'm too much of a non-expert to do it. In particular, when was "The Golden Age of Karaism"? Also, since we're talking about history here, maybe the section could be placed in chronological order? — Nowhither 23:15, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] ORIGINS

This article desrerately needs a better history section, which should cover the origins of Karaism. Whoever undertakes this should remember the basic journalistic rule: who, what, where, when, and why should go in the lead. Explication should follow. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Adam Holland (talk • contribs) .

[edit] Yoseif Yaron

FYI, someone started an article for Yoseif Yaron. It's in the list of dead-end pages and I don't know enough about the subject to know whether the article should be deleted or kept. The list of dead-end pages is a dangerous place for an article to be so someone might want to fix it up and integrate it into the rest of Wikipedia before someone deletes it. —Wknight94 (talk) 21:45, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

• Since Google search showed a good number of references to Yoseif Yaron and his books I've done some basic wikification of the article and removed it from the dead end list. However it could certainly use some help from someone with real knowledge or Karaite Judaism. Thanks! Cje 09:32, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Some Confusing Wording

In the listing part of the Karaites and the Mishnah section, I really couldn't figure out what the first number meant (well, I could get the gist of it, but it was still pretty oddly worded). Same thing with number three-- at least to me. I'm not at all familiar with Karaite Judaism so I wouldn't go in and reword it to convey the meaning simply enough myself, but if someone else can, I think that would be good. Unless it's just me being dumb and confused (which I wouldn't rule out).

[edit] Karaites and Reform?

Is there ANYTHING to substantiate this connection? Seeing as Reform Judaism is a purely rabbinic movement, and given their liberal tendencies, I would be hard-pressed to believe that Karaites, especially those with a fundamentalist streak, would affiliate themselves with the URJ. Perhaps there is a link to prove this point? --OneTopJob6 03:25, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Reform Judaism's "liberal" tendancies prevent would prevent religous Karaites as affiliating with them, unless the Karaites in question were not very religous and carried those same "liberal" tendancies. -JD

[edit] Incorrect Numbers

There are some incorrect numbers here. This page claims that Karaism only reached a height of 10% of world jewry, however during the "Golden Age of Karaism" 40% of world Jewry were Karaites. Durings those days Jewry was not united, and there were many sects. Karaite Sage Ya'acov Al-Kirkisani wrote a brief history of some of these sects. See also http://www.jewfaq.org/movement.htm where the 40% figure is mentioned. http://www.eajc.org/publish_gen_e.php?rowid=100 gives the number as 30-40%. Today there are approximately 30,000 Karaites. Figures range as high as 50,000. This overall population number is not mentioned, and should be. --JD

Also, the introduction section says there are 100 Karaite families living in Istanbul currently, while the section on Karaite Judaism today says there are 50 individual Karaites living in Istanbul currently. Clearly one of these is wrong.

[edit] 1911 EB

The 1911 Britannica article on Karaites is located here: http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Qaraites

Could be of use... zafiroblue05 | Talk 03:46, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Status

Does anyone think it would be helpful to add a section on the status of Rabbinic Jews in the view of the Karaite law: are they Jews or not (since they follow matrilineal descent)? Also, this could discuss the status of Karaite Jews (not people born as Rabbinic Jews who now practice Karaite Judaism but traditional Karaite communities, obviously) in Rabbinic halakha. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by NYCJosh (talk • contribs) 22:45, 3 December 2006 (UTC).

Go for it, just keep WP:NPOV, WP:NOR, WP:CITE and WP:RS in mind. Tomer^talk 23:57, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Semantics in Header

I'm not sure the description "denomination of Judaism" is quite accurate. Karaites claim to follow the true Judaism, while mainstream Judaism recognizes Karaites as a breakaway sect, rather than as a denomination along the lines of Conservative, Chassidic, etc. Thoughts? -- Chabuk ^{[ T • C ]} 20:49, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

• The use of the word "denomination" regarding any group of Jews is problematic. As far as I'm aware, Conservative and Reform Jews don't regard themselves as "denominations", but call themselves "movements". Tomer^talk 23:56, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Chabuk in that I have never heard the term denomination used to refer to the Karaites. I have have only heard the word sect used, with "denomination" reserved for Conservative, Reform, Orthodox, etc. I would argue that "sect" is also more correct, because the other groups mentioned all claim to derive their philosophies from ideas expressed in the Oral Law (e.g. Tikkun Olam), whereas Karaite Judaism makes a more fundamental break. As for "denomination" being problematic, why? It doesn't have any offensive connotations. nadav 09:20, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I was about to change demonination to sect when I found the this hidded comment there: "please see the discussion, 'sect' seems to be incorrect". I didn't find anything in the archived talk page or this page about this issue. Does anyone know where it is? nadav 09:28, 15 April 2007 (UTC) And anyways, the linked-to page Jewish denominations does indeed call Karaite Judaism a sect of Judaism. nadav 11:16, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Changed it after asking the editor. nadav 05:40, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Changed it BACK. Sect sounds as a bad thing. --Neria 14:04, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Definitely not a denomination; a breakaway sect.--Redaktor 17:53, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

This is an Orthodox Judaism POV! from my ponit of view the Orthodox is a breakaway sect.

As I said, Sect sounds as a bad thing. and we don't wan't to be NPOV, right?

You can call it movement, you can call it branch, but not a sect. --Neria 20:35, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Why do you think sect is bad? According the article, the word only had a negative connotation for Christian religions a long time ago. But in other religions there is no problem. It's the accepted word for referring to Shiites and Sunnis as well as several Indian religions. There is no pejorative meaning. For the Karaites, it is also the accepted word. Note that they even refer to themselves that way (see [3]). nadav 22:24, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

It will be OK if we call all the jewish denominations "sects". If you try to call just the "karaite judaism" sect - you are wrong, because you become NPOV.

About the web page of the KJA, I am sure it is a mistake. An by the way they call all the jewish denominations "sects". - If you won't do it - It become NPOV.

As a karaite, I know it is insulting. As the writer of the Hebrew article on he:יהדות קראית, I now that some jews use this word in order to say that the karaite are: "breakaway sect" (as one said here). this is NPOV, as it will be [NPOV]] if I'll write that "'Karaism is the original form of Judaism as prescribed by God in the Torah" [4].

Please don't try to use a word that karaites don't call themselves by it.

And even if "The word sect has no modern negative connotation in non-Christian religions", It will be better to use one word for all the jewish branches, a word that don't remind the the negative connotation in Christian religions. As I said You can call it movement or you can call it branch.

Pleasr don't start an edit war.--Neria 06:31, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Movement is much better. I glad you found a compromise. Shmuliko 05:56, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Why not call it a stream of Judaism. There are many other streams like orthodox, reform, conservative, etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fillesy (talk • contribs) 18:43, August 29, 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Problems and merits of the article, so far

This Karaism article is obviously off to a great start, and shows promise for being a very good, informative article. I don't see many problems/edit wars ensuing. The main issues are its lack of organization in some places, its lack of length and attention to detail on some issues, and the total absence of citations. Obviously for anyone that fluently reads Hebrew that version is a great template to go off of; it is a featured article. Noogster 02:01, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Chayim Tchernowitz (Rav Tzair) in his Toldeot Ha-Posekim writes that specific statements in Maimonides and the Sheiltos were expressly written to counteract Kariate views. Thus most of the discusions in Sheiltos involve Rabbinic laws that the Karaites denied and Maimonides emphasised the biblical source for rabbinic practices that the Karaites argued against. Perhaps this can be a beginning to a section on Rabbinic response to Karaism.Wolf2191 02:51, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Please Add Alternate Spelling

in my attempt to find an article on karaites, i had three alternate methods of spelling 'karaite' without any direction to this article (that I found it at all was pure luck). if I can suggest; Karite, Carite, Qa'Rite, Karrite and any others so that may be directed to this page when put to into search engine, thank you. Axedmt 04:26, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Karite usually refers to shea butter, an additive in beauty products. I added a disambiguation notice at the top. I made Carite into a redirect for now, but it will eventually require a disambiguation page since Carite is also the name of various people, places in Puerto Rico, and a Venezuelan song. Karrite is a trademark, so I hesitate to make that a redirect. Qa'Rite looks like an unlikely spelling, but if you insist, I'll make that a redirect as well. nadav 04:50, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New article

From the JPost. Tomer^talk 08:02, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

This article has some factual errors. As a participant in the ceremony, I should know what happened there.

The converts swore to take on the G-d of Israel and the people of Israel nothing was sworn to as "fealty" Karaite Judaism. Thus the converts joined the jewish people. In addition, there were 4 remarriage ceremonies conducted after the conversion.

Yochanan —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.109.86.17 (talk) 23:44, August 22, 2007 (UTC)

[edit] POV

This article is about karaite jews, not the always arguaging rabbinics.It is OK to write about the diffs, but critics should be in a different section. - I think - user:tothaa

[edit] Reverting vandalisms

I was going to revert the edits of User:Travisl91 (Diff), which seem vandally, but frankly the previous version I'd be reverting to seems a little hincky too, in the wording, as if words have been deleted. Perhaps someone more familiar with the article could go over that? Ford MF 22:41, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Karaköy

The claim that the name of Karaköy (a neighbourhood on the European side of Istanbul) derives from that of the Karaites seems extremely dubious to me. In Turkish, Karaköy's meaning (like those of most Istanbul neighbourhoods) is perfectly transparent: it means 'black village'. Q·L·1968 ☿ 22:27, 2 September 2007 (UTC)