Talk:Kansas Turnpike

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Contents

[edit] Length

A quick comment: the Turnpike is 236 miles long. This is the distance to US 69 (18th Street Expressway), not to K-7, the end of tolls. It would also be nice to have details on the east end and what it originally connected to in 1956; I'll see what I can get out of the NBI (assuming not all bridges have been rebuilt). I'll also add some history on the original plan for I-35 via Newton. --SPUI (T - C) 03:14, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Do you have details on exactly which interchanges opened in 1956? Here's what I can find:

0. US 166 probably 1956
  1. US 160 probably 1956
    K-53 not on [1]
    Haysville not on [2]
  2. US 81/I-135 definitely 1956
  3. K-15 definitely 1956
  4. US 54 definitely 1956
    K-96 not on [3]
    Andover not on [4]
  5. K-254 definitely 1956
    US 77 not on [5]
    K-177 no idea - weird interchange [6], but not in the original numbering
  6. US 50/I-35 definitely 1956
  7. US 56 definitely 1956
  8. US 75/I-470 definitely 1956
  9. US 40/I-70 probably 1956, but can't be sure as it's been rebuilt
    K-10 not on [7]
  10. US 59 definitely 1956
  11. US 24/US 59 definitely 1956
  12. K-7 definitely 1956
    110th Street not on [8]
    I-435 under construction on [9]
    78th Street not on [10]
    US 40 - NBI clearly shows 1956 for the bridge of the ramp over US 40 - but only west-pointing ramps on 1966 KDOT map! The Turner Diagonal to the south is 1958/1959 - so presumably that's when the original half-interchange opened.
    57th Street not on [11], built ca. 1986 (from bridge on eastbound onramp over creek)
    I-635 built ca. 1974
  13. Park Drive unsure - on 1966 KDOT map, with a west-facing folded diamond
  14. US 69/18th Street definitely 1956

So if US 160 and US 166 are original, and Park Drive isn't, that's 14. --SPUI (T - C) 13:57, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm... who owned the tolled 18th Street Expressway? --SPUI (T - C) 05:39, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bridge dates on I-70 east of the Turnpike

  • 1980 over 18th Street (US 69) - ramp over railroad is 1956
  • 1956 over Service Road
  • 1957 under 10th Street
  • 1990 under Mill Street
  • 1958 eastbound under 7th Street (US 69/US 169)
  • 1957 westbound over 7th Street (US 69/US 169)
  • 1959 over Service Road
  • 1959 under Central Avenue
  • 1993 westbound over 5th Street
  • 1962 westbound over US 24 east
  • 1907 eastbound over Kansas River
  • 1963 westbound over Kansas River

1956 map - nothing yet

1969 map - obviously all done; check out US 40! Also note the barrier toll location, and the Kaw Drive interchange (rebuilt ca. 1974 when I-635 was built).


[edit] Interchanges

14 interchanges is definitely correct. It's specifically mentioned in the KTA pamphlet I have.

I have a map of Kansas from 1974 that I found in my mapbox, and it shows something interesting - the Kansas Turnpike originally used sequential exit numbering, starting at 0. Or rather, insequential numbering, as the numbering jumps from 5 to 14 and then to 6 (probably built out of order). The interchanges it shows are:

  • 0 - current exit 4
  • 1 - current 19 (toll booth under bridge)
  • Current 33 (to K-53) did not exist in 1974 (K-53 runs under the turnpike, so the bridges would have been built in 1956)
  • Current 39 (to U.S. 81) did not exist in 1974
  • 2 - current 42
  • 3 - current 45
  • 4 - current 50
  • The K-96 freeway did not exist in 1974. Instead K-96 was concurrent with U.S. 54 where they crossed under the turnpike. So current 53 did not exist.
  • Current 57 (Andover) did not exist in 1974
  • 5 - current 71
  • Current 76 (U.S. 77 El Dorado) did not exist in 1974
  • 14 - current 92
  • 6 - current 127
  • 7 - current 147
  • 8 - current 177
  • 9 - current 182
  • 10 - current 197 (then it appeared to serve U.S. 40 rather than K-10)
  • 11 - current 202
  • Current 204 (U.S. 24/59) did not exist in 1974
  • 12 - current 224

I have no clue where 13 was. I'd guess either current 410 (not sure how old this is, it may have been built to service the KS Speedway), Turner Diag, or 18th St. (That part of I-435 wasn't built yet so it couldn't have been the I-70/435 interchange.)

According to my mom, who lived in Kansas City, Ks. through the 60s and 70s, 18th St. was tolled then (this is confirmed on the 1974 map, and another I have of just Kansas City). The 1974 map has the toll section as running from I-70/KTA down to the Metropolitan/Ruby exit, the rest free, and the whole length of it was K-58 (I). It could have served as a spur from the turnpike, assuming KTA administered it. Still-existing signs at that interchange mark the beginning/end of KTA maintenance, but between the tolled part and those signs it seems more likely that KDOT is maintaining it, as the surface looks more like KDOT's and the signage is demountable copy (KTA uses direct-applied). I'd like to know the story about that.

I think the reason that you had trouble finding the info was because it looks like in most cases the bridges were built with the highway, but with no access. They just stuck the ramps on later. There's still a lot of bridges on the turnpike you go under or over that have no access. Hopefully those maps will help you find out more about our missing interchanges and when they were built. —Scott5114↗ 05:56, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

When is the KTA pamphlet from?
As for exit 14, that indicates it was added after the original construction. --SPUI (T - C) 06:08, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
You say that exit 10 was where K-10 is now. But [12] shows nothing at all there. --SPUI (T - C) 06:10, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
I bet 13 was the east barrier toll. [13] shows its original location. --SPUI (T - C) 06:13, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
I misread the map. Looking at the inset, Exit 10 is not for a highway, but a Lawrence city street (which the map doesn't name). 40 and 59 duplex along 6th St., across the Kansas River and under the turnpike, and to U.S. 24, which 40 gets onto and 24 begins duplexing with 59. To help you with your cites, the 1974 map is of Texaco branding but the copyright on the map is by the H.M. Gousha Company.
The pamphlet's undated. I remember picking it up at either Towanda or Matfield Greene in the late 1990s or early 2000s though. —Scott5114↗ 06:21, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
Exit 11 is in fact current 204 by the way. —Scott5114↗ 06:23, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
I believe Exit 10 above is the current exit 202. It actually exits to McDonald Drive [14], about 1/2 mile north of 6th and Iowa (the western point in Lawrence where US 40 and US 59 meet). US 59 only crosses the turnpike once (exit 204), but McDonald Drive (exit 202) is used as a 59 South exit because it bypasses a couple of miles of Lawrence streets and quite a few stoplights. Exit 197 opened in 1996 when K-10 was extended as a bypass around the SW corner of Lawrence. --Sppence 03:40, 13 July 2006 (UTC)


Found this from m.t.r. --SPUI (T - C) 06:49, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

more on the eastern toll booth --SPUI (T - C) 08:43, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

statutes dealing with the KTA --SPUI (T - C) 08:54, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

new interchanges - 33, 57, 39, 53, 76, 197
Kansas City to southeast corner
Wichita to Tulsa
Winfield to southeast corner
Ottawa south to Oklahoma
Mullinville west to Colorado
Leon to Fredonia
new interchanges - 197, 76, 33, 57
--SPUI (T - C) 09:07, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

18th Street Expressway was originally the 18th Street Trafficway - see [15]. It appears that only the part south of Argentine Boulevard had this name - it is now Argentine Boulevard south of the river, and crossed the rail yard before ending at present Miami Avenue and Strong Avenue. --SPUI (T - C) 14:52, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

"My 1982 road atlas shows the exit to K-132 (now an unnumbered road) as exit 231" --SPUI (T - C) 09:34, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Letter from KTA

I wrote to KTA asking for more information a few weeks ago. They didn't send any more, but they did say:

We have checked your site and the information you have on the Kansas Turnpike is accurate. You have a lot of good information on the history and background of our Kansas tollroad.

So at least, we're on the right track. —Scott5114↗ 23:10, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Useful article

[16] could be useful --SPUI (T - C) 17:49, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Exit numbers from 1965 Rand McNally atlas

  • 0 South Haven - U.S. 166
  • 1 Wellington - U.S. 160
  • 2 South Wichita - U.S. 81
  • 3 Wichita - Kans. 15 (Boeing Plant)
  • 4 East Wichita - U.S. 54
  • 5 El Dorado - Kans. 196
  • 14 Cassoday - Kans. 177
  • 6 Emporia - U.S. 50
  • 7 Admire - U.S. 56
  • 8 South Topeka - U.S. 75
  • 9 East Topeka - U.S. 40
  • 10 West Lawrence - U.S. 40 & 59
  • 11 East Lawrence - U.S. 59 & 40
  • 12 Bonner Springs - Kans. 7
  • 13 Eastern Terminal [longer space] Turner Diagonal - U.S. 40 - Kans. 132 & Kans. 32 & 58

--SPUI (T - C) 00:16, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Date Error

I recently went up to Watson Library to check out the original source material (i.e. Microfilm of the Topeka Daily Capital and the Lawrence Journal-World) and found that the Kansas Turnpike was opened for a "free preview" on the 20th of October (rather than the 21st). Next time I go back to Watson, I'll scan the source pages and prepare the citations

Oh, BTW, who put in the references to "Milestones"? route56 06:53, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GA Review

Good article. Two comments: the administration section is far too short and should be expanded or folded into another section, and the images of road signs towards the bottom get a little cluttered - you might reconsider using them. - Mocko13 00:16, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Could a table be used to place that in another format? I'm thinking about something like the list of exits on Interstate_355... I'd be happy to try it, unless someone thinks the straight text is a better way to go at it. You could always revert me if you don't like it, I suppose. ----Steve 20:38, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
The article did once have a standard exit list, but it was expanded to prose to add more detail about the history of each interchange and its design. The road sign clutter has been deleted, now, anyway. —Scott5114↗ 06:13, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Construction

Hi. Should this article discuss any of the construction projects going on?

E.g. I don't think I saw in the article anywhere how many lanes it is, if that's appropriate for an article like this. (Two, mostly, but I can't remember about Wichita and KC, and of course the nearly-completed expansion to 3 lanes from Lecompton to Topeka.)

And I haven't exited at Emporia in a couple of years but that exit is under construction. According to my mom this is because its design made it really prone to accidents, but obviously that isn't proper verifcation for Wikipedia. -- 66.45.137.204 08:11, 22 March 2007 (UTC) (just a random wikipedian passing through here)

[edit] Wikipedia is not a reliable source

^ a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z National Bridge Inventory

SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:13, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

That's not referring to the Wikipedia article, that's referring to the actual inventory. —Scott5114↗ 14:31, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Then it should *link* to or include a reference to the actual inventory—what is it, a website, a book, a brochure? Where do our readers find the information sourced? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:36, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
NBI is a database of all bridges in the United States. I believe there are multiple ways of accessing it, but one is through http://www.nationalbridges.com/. As for how to format the ref, I'm not sure. I suppose cite web would work. I can't edit the article right now because of an overaggressive school cleanfilter, though. —Scott5114↗ 16:26, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Gimmetrow fixed the NBI sources - there are numerous other problems - I left inline notes and verify tags, and completing a lot of missing information. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:36, 30 March 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Exit 410 110th Street Interchange

I an very well disagreeing with the reason why Exit 410 was built. It claims that it was built for the proposed Kansas Speedway track but the exit was under constrution and opened in 1996 while Kansas Speedway was proposed over a year later. My source for the counter claim is at [17] and it clearly shows that It wasn't proposed until late 1997. I personally don't know why the 110th Street Interchange was built but I know for a fact that wasn't a reason why. Sawblade05 18:59, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I have removed the claim from the article. Whatever the reason the exit was built, it's not really important to the article. —Scott5114↗ 05:23, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] External link repair

This article is in need of some major external link repair. A lot of the references link to a 404, see results here on link checker: [18]. --Holderca1 talk 01:45, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, I've done what I can. KTA apparently reorganized their website, breaking most of the references to them. I did notice they started a new K-Tag program in the process though; I'll include that in the article. —Scott5114↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 02:38, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Lead is clearly too short

The lead here clearly fails to meet the guidelines. It's a long article with a tiny lead that would fail GA by any clueful editor at the blink of an eye. Lead > 30,000 characters: three or four paragraphs (an amount in kilobytes would be better, as anything can be made into more paragraphs by hitting enter a few times). I seriously think the FA team need to go back to school. Richard001 (talk) 00:49, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

The point of the lead isn't to reach X number of characters, but to accurately summarize the article in a useful way. So what does this lead lack in its actual content, as opposed to the number of beans there are to count "in the blink of an eye"? --Rividian (talk) 01:14, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
That's nonsense. Anything can be summarized in a shorter or longer number of words by trimming down the details and leaving out less important things. I could summarize your life in seven brief sentences, though I would have to leave out a lot of the details. It does require a little effort to go through and write a slightly more thorough lead (I think three times the current length would be a good level of detail), but that's part of meeting the FA (and even GA) criteria. I'm not surprised this has been missed though; people here are extraordinarily ignorant about what a lead section is supposed to be, and underdone leads are like shells on a beach.
I've also raised the problem of paragraphs vs. actual length on the lead section page if anyone is interested. Richard001 (talk) 01:22, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
Again, what content from the article isn't summarized in the lead? Have you even checked? --Rividian (talk) 01:24, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
Most of it is mentioned there, at a ratio of about one sentence per page. If you want to get a five second tour of the subject the lead is okay, but if you want something that gives a reasonable overview (or meets the minimum requirements) you have to read the whole thing, which is a bit taxing. It's that this was approved without any objection regarding the lead that annoys me. Richard001 (talk) 01:48, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
You still haven't explained any way the article would be better... just longer. Leads don't exist to fill space, they exist to summarize the article. If you'd mentioned things the lead could summarize that it doesn't yet, you'd have been talking about ways to improve the article. You just are talking about having it fill space more space because some guideline says so. Honestly, we could replace you with a robot if you're just counting characters. --Rividian (talk) 03:10, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm trying to expand it a little. --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 01:33, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
Wow, nice job. Richard001 (talk) 02:54, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Tolled freeway?!

This is an oxymoron. Reading further, I find that part of the Turnpike is a toll road and part is a freeway, but the phrase "tolled freeway" still makes no sense. TJSwoboda (talk) 02:27, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

I thought the same. "Tolled superhighway" is more accurate. dhett (talk • contribs) 02:47, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
A freeway is a road free of intersections, and can have tolls. --NE2 02:51, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, but your definition is NOT universally correct. The term FREEWAY originated in California, and it was defined as having a minimum of four requirements:

  1. A highway that is free of intersections, but is served by Flying Junctions (otherwise known as Cloverleaf Junctions) to major roads.
  2. A road that is free of TOLLS, but is financed through Taxpayer Financing.
  3. A road that has multiple lanes that permit motor vehicles to operate at optimal speeds without unnecessarily affecting the progress of other motor vehicles.
  4. A road that is open to use by motor vehicles of all classes without unnecessary limitation.

There are many other names for this kind of road.

A TOLL ROAD is defined as a road which otherwise fulfills the requirements of a Freeway, but charges Tolls for all or part of its length. There are two major variations.

  1. A Fixed Toll road charges defined tolls at designated Toll Gates that have little if anything to do with distance. The poster children for this type of Toll Road are the Kansas Turnpike, and New Jersey's Garden State Parkway.
  2. A Distance Toll road charges tolls that are based on formulas based on the distance traveled. The Poster Children for this kind of Toll Road are the Pennsylvania Turnpike, New Jersey Turnpike and the New York Thruway.

The name Turnpike is the oldest name for a Toll Road in the United States. It originally designated a Turnstile Pike, and it dates from the early 1800's. A user would stop at the Turnstile, pay his toll, and be permitted to proceed through the Turnstile or Toll Gate.

--SSG Cornelius Seon (Retired) (talk) 15:45, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

NE 2 is correct, that definition is a very strict definition from CA. A freeway is any roadway that has limited access. The "Free" in freeway refers to the absence of intersections and stopping. Southern Illinois SKYWARN (talk) 15:52, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
You're also incorrect about the method of tolling the Kansas Turnpike uses. Tolls are calculated based on distance traveled and the number of axles the vehicle has. —Scott5114↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 18:06, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

The article says that the Kansas Turnpike is part free and part toll. That means that they cannot use the formula approach because they are not charging for the free portions. QED. SSG Cornelius Seon (Retired) (talk) 03:48, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Your comment doesn't make sense. The existence of an untolled portion doesn't mean you can't use a distance-based toll system for the tolled portion. --Polaron | Talk 03:58, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Here is what Merriam-Webster Unabridged has to say on the subject:
  • Main Entry: freeway
  • Function: noun
  • 1 : an expressway with fully controlled access
  • 2 : a toll-free highway -- compare PARKWAY, TURNPIKE
  • Citation format for this entry:
  • Main Entry: 1turnpike
  • Function: noun
  • Etymology: Middle English turnepike, from turnen to turn + pike (point)
  • 1 obsolete : a revolving frame bearing spikes and used as a barrier in medieval warfare
  • 2 : TOLL BAR, TOLLGATE
  • 3 or turnpike road or a toll road; especially :
    a toll expressway
    b : a free road originally maintained as a toll road
    c : a main road : a paved highway having a crowned surface
  • 4 Scotland : a winding spiral stairway
  • Citation format for this entry:

SSG Cornelius Seon (Retired) (talk) 17:59, 12 April 2008 (UTC)


Here's a document from Caltrans, where the term apparently began: [19] It includes toll roads such as SR 241 and SR 261. --NE2 18:20, 12 April 2008 (UTC)


I, too, was surprised by the use of the phrase "tolled freeway". Our article on freeway, though, seems to indicate that such phrasing is not contradictory. However, whether the phrase is strictly correct or not is an ancillary issue to the real question we should be asking - what is the best phrasing to use. As it appears that the use of "freeway" engenders confusion, perhaps we should consider if it would be better to use one of the alternatives (from Freeway: "A freeway — also known as a highway, superhighway, autoroute, autobahn, autopista, autovía, autostrada, dual carriageway, expressway, or motorway"). In this decision, I think we should use the same phrasing as is commonly used locally. Does the Kansas Turnpike Authority, the Kansas Department of Transportation, the Kansas state government, and local Kansas media most commonly refer to the Kansas Turnpike as a freeway, or do they use some other term (highway, tollway, expressway, etc.)? -- 128.104.112.85 (talk) 19:49, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

You know what, sometimes an outside person needs to come in to comment about things like this, and thank you for doing so. That really would be the logical explanation. Southern Illinois SKYWARN (talk) 20:17, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
The problem is that none of those other terms that would be used here mean the same thing. An expressway or superhighway can have intersections, and a highway can be any road. --NE2 20:19, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

There is enough confusion about the use of the term "tolled freeway" to warrant a different description. In Wikipedia articles about other named toll roads, the term "freeway" is not used (New Jersey Turnpike: toll road, Florida's Turnpike: toll road, Pennsylvania Turnpike: Tolled highway system). Superhighway would serve better, except that re-routes to Highway with very little content. The words freeway and expressway do not appear to be used on the Kansas Turnpike Authority site. The short definition in the US DOT <anual of uniform traffic control is not sufficient to brand the Kansas turnpike a freeway. How about just Turnpike or Toll Road? Group29 (talk) 13:16, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Neither of those has the same meaning as freeway: that there are no at-grade intersections. --NE2 16:39, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Since non-road geeks seem to be confused by tolled freeway, even though it makes sense to me, maybe we should just use toll road. I said this above, but I want to reinterate that the "free" in freeway means freedom from stopping and at-grade intersections. Southern Illinois SKYWARN (talk) 00:22, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
But toll road doesn't have the same meaning; a toll road can have intersections. What about "freeway-standard toll road"? --NE2 20:33, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
What about limited-access toll road or controlled-access toll road? --Holderca1 talk 20:41, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
Those terms refer to access from adjoining properties; a limited/controlled access road can have intersections. --NE2 20:45, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism

Someone vandalized this page; I hope I reverted it back to the version that received the Feature Article citation. gar in Oakland (talk) 04:57, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

What will probably happen is that it will be "cleaned up" (making sure no vandalism crept in silently) once it is off the main page. – TMF 18:11, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
This page should be locked while it is a feature article--66.57.70.56 (talk) 21:01, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
It's been semi-protected per a request at WP:RFPP. – TMF 21:51, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

This is a diff comparing the roughly pre-main page version and the current version. From what I can tell, no vandalism slipped through the cracks. The only thing missing is an interwiki link to the Spanish wiki - but the article there was deleted in November 2007, so that's fine. – TMF 18:01, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Speed Limit?

I have a question about the following lines from the lead: "Eventually, the limit was fixed at 80 mph, and remained so until 2006 when the limit was reduced to 70 mph. The 80 mph speed limit would not be enforced anywhere in the United States again until May 2006, when Texas posted the 80 mph speed limit on Interstates 10 and 20 in the western part of that state.[2]"

This statement seems quite contradictory to my personal experience. I have traveled on a section of the Kansas Turnpike along I-70 between exit 183 and 197 on a very regular basis from 2003-2008 and in that time have NEVER seen an 80mph speed limit. Furthermore, I have traveled every leg of the turnpike sometime prior to 2006 and have no recollection of this being the legal speed limit. Can anyone clarify this point and correct it in the article? DirtySocks85 (talk) 19:43, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't know where that came from; it's not what the article body says. --NE2 20:05, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
I have a feeling you were looking at a vandalized version of the article (or simply one by some helpful person who didn't really read the source text too closely). There was originally no speed limit, then an 80 mile per hour speed limit was set some time during the early years of the turnpike, but it was eventually (the article doesn't say when) knocked down to 70 and then, of course, 55 after NMSL was enacted. —Scott5114↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 20:37, 12 April 2008 (UTC)