Talk:Kamakura, Kanagawa

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[edit] Material from Russian article

The Russian article (ru:Камакура_(город)) has some more details, so I'm pasting a quick translation in here for reference. Anybody can add some of this information to the article here. I haven't tried to get the correct Romanization of Japanese names. --Reuben 01:57, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Kamakura (Jap. 鎌倉) is one of the most ancient cities of Japan, founded in 1192. It is located in Kanagawa Prefecture, on the island of Honshu.
The city is surrounded on three sides with forested mountains, and on the south looks onto the Gulf of Sagami (?). The climate of Kamakura is mild. It is an ideal winter and summer resort. Every season has its own enchantment.
The founder of Kamakura was Minamoto no Yoritomo. In 1180 he led his forces to Kamakura made it his residence: surrounded by mountains and the sea, Kamakura made a natural fortress, easily defended from enemies. In it was founded bakufu - the government in submission to the Shogun. After the fall of the Kamakura Shogunate, which existed from 1185 until 1333, the former capital was emptied and became an ordinary village, and only in the epoch of Meiji began its new life, after it began to attract artists and writers.
Today 174,000 people live in Kamakura, and every year 20 million tourists come.
The ancient rulers of Kamakura were patrons of religion and art, and invited famous Chinese monks. It is considered that the first temple here was Sugimoto-dera, founded in 734. In all, there are today 176 Shinto and Buddhist temples in Kamakura.
The temple Engakudzi is one of the famous temples of the Zen(?) sect. It consists of several structures, around which cryptomerias grow. The most interesting structure is Siariden, or the Hall of Holy Relics of Buddha. It is listed as a national property of Japan. The building was erected in 1282, and is now the oldest building of Chinese architecture in the country.
The temple Tekeidzi is a temple of the Zen(?) sect, founded in 1285. In feudal times the temple had the name "Temple of divorces," because it served as a place of banishment for unloved wives. Today the temple is famous for the flowering of plums in February, magnolias and peaches in March-April, peonies in April-May, and irises in May-June.
The temple Kentyodzi also belongs to the Zen(?) sect. It was founded in 1453, in 1415 it burned down, and afterwards again burned several times. But everyone in the temple saved the old objects, among which is a bronze bell which is a national property of Japan, cast in 1255. Interesting things to see are the main building, the Chinese gates, and the representation of the fifth ruler of the Kamakura period - Tokiyora Hodze. The temple Tsurugaoka Hatimangu is one of the main sights of Kamakura. Surrounded by sakura trees and azalea bushes, it is very picturesque. The temple was built in 1063 by an ancestor of Yoritomo, Yoriyosi, in honor of the god Hatiman, who was considered the protector of the Minamoto clan. Yoritomo in 1180 changed the location of the ancient temple, placing it in a more visible place - the crest of the hill Tsurugaoka (Crane Hill). The modern construction dates to 1828.
A wide road leading from the seashore up to the temple was built at the order of the Shogun when he found out that his wife was expecting a child. Even today this road keeps the name Vakamia Odzi - the Street of the Young Prince. On this alley stand three enormous gates called Tori, and along it are planted sakura trees.
Next to the temple are located two ponds - Gendzi and Heike. In the pond Gendzi grow white lotuses, and in Heike - red ones. The so-called Drum Bridge is also here - a humped bridge across the lotus pond. There exists a belief that, if you can climb up and cross the narrow bridge without any outside help, a long life awaits you. Next to the temple a 150-meter path intersects the alley. Here the warriors of Yorimoto practiced yabusame - shooting with bow and arrow from horseback. In April and September one can witness festivals during which warriors, dressed in uniforms of the Kamakura period, shoot from bows while seated on top of running horses.
The Kamakura Museum, built in 1928, exhibits 420 articles of art and a multitude of historical documents. Among the exhibits is a collection of articles of the Zen sect, the ukiyo-e engravings.
The Museum of Modern Art, located next to the pond Heike, was constructed in 1951, and in 1966 a new wing was built for it. Here are exhibited 120 productions of landscape, drawing, and sculpture of Japanese masters.
The temple Hase Kannon, by tradition, was erected in 736. In the principal building of the temple are located the famous gilded sculpture of the eleven-headed goddess Kannon. At a height of 9.3 m, it is the tallest wooden sculpture in Japan. According to tradition, it was prepared in 721. Another sight of the temple is the gigantic bell, cast in 1264 - the most ancient in Kamakura. It is a most important cultural value of Japan.
Kamakura is also known for the bronze statue Daibutsu - the Great Buddha, second in height in Japan (the tallest is located in Nara). Its height is 11.4 m, and it weighs 93 tons. Buddha sits under the open sky, and green hills compose a wonderful background. The statue was cast in 1252.

[edit] Hojo Regency

Hi Urashimataro,

Thanks for adding the section on the Hojo Regency, but I don't think it's right for this article. The section discusses national politics, but this is an article on the city. It's not about the city; it's about events that happened elsewhere while Kamakura was the military capital.

I'd suggest moving it to another article. Wikipedia already has an article on the Kamakura period and another on the Kamakura shogunate. It would strengthen either, particularly the latter. (There's also Jōkyū War; you've got a red link to Jōkyū Disturbance.) You can also probably remove the link to a specific torii; very few torii deserve articles.

Best regards, Fg2 (talk) 08:49, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Nitta Yoshisada

Hi, Fg2. This was the last historical section I was planning for Kamakura specifically for the reasons you quote, but I honestly thought the Regency period was relevant enough to justify its inclusion, if nothing else because Kamakura was the de facto capital and the place where the Nitta Yoshisada events took place. I propose a compromise. We move the article as you said, and I resize it in this page refocusing it on Nitta Yoshisada. About Ichi no Torii, it has an interesting history that I thought was worth a page, and I was hoping to make more people aware it's actually there and it wasn't made in the fifties. If you don't mind, I would like to leave the link there. -- 220.148.197.172 (talk) 00:01, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

To Fg2: Made the modifications I suggested. See if they are OK to you. Cheers -- 220.148.197.172 (talk) 02:42, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
It seems to be honing in on the city now. Many thanks Fg2 (talk) 07:35, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
I just realized I left the last two comments without logging in. My apologies. -- Urashimataro (talk) 02:45, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Opinion requested

Hi, FG2. I just bought the official textbook for the Kamakura Knowledge Test (Kamakura Ranko Bunka Kentei, published by the Kamakura Trade and Industry association), and found that's where most of the material I got from different sites comes from. Do you think it's worth changing the references to improve the perceived reliability of the page? I am willing to do it, but I wonder if it isn't better to have more sources of info, rather than a single one. I could add, rather than replace, but that would be messy. Urashimataro (talk) 09:45, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm, that's a bit outside my area of expertise. I'd say the Wikipedia community values print sources more than online ones. And the sources of other sources are more authoritative. Maybe that's more important than numbers? But if the same information is available both in print and on line, double citation serves a useful function: people can look it up via the Internet, and know that there's a print source to back it up. So if there's a way to add to the present sources without making it too messy it seems both reliable and convenient. But my opinion is not strong. Some people at Wikipedia:WikiProject Japan might have more insight. Thanks, Urashimataro, for really beefing up this article! Fg2 (talk) 10:21, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the advice. I will double-reference all I can. It will make further editing a little harder, but I think it will be worth it. The more I think about it, the more I believe that double-referencing is the way to go. The textbook is in Japanese, useless to most people. Knowing however that the info in English has been checked against a reliable Japanese source will be very useful. This of course assumes that I am a honest man ... -- Urashimataro (talk) 12:01, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Two opinions requested

I have been preparing a section about Festivals in Kamakura and, to limit their number, I decided to describe only those chosen by the city of Kamakura for their site. Even so it becomes easily the longest section of the article. Do you think it's OK?

Second opinion request I also was thinking of writing a shortsection about Nichiren, explaining that Kamakura was the cradle of the Nichiren Buddhist sect. Kamakura is rich of places important to the sect. Do you think it would be appropriate? Urashimataro (talk) 11:05, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, please. Be BOLD. The subjects you propose to expand are relevant and interesting. I look forward to learning more. --Tenmei (talk) 17:31, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
I agree with you and Tenmei that the subjects are relevant and interesting; however, I'd place the material in different locations within the Wikipedia project. Festivals: if this section would become the longest in the article, it sounds like a perfect opportunity to spin the material off into a daughter article. In the article on the city, a few sentences can summarize the information, and the "main" template can lead readers to the separate article. Regarding Nichiren, my opinion is that information on Nichiren belongs in the article Nichiren. The article on Kamakura should have little more than a phrase or a sentence to introduce him, apart from material directly relevant to the city (events that took place within the geographic area of the present-day city, locations etc.). Fg2 (talk) 20:28, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Fg2's idea about festivals is good. I will do that. About Nichiren, all I was planning to do was introduce him and the locations in the city (the place in Katase where he was almost beheaded, the cave where he supposedly wrote the Ankokuron, the "Nichiren Shonin Tsujiseppo Ato", the monkey cave and the disputes among temples who claim to be the real heirs of the man) that refer to him. Thanks to both.

One more question: Fg2, what is the "Main" template" and where can I find it? Sorry for the ignorance.

What about trying something like this: Why not check out Chūshingura#The Historic Events -- and then use copy-and-paste to create a link which is similar to the Main article: Forty-seven Ronin? Also, you may want to note Forty-seven Ronin#The Forty-Seven Ronin in the Arts where an elegantly contrived back-link is presented as well -- Main article: Chūshingura. I hope this helps move things along. --Tenmei (talk) 01:03, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

IC. Thx a lot, Tenmei. Urashimataro (talk) 06:01, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Guess we're thinking along the same lines. Kamakura certainly has places connected to Nichiren, and the article should include a discussion. You can see the {{main}} template in lots of articles. Now that you know what it is, you'll suddenly start noticing it everywhere. Tenmei has given good examples, and you can also see helpful advice at Wikipedia:Summary style including Wikipedia:Summary style#Levels of desired details. Best Fg2 (talk) 08:27, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Urban "Mouths" as a useful term of art

A brief mention of "mouths" is not irrelevant as a conventional description of Kamakura's Seven Entrances. I'm not saying that the term is superior -- rather, I'm persuaded that it is a necessary appositive. The term "mouth" is not so important that it needs to be mentioned more than once -- briefly; but just one terse reference in passing to the word "mouth" remains so suggestive that, in my view, the article's value would be significantly diminished if the term "mouth" were excluded. This anthropomorphic term is sufficiently peculiar and specific that it deserves to be retained.

I can't immediately come up with a Kyoto-related citation to bolster my argument in favor of this very modest edit; but I do remember taking note of the term in more than one 19th century source. Given the amount of attention I've devoted in the past year to Titsingh's Nihon Ōdai Ichiran, it's more than likely that I'm remembering something from that French translation, but I'm somehow almost remembering that I've encountered this usage in more than one other non-English source as well ....

See User talk:Urashimataro#Kamakura's Seven Mouths ....

I do note that this anthropomorphism is mentioned in passing in Seidensticker's Tokyo Rising:

Shinjuku was one of the "mouths," the last of the old post stations on the way into and the first on the way out of Edo.<:ref>Seidensticker, Edward. (1990). Low City, High City: Tokyo from Edo to the Earthquake: How the Shogun's Ancient Capital Became a Great Modern City, 1867-1923, p.51.</ref>

I would hope that this is sufficiently persuasive to convince anyone that this one word -- "mouth" -- needs to be retained in the context of this article on Kamakura. If not, we can re-visit this minor issue when I've re-discovered one or more Kyoto-related citations in which the same term is to be found.--Tenmei (talk) 15:18, 26 May 2008 (UTC)