Talk:Kaliningrad Oblast

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Old talk (completed in 2004) archived here

Old talk (completed in January of 2006) archived here

As the talk page was longer than 30 kilobytes (thus longer than preferable) and recently there has been no active discussions, I archived the old talk page. Kaiser 747 09:55, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

By the way, when I was archivating the talk page a few days ago I have noticed that there were several unanswered questions regarding the Kleinlitauen. I am interested in East Prussia (and in general in German communities that exist or existed outside the borders of modern Germany) and have read much about the history and demography of the area, hence I will answer those questions and add some references to the article.

Firstly, it was asked when did Lithuanians came to this area. The answer to this question is not that simple. The area had been inhabitted by Western Balts and Eastern Balts by the time of Teutonic arrival. The Western Baltic tribes in the area eventually consolidated into the Baltic Prussian nation, (which assimilated into Germans by late medieval), while the Eastern Baltic tribes consolidated into a part of the Lithuanian nation. The major lands of Eastern Balts were Nadruva (Nadrava, Nadrowia), Skalva (Scalew, Scalowia, Schalven, Schalauen) and Pilsotas (terra Pilsaten; the first two were in the eastern part of modern Kaliningrad Oblast, while Pilsotas was in what was later known as Memelland). Hennenberger, Hartknoch and other scholars used to believe that Nadruva and Skalva were inhabitted by Lithuanians (sources: Caspar Hennenberger, Erklärung der Preussischen grösseren Landtaffel, Königsberg, 1575. Chr. Hartknoch, Alt- und Neues Preussische Historien, Frankfurt, 1684). Some other reasearchers (for example, Mortensen, Toeppen (source: M. Toeppen, Historische-comparative Geographie von Preußen, Gotha, 1958, p. 34.) believes that these lands were closer to the Baltic Prussians than Lithuanians, and that these territories lituanized later, after the demise of Prussian nation. Both views are supported until these days, however now the belief that Nadruva and Skalva were culturally and ethnically inbetween Lithuanains and Prussians is most probable.

This has been well researched by the German historians and ethnographers. The exact territories inhabitted by Prussians and proto-Lithuanians at the prehistoric times can be traced based on placenames and hydronims (example – the common endings of German town names “kehmen”, “kallen” and “uppen” indicates the previous Lithuanian presence, as they are derrived from Lithuanian language words meaning courtyard, hill and river; while endings “keim”, “garben” and “appen” indicates Prussian presence, as they are derived from Old Prussian language words meaning the same). Major research in this area was done by Bezzenberger, who estimated that approximate boundary between the two groups to run along Kirschnakeim, Ripkeim, Kuthkeim, Starkeim, Koskeim, Silzkeim, Windkeim, Salpkeim, Redigkeimen and Labkeim (source: A. Bezzenberger, Die litauisch-preubische Grenze.- Altpreußische Monatsschrift, XIX–XX, 1882–1883 ), thus more than half of modern Kaliningrad Oblast was inhabitted by proto-Lithuanians, and less the remaining part mostly by Prussians by the time the Teutonic Order came to the area. This assumption over the area was and is as well supported by other researchers – among ones more known, Lohmeyer and Trautmann (sources: K. Lohmeyer, Geschichte von Ost- und Westpreußen, Gotha, 1908; R. Trautmann, Die Altpreußischen Sprachdenkmaler,Göttingen, 1909.). Of course, only the western and southern boundaries are explained here – eastern and northern boundaries naturally went along the German-Lithuanian (and since the partitions of Poland – German-Russian) border, beyond which Lithuania-proper started.

As well, researches about the extent of Lithuanian-speaking population can be done based on the extent of the area where the Lithuanian language was used in churches, and, for the modern times, censuses.

The term Lithuania Minor (as Kleinlittaw) itself was first used to describe the Lithuanian inhabitted area in a written source in Prussian Chronicle by Simon Grunau that was written from 1517 to 1526. Later other chronicle writers started to use this term as well (example – L. David), and the first maps with the territory marked as Lithuania Minor were published in the 18th century (example – map by Guessefeld dating from 1795).

As for Lithuanian actual control of the area, indeed eastern parts of modern Kaliningrad Oblast were once controlled by the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, but that was centuries ago – the territories were lost to the Teutonic Order State by king Mindaugas in year 1253. The term Lithuania Minor was therefore used because of the ethnicity of local population not because the area was once ruled by Lithuania.

Over the time, the extent of Lithuania Minor did decrease, especially in the 18th and 19th centuries, when improving transportation and urbanization led many Germans to move into the cities in lands inhabitted by Lithuanians, many Lithuanians moved out, there were assimilation processes going on as there was no national revival and German language of course provided more oppurtunities in East Prussia. By the time of World War 1, Lithuanians still made a majority in Memelland (of 50.8% in whole region (Germans made up 43.8%) according to the census of 1923). But elsewhere Lithuanian language majority areas were primarilly concentrated no more than 30-40 kilometers south of the Memel river (Neman, Nemunas); around Tilsit, Ragnit and other nearby towns, and in all places this majority was relatively fragile.

Another question is did the Lithuanians of Lithuania Minor actually considered themselves as a nation. Indeed, during the cultural revival the Lithuanian identity was promoted (example: the works of Donelaitis (published later as a single novel ‘’Metai’’, which was as well translated into German later)) supported the identity of Lithuanian peasants by promoting the idea that Lithuanian language and culture and the peasant way of life is not any worse than that of the German landlords. They used word “lietuvininkas” to describe themselves which was at the time synonymous to “lietuvis” used by the Lithuanians in Lithuania proper (in first chronicles derivations from both words appears as descriptions Lithuanians). The 1918 Act of Tilsit signed by some most prominent figures of the area asked that Lithuania Minor would be united with Lithuania-proper and during the early 20th century this was the goal of many Lithuanians from the area. However, it is also worth of noting that when the Memelland was incorporated to Lithuania in 1923 and a census was carried, some of the local Lithuanians (I don’t have the particular information now, therefore I cannot say the exact percentage, but maybe it would be possible to check) signed their ethnicity as “Klaipedians” rather than Lithuanians. This means that some people of Lithuania Minor considered themselves to be different from Lithuanians despite of speaking the same language – after all, they had different religion, and as for example Serb-Croat-Bosniak relations proves, religion indeed is sometimes the major criteria for defining nation, and the economical difference between the relatively backwards Lithuania-proper and richer economically (and as well culturally) Memelland as well played a role here. Although Lithuanians of Kleinlitauen were always considered to be part of the same nation by the German ethnographers already mentioned in this article, I have no sources for now on when exactly the ideas for unification with Lithuania-proper spread across the Kleinlitauen - I assume it might have been in 19th century, when national revival happened in Lithuania-proper as well. But here I cannot assure it by 100%.

I hope this helps. Kaiser 747 10:57, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

In the elections in Memelland from 1925 to 1938, over 75% voted for German parties, including Lithuanians who obviously disliked the Lithuanian rule. --Matthead 02:13, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Not quite right. I will reply at your talk page as this issue does not concern Kaliningrad Oblast. Kaiser 747 07:06, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Merger

See Talk:Kaliningrad

[edit] Size (landmass)

The article is not clear on the size of the landmass of the oblast. This ought to be stated either near the very top of the article, or else at the very least under the 'Geography' heading. - Mauco 12:34, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Added. Thanks for spotting this.—Ëzhiki (ërinacëus amurënsis) • (yo?); 14:23, 5 May 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Minority schools

In my view, the passage "During the time of the Soviet Union, usage of the Russian language was heavily promoted. There were no schools that taught in German, Lithuanian, or other languages, and few cultural activities for minorities." is illogical, because it is clear from the article that native Germans and Lithuanians left in 1945. So, there was no reason to promote the Russian language - everybdy already spoke Russian. There were no minorities that could possibly be taught in German or Lithuanian.

Interestingly, according to "Demographics" "Almost none of the pre-World War 2 Lithuanian population (Lietuvininks) or German population remains in the Kaliningrad Oblast.". In my view, someone here wants to "have his cake and eat it.". He should say either these people remained, or they did not. I think they did not, judging from the rest of the article. I am leaving the rest of that paragraph more or less at it was, although as far as growing interest for Lithuanian culture and language is concerned, it is completely unsourced. User_talk:Pan_Gerwazy--pgp 21:52, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I cannot believe that 100% of the Germanic population left in 1945, although very likely those that didn't leave became Russified very quickly to avoid discrimination ( and the Communist party would deny they existed in any case ). In addition more Germanic refugees might have arrived in Karlingrad for one reason or another soon after the war. The Russian persecution of ethnic minorities, particularly distrusted ones, is well documented.

The 'growing interest for Lithuanian culture and language is concerned' might be POV of the author or self interest of the inhabitants : the gap in living standards between Lithunian and kalingrad is large and getting larger. David J. James

[edit] Links

Some of the links were clearly POV. Two of them were unaccessible. Those two and another one, a treatise from 1992 purporting to prove that Kaliningrad was, is and will ever be Lithuanian, were deleted before. The Pravda article was old and gave no information - except the fact that some Russians in defence against the ludicrous claim above are now pointing out that if Lithuania claims it was never part of the Soviet Union, it should give up the parts that it was given during those years. Well, since the Lithuanian link was gone, no reason to keep that one. An interesting thought of course, but it really belongs in the article (and in the Memelland article), as this article is too Lithuanian-sided as it stands.

The Master's thesis by Sergey Naumkin: I read it and I wonder where this author got his history lessons. He thinks Vyborg was annexed by Russia when Finland became a part of the Russian empire. In fact it is just the other way around: before 1809, Vyborg was Russian, and only then was it added to Finland. With that caveat, let us leave it here: interesting as far as the economic issue is concerned.--[User_talk:Pan_Gerwazy | Pan Gerwazy] 23:15, 28 June 2006 (UTC).

I' ve got your point on Vyborg history. Thesis revised. Can not put it into e-library, as resource is dead, therefore changed a link.(Sergey Naumkin), 30.01.2007

What do you mean by POV'd?
Link representing local toponyms in German and Lithuanian is historically worth, anyway if someone would be interested, he'd find it anyway, for example on lt.wikipedia.org page.
Altough Lietivininks were gone, there was notable immigration from Lithuania (and other Sovet Republics), because of mass deportations, so notable minoireeis formed again, especialy in Sovetsk and Neman. Kaliningrad Oblast was a best place to hide, and some of those immigrants left here. So it does not correlate with lietuvininks.
Link about legal status of oblast POV'ed? When American lawyer explains the situation? There are no claims of Lithuanian government to this place. Anyway, gone means gone.
Museum link, well I have to agree - it's not at the right place.
Russian link - might be as a responce to "Lithuanina claims", that never were told, anyway it's place should be somewhere at discussions page.
Naumkin - is absolute nonsence, altough smoewhy left in place.--Lokyz 23:56, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
And again, you are trying to have your cake and eat it: if the Lithuanians went to Kaliningrad Oblast to HIDE, how could they have shown up in the statistics - and how could they have asked for schools for their children? Most Georgians in Moscow will never ask for Georgian schools for their children. The percentages quoted here (1.9 and 0.8) are probably higher than the percentages in Soviet Union times, so my question now becomes: since in Moscow the percentage of a number of ethnic minorities is higher than that, are you going to claim now that there should be special schools there teaching Tatar, Chechen and Irish Gaelic? (leaving out Ukrainian, because I know there is at least one private Ukrainian school in Moscow)
The link about the legal status was POV in 1992 (primarily because it denies the new unified Germany the right to concede the territory to Russia), and if it was not, it definitely is now. "Gone means gone" is nonsense, because Lithuania never had it. Except a small part of it, and only ethnically (not going into the argument as to whether Lithuanians ever had a majority in Lithuania Minor).
I agree that the Naummkin thesis contains errors. I pointed out an enormous one. But it does not raise a lot of legal points - so basically on that level it is not as economic with the truth as the American lawyer's text.--Pan Gerwazy 08:46, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Well in hiding they never hid theyr nationality:) It's just in USSR there was quite a mess, and Kaliningrad oblast was a place where imigrated lots of people from lots of locations and with quite differnet past - you probaly know term fishe hides in the dark water. FYI that teritory was often called sixteenth republic. And another one thing - Stalin died 1953, after that repressions stopped. That was the time, when people began to ask for national schools. 1953-1991 quite a long period without possibility to learn in mothers language, don't you think?
Not only do I now have to believe that it was relatively easy to stay in Kaliningrad after 1946, and that it was easy to go and settle there afterwards (Still remember my mother saying "going to the moon will be easier than going to Kaliningrad" - it was a forbidden area, Sperrgebiet!) but I must also believe that after 1953 people who had come from Lithuania and pretended to be Russian, could now suddenly claim that they were Lithuanian and claim schools for their children. No, I do not believe that Stalin would have allowed anybody who may become a liability into such a sensitive area. So, was it really so easy in Soviet times to change your nationality? I am sure that many of these now 18,000 Lithuanians in the oblast do not speak Lithuanian at home: because they only kept this Lithuanian nationality as a sort of insurance, because their spouse speaks Russian ... You do not answer the argument about Tatars and Chechens in Moscow. Do not tell me Lithuanians in Kaliningrad are a special case because a part of Lithuania used to be Lithuanian-speaking. Since most of the Lithuanians do not live in Kleinlitauen, it is like Dutch and Flemish immigrants in Paris asking for Dutch schools because most of the département du Nord was Dutch-speaking until 1930. But the problem can be solved easily. Quote a non-Lithuanian source about Lithuanians asking for schools in their language between 1953 and 1991. Quote a non-Lithuanian source about people in the oblast being really more interested in the old Lithuanian culture of the place (like more newspapers in the Lithuanian language being sold now - people going to museums to see Lithauanian artifacts ... no, not increased sales of Lithuanian dictionaries and grammar books - because those have been increasing for every foreign language everywhere in Russia). The reason why I say non-Lithuanian: to come back to Paris, I know that many Flemish and Dutch nationalists claim that there is now in France "renewed interest in the Dutch language and culture". Believe me, it is not true.--Pan Gerwazy 14:25, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
You may believe whatewer you want. Another one thing, that noone asked for the schools - just, well, at this part of the world during USSR times there was utterly stupid to ask certian questions. Trust me on this. As for nationality changes - change to Russian was not just allowed, it was encouraged by any means. One big internationl family, prefearable all speaking Russian.
As for tatars in Moscow I don't have any slightest idea.
As for special. I did not tell lithuanians are special. The same right to have schools in theyr own language were diened Ukrainians, Belarussians and many other minorities. So nothing special. It was common practice. If you do not like mention of Lithuanians, change it to minorities, it would be more precise. Just don't deny it as a whole.
What do you mean by sensitive area? Didn't understand that. When it was sensitive? As Stalin ruled half of a Europe or now and was thinkin rto offere itt o LSSR for reasns to keep it, just it proved to be unnecessary. Or now, when there is 25 more time armed forces than i Lithuania, and it feels very insecure?
About a spouse, well. it's your belief, based on no facts (gimme at least one example that you know about?). Now it might be insurance, 20 years ago it was not. But now noone bans language or schools, and then they were just untinkable. As for Kleinlitauen - we do ot speak about it. Forget it. It is history. Ceaded. Just let us remember, don't bash lietuvininks out of history as a "nationalistic hysteria".--Lokyz 21:17, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
As for "Gone means gone" - it was said about that link, that you removed:)) If in your opinion it is nonsence, you migt put it back:)
Sorry for this misunderstanding. I really believed that you meant "Kaliningrad is gone now".--Pan Gerwazy 14:25, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
I believe, you have predetermined POV:)--Lokyz 21:17, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Strange, American POV? Are you the one that hates "pendosy"? Another thing: that text it is put in Lithuanian site does not mean that it is official Lithuanian position. It's a awyer POV, not national. There is no talk about Lituanian majority:) Somewhat you're fighting a war against shadows.
Sorry, do not understand pendosy. What language is it from? And this viewpoint says basically give it to the Lithuaninas, let the Germans come back (to invest) and throw the damn commie Russkis out. Americans like simple solutions.--Pan Gerwazy 14:25, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Well, then leave both - or remove both. I do not understand your point - you say, that both are biased and flawed, and remove one and leave another.--Lokyz 09:14, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
While POV is strictly to be avoided in the article itself, there might be lower standards in links, where biased views IMHO are totally acceptable and offer a diverse plus of information. Have a look at Royal Dutch Shell, I know what to expect from their official website, I can imagine what to expect from Christian Aid Report "Shell In The Niger Delta". POV vs. POV is the basis of our political culture, hindering access to POV is not. ----Gf1961 11:18, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Then American lawyer link sould be reintroduced also, don't you think?--Lokyz 12:16, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
I wouldn't object. Could be declared as one-sided view, however. --Gf1961 12:42, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
The German thesis is not POV, I think, but it contains serious historical errors. People who come here to know more about the history of Kaliningrad and get confused by all this Lithuanian stuff (which is fact dominating the article now), will go to the links and may get the wrong idea. The American lawyer - well lawyers will say and write anything they get paid for. And it is old, defends a view point that is completely obsolete, Lokyz more or less conceded that. My advice: people who live in glass houses (Memelland, and perhaps even Vilnius) should not throw stones. If THAT link of his goes back in, then there should be a chapter here about how Germany rightfully conceded Kaliningrad to Russia and that if there is a juridicial vacuum here, it concerns Memelland.--Pan Gerwazy 14:31, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Huh? Sounds like threat:) Just one question? wqho is throwing stones to what direction? Is an article about historical names of cities stone throwing? Without any mention, about any means to "fight for it", "get it back". What IS stone throwing, is claim that those people who lived there did not exist, and do not have right to have graves. And only one thing proposed - is shut up, or be annexed and/or teritorialy disintgrated.
As for Lithuaian POV domination, well, maye you should split this article into Kalingrad oblast and history of East Prussia, and all POV'ed problems will be solved at once. But i do have little hope, that it would ever happen. Because a lot of people already think these are "iskonno ruskie zemli uzhe mnogije tysiacheletija". So history is constantly being rewritten.--Lokyz 21:17, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Split up? I am sorry, but there is already an article on Lithuania Minor, on East Prussia (with history!), on Prussian People, on Lietuvininks, on Origins of Prussia, ... all places where you can put your stuff. (And "South of the border" you have Masuria, Warmia, Masurian Lakes, Warmian-Masurian Voivodship ...) What else can be done to make sure that this article here is primarily about the Russian place? As for tysiacheletija, sorry, but I know that stupidity is universal. But people can learn. Russians coming to this page won't learn anything, however.--Pan Gerwazy 11:15, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
My stuff? I didn't put stuff here, and I do not think I want to remove anything.
As for pirmaly on Russian space - i'd suggest againt to split article int two different parts - Kaliningrad oblast history (because it is higly controversial) and Kaliningrad oblast as an adminsitrative part of Russian federation - this one would have no mentions of lietuvninks or "lithuanian agressive politics and attempts to grab Klainingrad form Russia".
History section is important not only because of extinct lietuvininks, but especialy because mass murderings of germans during WWII, that Russia does not want to admit to happen. --Lokyz 12:10, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge pre-1945 history to East Prussia, and leave note?

This article is absolutely dominated by discussion of pre-1945 history (perhaps 2/3 of the content), and the bits about the place today (people, economy, politics, disputes, climate, etc, etc) are tiny, and need to be expanded. Should I add tags? Jd2718 19:42, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

I would say merge the majority of pre-1945 history into East Prussia (if it isn't there already) and remove it from here. This article should focus on the Russian administrative unit, not on earlier history. Olessi 17:38, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Second that. I wouldn't remove all of pre-1945 history, though. I brief summary (one or two paragraphs) and a link to the main article should, however, suffice. Other than that, support.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 18:48, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Agreed. --Der Eberswalder 01:17, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Map

The map was to small und not good visible on Laptops. I replaced it and had to change the text, first word must be followed by ]] and last word must start with [[ (because the template wants it so). As long as there is no good other map I think this is the best solution. --Der Eberswalder 01:17, 21 January 2007 (UTC) You can try this map (Sergey Naumkin, 30.01.2007)

[edit] Prussia

This territory was once known as Prussia before taken by the Soviet Union and there are virtually no germans there after they were expelled. After the fall of the Soviet Union, Prussia was not freed as a sattelite country because there were no Germans in their ancestrial land to claim it to be freed. Many German People wish to go back to Prussia and there are several groups wanting hostile takover of the area which includes: neo-nazis, Russian Seperatist, Muslim Extremeist, Ancestral Prussians, and other supporters, the move is backed by the west. The Russian government has considered changing the name of the city Kaliningrad back to Kronigsberg. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Theerasofwar (talk • contribs) 10:56, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Neo-nazis and Muslim Extremists !! backed by the west !! Never heard anything more absurd.(HerkusMonte (talk) 15:33, 28 February 2008 (UTC))

[edit] Legal Status

It looks like the legal status of the territory is not very firm. A paragraph should state what the situation is. Two good sources [1], [2]--Stor stark7 Speak 23:32, 30 April 2008 (UTC)