Talk:Kali (demon)

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Good article Kali (demon) was a nominee for Philosophy and religion good article, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
March 27, 2008 Good article nominee Not listed
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[edit] Kali Demon's "Appearance"

A person from the ip address 70.53.92.79 added this sentence to the Kali (Demon) page:

"Another manifestation is that of a bloated, ugly woman, with hair like that of a horse, with terible stench and powers to kill through touch and utterance of certain words of power."

I think this person might be confusing Kali-Demon with an odd avatar of the Kali-Goddess. Then again, I might be wrong. If someone knows more about this alternate Kali appearance please write me!!! (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 04:22, 20 July 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Mix up

I originally got the Sanskrit name for Kali-demon off of the Kaliyuga page. It turns out that the Sanskrit name on the Kali-Goddess page has the same spelling. This is wrong. From my understanding, these names have different sounding a's. So this means, someone messed up on the Kaliyuga page. It should be the Kali of the Kali-Demon, not the goddess. Here, check this out:

"Q. I have begun reading your edition of Bhagavad-gita. It's wonderful, as I knew it would be. I came across a footnote that I have a question about. When describing Kali you say she is "the personification of evil who presides over the present age--Kali-yuga." I wasn't aware of this aspect of Mother Kali--that she personifies evil. My understanding has been that she is an aspect of the Divine Mother who was born out of the third eye of Mother Durga to kill demonic forces that none of the other gods could defeat. I was also under the impression that her purpose is one of love (maybe you could call it the ultimate "tough love") and that she slaughters the false ego and enables one to find one's true nature so that one may find complete love of God. Please elaborate on your knowledge of Kali Ma.
A. Kali spelled with a long 'a' and Kali with a short 'a' are different Sanskrit words indicating different persons. Kali with a long 'a' is the Goddess wife of Siva, who, as you say, is often worshipped with a view to dissolve one's material ego. Kali spelled with a short 'a' is the personification of the age of quarrel (Kali-yuga). Duryodhana of Mahabharata and Bhagavad-gita fame is considered to be a partial incarnation of Kali, the personification of this degraded age, not Goddess Kali." - ([Bhagavad-gita Leads to Vrndavana)

Hopefully this has cleared things up a bit. So now all I need is the "correct" Sanskrit term for the Kali-Demon.(!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 04:55, 20 July 2006 (UTC))

Never mind, my bad. कलि and काली. I can't tell which one has the "long" and "Short" a. Maybe its the one with the shortest loop. I can't read sanskrit. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 05:51, 20 July 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Why is wikipedia being used to disseminate propaganda against Hindus?

This article on Kalki has been perverted by someone who wants to use it as a commentary on Hindu politics. There is no reasoning provided, only some citations to a book. And the contributor makes claims of "anti-Muslim" and "Hindutva propaganda". This, in an article dealing with a figure from Hindu mythology! Wikipedia has apparently become a public lavatory where anyone with extreme ideological views can come to relieve themselves, as long as they can provide citations to back up their pet prejudices.

Please refrain from deleting large chunks of cited material from the page. You opinion on the matter is duely noted. I am the "someone" who wrote the article. I assure you that I have no agenda or prejudices against Hindus. Kali was used in the pamphlets to denote Muslims. Please tell me how it reflects badly on Hindus? --Ghostexorcist (talk) 14:28, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
This section needs to be deleted or properly edited. Just because material is cited does that mean it is factual? Sure, it is in a book somewhere but the material has to be objective? Would you cite Hitler's Mein Kampf on the article on Wikipedia commenting on Jews as an authoritative source? I hope you see my point. Using loaded terminology like "Hindutva propoganda" and "anti-Muslim" shows the ideological predisposition of the author of the section. You may or may not subscribe to the ideology yourself, but at the very least you are complicit in regurgitating and disseminating it. I challenge you to prove that the organizations that you mention are "Hindutva" organizations, whatever that may mean. You depict pictures in the article dating from 1890 and try to link the pamphlets to various riots that may or may not have happened during that time period. You should know that even the term "Hindutva", was not coined at that time. So it is absurd to claim that these groups could be spreading "Hindutva" propaganda at that time.
Also, for someone who wants to contribute to articles on Hinduism you seem amazingly ignorant of the fact that Hindus in general are against cow slaughter. For example just last week there was an issue in Britain where members of the Hare Krishna religion protested vociferously against cow slaughter. Does that make them a part of a "Hindutva" organization? They did it simply because they are Hindus. (Another expression of your "knowledge" of Hinduism is the term 'darmaraj' that you have used in your section. There is nothing of kind in Hinduism. It is 'Dharma-raj' since there is nothing like 'darma' in Hinduism.)
What you described was a campaign against cow slaughter that depicted the slaughterer of cows as Kali. This was a campaign against cow slaughter. How does opposition by Hindus to Muslims slaughtering cows make one anti-Muslim? For example Muslims consider the Quran sacred and if Hindus were to practice burning the Quran and Muslims were to oppose it, would that make them anti-Hindu? Does making a caricature of Muhammad as terrorist make one anti-Muslim? For Muhammad is indeed the prototype and the archetype of all Muslims. Does banning head scarves make a country anti-Muslim? If so both France and Turkey are anti-Muslim nations. In all cases the opposition is to an ideology or certain aspects of it, in this respect Islam, and not to its adherents. Furthermore, you choose to ignore the obvious truth here that the cow-slaughter campaign was targeted at all beef-eaters not just Muslims. Your own translations prove that.
Finally please tell me how is it even material to the discussion here. This is a vast subject and there is a lot of material that can add to the credibility of this page. And you choose to post this insignificant drivel that adds nothing of value but is indeed of questionable origin and intent. It is disgusting to note that even articles on Hinduism are being used to portray Hindus in a poor light. This is exactly the kind of poor content that makes Wikipedia such a questionable source for valid information. Therefore, for the sake of the integrity of Wikipedia itself you need to do us all a favor and delete this section, or, at the very least, reword it to make it less shrill and more factual. Remove references to Hindutva and anti-Muslim etc. And shorten it down to make it more accurately representative of its true place in the scheme of things. —Preceding unsigned comment added by User:Aurovir (talk • contribs)
Again, your opinion is duly noted. If you go back through the edit history, you will see I am not the person who added the "Hindutva" link to the page. Please refrain from uncivil remarks like "ignorant". (see WP:Civil) And please sign your comments with four tildes. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 15:35, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
Duly noted where? Let's cut through the doublespeak, shall we? What you really mean is duly ignored and dismissed as opinion. Also, there is nothing offensive about the fact that you seem ignorant about basic facts. It just means "you do not know" and does not indicate any kind of inherent deficiency on your part, mental or moral. If you are genuinely interested in the subject you will take this as an opportunity to learn. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aurovir (talk • contribs) 15:53, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
It's duly noted on the current talk page. Again, please see WP:Civil. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 15:57, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
My apologies. I see that you have edited the section.
No problem. Happy to help. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 16:01, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] GA Review

Well, I really appreciate the hard work which has been put into this article. But unfortunately I'm afraid that I'm not going to be able to list it as a GA.

  • Lead

The lead just mentions Kali in different epics like Vishnu Purana, Kalki Purana and Mahabharata. It doesn't summarize the entire article. As a rule of thumb, I would like to have a detail from each and every section. But there is no mention of Kali's life, death, significance in the lead.

  • Description

This section describes Kali but it doesn't have an Image here. The section needs an Image especially so that people can visualize.

  • Life

This section looks good from above. But when you read the section, it looks like a story. Example:

The Brahmin Pravara was given a magical ointment that allowed him to fly when he spread it on the bottoms of his feet. But when he flew to the Himalayas and walked around on the mountain snow, the ointment was washed away keeping him from returning home to his wife. During his time on the mountain, the Apsara Varuthini fell madly in love with him and begged the Brahmin to stay with her forever. But he rejected her advances because his guru had told him to never lust after another man’s wife. He prayed to Agni who returned him home safely.

According to Markandeya Purana, The Brahmin Pravara was given a magical ointment that allowed him to fly. But when he flew to the Himalayas, the ointment was washed away keeping him from returning home to his wife. During this time, the Apsara Varuthini fell madly in love with him and begged the Brahmin to stay with her forever. But eventually, he rejected her. He prayed to Agni who returned him home safely.

This list is not exhaustive, I have just tried to give an idea of the sorts of issues that need to be addressed before a successful GA nomination.

  • Death

Kali dies one-third of the way through the Kalki Purana->>what do you mean by dies. How is it encyclopedic.
The stench of his blood billowed out and filled the atmosphere with a foul odor.--->peacock terms.
The author comments, "Unlike most battles between gods and demons, however, this apparent victory is immediately undercut, for Kali escapes to reappear in 'another age'—in our age, or the next Kali Age."-->>Who is this expert author
Since he had the power to manifest himself in human form on earth, he was able to forsake his dying corporal form to escape in spirit.--->>Why do you require tems such as dying corporal here. Can't you make it simple.


GA review (see here for criteria)
  1. It is reasonably well written:
    Fail...needs a little bit more work
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable:
    Pass looks fine it seems.
  3. It is broad in its coverage:
    Pass
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy:
    Fail..It may invite POV problems in Religion and Politics
  5. It is stable:
    Pass That's good too.
  6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate:
    Fail,,description section doesn't have an Image
  7. Overall:
    Fail

Good luck, and I hope to see this article back at GAN very soon....KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 14:56, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Reply
Answer to 4: IMO, The section is Neutral. The section only illustrates how Kali was considered as a representation of beef-eating Muslim community, by some Hindus. References are provided. Please list sentences, which are non-neutral so they can be reworded.
Some Hindus considered Kali’s presence in the picture to be a representation of the Muslim community. When one of the versions of these pamphlets came into the possession of a state official in 1893, he commented that the image “contained a representation of a Musalman [Muslim] advancing to slay the cow ...”

I suggest you to remove this sentence. Maybe some Hindus may like this sentence. But Muslims will definitely not like this senetence. How can you compare a community with a demon. Everything for which References are provided need not be posted on Wikipedia. It should be carefully analyzed first. The article should appease both the Hindus and the Muslims and not the Hindus alone. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 17:08, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

The point is one likes it or not, it is a fact that the demon Kali was compared to Muslims, who eat cows - prohibited in Hinduism, on the background of Hindu-Muslim riots. It is not appeassing anyone, but stating the facts.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 05:47, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
Answer to 6:"The presence of images is not, in itself, a requirement for Good articles. However, if images (including other media) with acceptable copyright status are appropriate and readily available, then they should be used." Image of Kali present in infobox too.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 14:09, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
I am the original author of the page. I kind of figured that it wasn't ready for GA status since the lead was not long enough and a few of the sections needed to be rewritten for flow, but I have to agree with Redtigerxyz on some points: #4 - The section gives both the viewpoint of the Bristish ruling class, the hindus, and the muslims. I do not see how it is POV. It has every viewpoint covered. The plain and simple fact is that Kali was believed to be a representation of Muslims. #6 - The infobox pic hovers just above the description section, so there should be no problem.
  • Well I found it a bit difficult to visualize. I had to read the first sentence The Kalki Purana describes him as a huge being, the color of “soot,” with a large tongue, and a terrible stench. From his birth, he carried an Upaasthi (worship) bone. Go up again and check the image, come down again read the other sentences and go up again. If you just put an Image of Kali in the decription, then I think it will make a difference.KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 17:20, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Now for other points: "dying corporeal" - I don't see any problem with this wording. Corporeal just means "body". In the Mahabharata and Kalki Purana, he only has a spiritual form (no physical body), before he either possesses someone who manifests a body of his own. "Death" - His physical body dies, how much simpler can I get? "billowed" and "foul" - The english copy of the Kalki Purana that I used said that a black cloud came forth from his wounds and had a horrible smell. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 16:45, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Even if we forget the Images and POV for a second, the fact cannot be denied that the prose is not of a very good quality. It looks like a essay or a story. Kali dies one-third of the way through the Kalki Purana looks as if this sentence is a continuation of a story.KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 17:27, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
The kalki purana does not end upon Kali's death. It continues for some time as Kalki faces other enemies, finally brings about Satya Yuga, and divides the earth among his generals before transforming back into Vishnu and returning to heaven. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 17:36, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Removed this

"The authors of the book Science in Culture reason the child looked like the Brahmin because Varuthini believed Kali was indeed Pravara. They give one example from the Jewish “Zoharic Midrash” that tells the story of how the son of Jacob was born to one woman, but actually belonged to the woman he believed he was making love to. They comment, the “Sanskrit phrase, ‘from his semen and from her thinking,’ closely parallels the Hebrew phrase, ‘his semen followed his thought’—though with the essential difference that, here, his semen follows her thought.”[1]" as a WP:FRINGE theory and WP:UNDUE to the reason behind the child looking like Pravara, not indirectly connected to kali.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 16:19, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Although, I think it's a good piece of material, I can see why it should be removed because it's not directly related to Kali. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 16:29, 28 March 2008 (UTC)