Talk:Kagami mochi

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Contents

[edit] Google images of three-mochi kagami mochi

Note to User:Dforest: Can you be more specific? The first four pages of Google images (search term:　鏡餅) don't have a single example of kagami mochi with three discs. Yesterday I did a careful search on this, and no Japanese page on kagami mochi mentions three discs. The Japanese wikipedia entry doesn't mention them either. If you have seen them, could you take a photo for evidence? --DannyWilde 01:51, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

I would take a photo, but naturally I would have to wait until the end of the year. ;) Here's the Google images search I was referring to: [1]
Thanks for your edits, by the way. --Dforest 02:28, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for your edits too. I looked at the Google search you gave - and I can't find any photos with three, except a strange pink thing which is obviously not a standard "kagami mochi". Read the comments on the page. There are some drawings with three, but they don't provide any evidence. Searching in romaji will most likely get you results like that - better to use the Japanese words in the search, perhaps, since people who draw kagami mochi pictures from memory might not realise there are two discs. Now, as I noted on the page, the two mochis symbolize the going and coming years - there are usually not three years going and coming. I've carefully researched this, and found no evidence at all of three mochi discs being used on standard kagami mochi. If you can point me to real evidence of a three disc kagami mochi, fine - otherwise, please don't keep changing this page to say "three", since it is wrong. --DannyWilde 02:53, 30 September 2005 (UTC)


If you're looking for a photo of kagamimochi, there's one here. Third from the bottom. The middle disk is pink in this photo. "Disk" seems a bit more like a hockey puck; these are blobby. Imagine a ball that droops into a sort of disk. Sort of. Fg2 07:02, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Are you sure the top layer is mochi? The photo isn't very big, but it definitely looks like two mochi layers with discs of something else on top. The caption also says "two layers of mochi": 同じく紅白二段の餅. BTW this is a special kind of kagami-mochi it says, as well. Might be worth mentioning in the article. --DannyWilde 09:13, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
Two, according to Iwanami, 「国語辞典」. Fg2 10:34, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure what kind of evidence you're looking for, but here's an excerpt from the Kagoshima visitor's guide [2] on the subject:

Kagamimochi (literally "mirror rice cake") is two or three pieces of round shaped rice cakes decorated with an orange on top. It is an offering to the god at the New year. It is placed in the main room until January 11th . Kagamimochi is taken down on January 11th and eaten. It is called Kagamibiraki (literally "opening the mirror") . Kagamimochi is a good luck charm, so we split it open by hand or a hammer not using a knife.
That is one piece of evidence, but I read lots of articles in Japanese about it, including the Japanese wikipedia one, and they all said two pieces of mochi. I couldn't find three anywhere. --DannyWilde 09:13, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Once again, I have personally seen a fair number of these with three pieces of mochi. --Dforest 08:28, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

I haven't seen a single one. It might be a regional difference I suppose. --DannyWilde 09:13, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

I edited it to read "at least two mochi". Perhaps this is better? Dforest 08:48, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Reference web pages

I'd rather the issue was clarified so that the article was correct. I might be wrong in saying "two pieces", but it's something I have gone well out of my way to check, including looking at about 200 Google images and reading three detailed web pages about kagami mochi in Japanese:

I'm sorry to have put you to this trouble in convincing me, but it's hard for me to think that all these Japanese pages are incorrect, and none of them mentions three layers. --DannyWilde 09:13, 30 September 2005 (UTC)


Hi again--

I have shown you photos, illustrations, and written evidence of the three layer type. It is frustrating to have someone argue 'I haven't seen it so it must not exist.' (not your words, but the impression I get from your comments) I have seen these with my own eyes. I get the feeling that you distrust me, and it perplexes me why you are so adamant about this. I am not about to insert information that I am not sure about. I have also read quite a few articles about this in both English and Japanese. Since you ask for 'very hard evidence', I found these for you. I put considerable effort into researching this, so I hope you will find it satisfactory.

(all emphasis mine)

1 Illustration unambiguously shows 3 mochi.

2 Gishi, a kagami mochi dealer, shows the 3-layer type halfway down the page.

3 A dictionary of Japanese culture

explanation: Offering for toshigami (year's god) settled on "tokonoma" (Japanese alcove) in a new year celebration. It consists to pile up 2 or 3 round rice cakes (lower is bigger) and put a "daidai" (bitter orange) at the top. It comes from a shintoist rite (the mirror is a god's symbol for them) but has been generalized since Muromachi period with an appearance of "tokonoma". On January 11th, it will be cut off into small pieces to be cooked. The ceremony is called "kagami biraki", i.e. "mirror opening".

4 A personal account of Japanese New Year

Mochi, arranged in stacks of two or three round mounds sort of like snowmen, is used as a decoration in temples, shrines, and homes.

5 Mochitsuki : A Japanese Custom

Kagami mochi is made of at least two stacked flatten (sic) balls of mochi and is placed on a small rasised (sic) tray called a "sanbo".

6 (in Japanese)

普通２個重ねるところがほとんど。ほかに、３個重ねたり

7 (in Japanese)

三枚重ねの鏡餅を供え、松や餅花を飾る風習が長く続いているのです。

8 (in Japanese)

洗い米の粉とまぜて、臼で搗いて緑色の大鏡餅三枚重ねを、まず氏神に供えた後、村内の者が分けあって食べる。

9 (in Japanese)

正月の鏡餅として3段重ねの三日月重ねの供え餅を神棚に供える家も残っています。

10 (in Japanese) An interesting theory about the 3-layered type possibly having origins in a Jewish matzo ceremony. (?)

日本の餅のルーツがユダヤのマツォならば、鏡餅が三段である理由も、３つに割るマツォの儀式に由来しているのかもしれない。つまり、鏡餅そのものが三位一体の神を表現している可能性がある。

BTW, I also conferred with a Japanese colleague who is knowledgable about this, and he said it is not so important the number of mochi so long as there are more than one, as you can't very well call a single mochi a kagamimochi.

Regards, Dforest 02:54, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] re: Reference web pages

Hi again--

I have shown you photos, illustrations, and written evidence of the three layer type.

I haven't seen any photos except the pink one, which had a caption specifically saying "this is not typical".--DannyWilde 04:10, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

It is frustrating to have someone argue 'I haven't seen it so it must not exist.' (not your words, but the impression I get from your comments)

When you initially changed the page to say three, I went off and checked it with the web pages listed above. I couldn't find evidence there for it, and so far, I still haven't found any real, solid evidence for them. --DannyWilde 04:10, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
Gishi, which you cited, sells the 3-layer type. What more evidence do you want? --Dforest 17:55, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

I have seen these with my own eyes. I get the feeling that you distrust me, and it perplexes me why you are so adamant about this.

Long experience on the net. If you do a net search for the Portuguese word "obrigado" and the Japanese "arigatou", I'm willing to bet you'll find many pages saying they are related. I've also had this repeated to me in real life. But they aren't. --DannyWilde 04:10, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
For what its worth, I also have long experience on the net. The existence of the three-layer variety is not speculation. --Dforest 03:03, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

I am not about to insert information that I am not sure about. I have also read quite a few articles about this in both English and Japanese. Since you ask for 'very hard evidence', I found these for you. I put considerable effort into researching this, so I hope you will find it satisfactory.

(all emphasis mine)

1 Illustration unambiguously shows 3 mochi.

I have seen the illustrations in the Google images pages already. That is one piece of evidence, but it is rather a weak one. A photo would be much better. --DannyWilde 04:10, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
A photo is no better evidence than an illustration. The validity of the evidence comes from context more than anything else, and this is a page specifically describing kagami mochi. --Dforest 17:55, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

2 Gishi, a kagami mochi dealer, shows the 3-layer type halfway down the page.

It shows three mochi discs on top of one another, but not formed into a kagami mochi. However, we do see below in your quote about Kyoto that this is used in some kinds of decorations. --DannyWilde 04:10, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
The caption says 飾り台座鏡もち, i.e. "decorative pedestal kagami mochi". --Dforest 17:55, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

3 A dictionary of Japanese culture

explanation: Offering for toshigami (year's god) settled on "tokonoma" (Japanese alcove) in a new year celebration. It consists to pile up 2 or 3 round rice cakes (lower is bigger) and put a "daidai" (bitter orange) at the top. It comes from a shintoist rite (the mirror is a god's symbol for them) but has been generalized since Muromachi period with an appearance of "tokonoma". On January 11th, it will be cut off into small pieces to be cooked. The ceremony is called "kagami biraki", i.e. "mirror opening".
This isn't a very convincing page. It says "orange" rather than "daidai", and in the paragraph before the one you quote, it only mentions two layers. --DannyWilde 04:10, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
The paragraph I quoted originally comes from the Japanese dictionary of history and traditions. It says "daidai" (bitter orange). And a daidai is what, if not a bitter orange? --Dforest 17:55, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

4 A personal account of Japanese New Year

Mochi, arranged in stacks of two or three round mounds sort of like snowmen, is used as a decoration in temples, shrines, and homes.
This kind of personal account is not really so convincing; is the person who wrote it an expert on kagami mochi? It would be easy enough for some tourist to make a mistake. --DannyWilde 04:10, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
Elitism. Are you or I an expert on kagami mochi? --Dforest 17:55, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

5 Mochitsuki : A Japanese Custom

Kagami mochi is made of at least two stacked flatten (sic) balls of mochi and is placed on a small rasised (sic) tray called a "sanbo".
Yes, and this also says that a satsuma orange is placed on top, which as I've said is wrong - it is a daidai, not a satsuma. The person who wrote it is clearly not an expert - I don't find evidence from this page convincing. --DannyWilde 04:10, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
The page reads:
A small bitter fruit, typically a satsuma mandrin (sic) orange is placed on top of the rice cakes. The fruit signifies longevity in its name, "daidai" meaning "generation to generation".
This is an accurate description. The terms "Satsuma" and "mandarin orange" are used to refer to the mikan. Mikans are commonly used for kagami mochi in present-day Japan. --Dforest 17:55, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

6 (in Japanese)

普通２個重ねるところがほとんど。ほかに、３個重ねたり
This page consists of random speculations from net people without even real names. The person who wrote that also says "sometimes they have daidai on them". It's asking people to guess why the mochis are layered. This is not a convincing page. --DannyWilde 04:10, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
More elitism. It is true that they sometimes have daidai on them. They often have mikans instead. --Dforest 17:55, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

7 (in Japanese)

三枚重ねの鏡餅を供え、松や餅花を飾る風習が長く続いているのです。
This is the first piece of convincing evidence for three-layered kagami mochi, although it is very clearly a different form of decoration from the normal kind of kagami mochi decoration. --DannyWilde 04:10, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
But the article refers to it as a kagamimochi. --Dforest 17:55, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

8 (in Japanese)

洗い米の粉とまぜて、臼で搗いて緑色の大鏡餅三枚重ねを、まず氏神に供えた後、村内の者が分けあって食べる。
Again, these green things are clearly not anything like a standard kagamimochi, although it might be an interesting addition to the article. --DannyWilde 04:10, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
I am not arguing that the three-layered type is a "standard kagamimochi", only that they are known to exist in Japan. --Dforest 17:55, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

9 (in Japanese)

正月の鏡餅として3段重ねの三日月重ねの供え餅を神棚に供える家も残っています。
This is a limited local variation, related to belief in a particular kami; I don't know if this is a kagami mochi with three overlapping discs: "mikkazuki" means "new moon". I'm not sure what "mikkazuki kasane" means, perhaps "partially overlapping", but again this is surely not the standard kagami mochi, although it might be an interesting addition to the article. --DannyWilde 04:10, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
Sure it's a local variation, but it is certainly a kagamimochi. That it is an offering to a kami reflects kagamimochi's Shinto origins. --Dforest 17:55, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

10 (in Japanese) An interesting theory about the 3-layered type possibly having origins in a Jewish matzo ceremony. (?)

日本の餅のルーツがユダヤのマツォならば、鏡餅が三段である理由も、３つに割るマツォの儀式に由来しているのかもしれない。つまり、鏡餅そのものが三位一体の神を表現している可能性がある。
Even disregarding the above comments, this is not a convincing page at all. The photo has a kagami mochi with an apple on the top of it. The comments about Jews using the matso (spelling?) to represent the body of Christ, who is not even a part of the Jewish religion, strikes me as making the total contents of the page very, very, very much less than convincing. --DannyWilde 04:10, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
Of course this is a bizarre theory; I agree it is unlikely to have merit. I thought it was worthy to note because he argues "The reason there are three-layered kagamimochi..." (in bold) This is evidence that their existence is common knowledge in Japan. Why would he write that if it were not common knowledge that they exist? The author notes that (s)he used an apple because there were no mikans available. Also, Christ was Jewish, and according to The Last Supper article, it is "considered by most scholars likely to have been a Passover seder". --Dforest 17:55, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

BTW, I also conferred with a Japanese colleague who is knowledgable about this, and he said it is not so important the number of mochi so long as there are more than one, as you can't very well call a single mochi a kagamimochi.

Regards, Dforest 02:54, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for your input into this. First of all, after what was obviously a hard search, you found a few pieces of evidence for a few regional variations including a three layered kagami mochi, as above, in Kyoto, the green ones, the overlapping ones, and the photo of the undecorated mochi discs. In contrast to this, I was able to find several authoritative, detailed pages on kagami mochi which do not mention three layered kagami mochis at all. I still have not seen convincing evidence that the standard kagami mochi with a daidai on top can have three layers, and since all the convincing examples you have found are regional variations, it is clearly not correct to state that the standard kagami mochi has "two or three layers" without some qualifications. in order to write an accurate article about it you would need to mention the differences in decorations etc. on the few three layered kagami mochi which exist. If you really believe that three layered kagami mochi are a common variant, I'd suggest leaving the article in its current form until New Years, taking some photos and sending them to me by email, and forcing me to eat my words at that point. Anyway until New Year, which is only three months away, can we please end this discussion for now? I think I know more about kagami mochi than I really wanted to. --DannyWilde 04:10, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

First of all, I would appreciate it if you do not cut into my posts with your replies.

I am not inclined to take pictures to prove to you what I have already shown exists. I'm sorry to be so defensive about this, but I do take considerable offense at your denying what I have seen with my own eyes and shown you clear evidence of.

The Japanese Wikipedia article is hardly authoritative. Look at the history. It is basically a stub, with only minor edits since it was first written. The Gishi website you cited actually sells three-layer kagamimochi.

You profess to be an authority about this, but your 24 Sept edit in the mochi article stated that kagamimochi is not eaten. This is what brought this article to my attention. The kagamibiraki ritual, in which the mochi is broken and eaten, is the climax of the ceremony. And you dismiss other articles because they call the daidai a bitter orange--which it is.

Please let's not continue to argue about this. I would much rather work together here than have a revert war. --Dforest 17:55, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Concerned again about edits

I've just looked at the diff for the recent edits. First, what evidence is there that "daidai" are scarce? It's not a scarce fruit at all as far as I know since lots of people grow them in their gardens. There is one daidai tree near my house. Second, the name "daidai" does indeed mean "generations": I put that on the daidai page, if you'd care to look, and the Japanese wikipedia page will confirm it. The name comes from the fact that the tree stays on the fruit for several years if left to itself. The kanji is just ateji. And anyway, as I've been saying since this discussion started, there is not really any convincing evidence of more than two mochi except "I've seen them", so that edit should not have been made either. --DannyWilde 10:03, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Requested on Japanese page

I have made a request on Japanese wikipedia for clarification. See [6]. --DannyWilde 10:33, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Three-Layered Kagami Mochi

Perhaps this discussion of the difference between two and three layered kagami-mochi on the Tokyo Gas Japanese culture website will put this matter to rest.

Q. お正月の鏡餅は二段重ねだと思っていたら、三つ重ねすることもあると聞きました。どんな時でしょうか。

A. お正月に鏡餅を飾るのは日本の伝統行事の一つです。古くから豊かな実りを祈って供えてきました。鏡餅には歳神が宿るといわれており、鏡開きの日に割って食べることで歳神の力を分けてもらい家族の健康と長寿を願いました。 昔は神棚、仏壇、甲冑、鏡台、農具、井戸、台所など、家のあちこちに飾っていましたが、現在は床の間や棚がほとんどです。飾り方は地方や家々で違いがありますが、二つ重ねるのが一般的です。二つ重ねは陰と陽（月と日）を表しているといわれ「福が重なる」「めでたく年を重ねる」という意味があります。ただし、「井戸や農具は二つ重ねするが、神仏に供える時は三つ重ねする」と飾り分けている地方、また、仏壇は二つ重ねるが、神棚には三つ重ねする地方、その他、台所の中心であるかまどには三つ重ねする“おくど飾り”など、三つ重ねする場合もあるようです。

In sum, the questioner mentions that he is familiar with two-layered kagami mochi but has also heard a three-layered version exists. He asks at what times this is used.

The answer, in brief, mentions the different places kagami mochi can be used as a decoration in the home, and mentions regional and household differences. Although two-layered mochi is most common (representing dualities like yin-yang/sun and moon, and the "piling up" of good fortune etc.), the three-layered type is also used in some locales, for specific areas of the house. For example, a local saying has it that the two-layered version is used by wells and farm tools, while the three-layered version goes on the butsudan (Buddhist altar). In another locale, the butsudan gets the two-layered version, while the kamidana (Shinto altar) gets the three-layered version. Another local version has it that the three-layered kagami mochi goes in the center of the kitchen.

At any rate, there are certainly three-layered kagami mochi. This is beyond question.

Thanks for the input. Dforest has already shown that three-layered kagami mochi exist in some regional variations (see above). The kitchen one sounds the same as Dforest's reference to the three-layered kagami mochi in Kyoto. Apparently Dforest lives in Osaka, and so it may be more common there. It isn't particularly clear that three layers is a standard variation. The current wording "sometimes three" is a little vague, perhaps you'd like to add the above translation to the article. --DannyWilde 00:24, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
So, we agree that the "regional variations" exist. Now I suppose the issue is whether the three-layer type is commonly known in Japan. So today I did an informal survey among my Japanese co-workers. I asked six people (mostly in their 50s or older) if they had ever seen the three-layer version. Out of them, four gave a definite yes. One of them said that in his house he does the three-layer version. He also told me that in the old days four and five layers used to be common. Another said that that he had seen the three-layer type at his grandfather's house.
Of the two who said no, one person couldn't recall seeing it in particular but earlier made the comment (in paraphrase) "It is not so important the number so long as there are more than one." (I asked him again because he hadn't given a definite answer before.) The other no was the youngest person I asked, a lady in her early twenties. I could have asked more people but frankly I didn't want to bother them with silly questions. By the way, "standard variation" is an oxymoron. --Dforest 11:42, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for taking such a lot of time to check this. As noted from the very beginning of this discussion, I suggested it might be a regional variation. Perhaps you could take some photos of various kagami mochi when New Year's comes around and add them to the page. --DannyWilde 12:29, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
After all the trouble I took to demonstrate that the 3-layer type is indeed well-known, I would appreciate it if you didn't delete that same piece of information from the article. Thanks. Dforest 12:17, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

You certainly have not proved that it's well known, only that it exists in some regional variations of the standard kagami mochi. When I originally translated the article, if it had said two or three, I would have written "three" there without thinking about it. I strongly guess from the evidence, including the links and the Japanese text above, that the three layered version is fairly rare and limited to regional variations. My opinion is based solely on the evidence I have seen as described in the web pages above. Why you have reached a different opinion I have no idea. All I can say is that, you have certainly shown a consistent pattern of pestering me and I wish you would leave me alone. --DannyWilde 14:21, 11 October 2005 (UTC)


My edit description was cut off. Please note "three" was already verified per WP:V: Gishi sells the 3-layer type and the Tokyo Gas Japanese culture page (see Saitansurimono's translation above) explains its use. Dforest 10:38, 4 November 2005 (UTC)