Talk:Kaffir

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[edit] join with kaphir

??? *a bit beffudlled* - why is there "kafir" and "kaphir" when there should be only one, they mean the same thing --don't they?Dwarf Kirlston 01:16, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC) note: also kaffir - they all seem to be pronounced the same way... do they mean the same thing???Dwarf Kirlston

kaphir should be merged here (please feel free to do it!), kaffir should stay independent, as it deals with the specialized South African meaning. dab (ᛏ) 08:16, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] OED entry on "Kaffir"

The OED is considered *the* authority for words in the English language. The closest match is Kaffir. Thus:


From the Oxford English Dictionary, second edition (1989) - online version (and therefore the one most frequently updated with new words that have something resembling common usage) P.MacUidhir 18:40, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Kaffir

prop. Kafir, n. and a.

({sm}kæf{schwa}(r), {sm}k{fata}{lm}f{shti}r) Also kaffer, kaffir, kafir, kaffre; and see CAFFRE. [a. Arab. k{amac}fir infidel: see CAFFRE.]

A. n.
1. = CAFFRE 1, ‘infidel’, Giaour.

1790 J. BRUCE Trav. IV. VIII. ix. 497 Why did not you tell those black Kafrs..to stay a little longer. 1814 SOUTHEY Roderick v. 198 A Moor came by, and seeing him [the Goth], exclaimed Ah, Kaffer! worshipper of wood and stone. 1865 Daily Tel. 23 Oct. 5/1 Mecca..if the Moslems would permit..a ‘kaffir’ to come there.

2. a. = CAFFRE 2; one of a South African race belonging to the Bântu family. Also attrib., and as the name of their language. Also, usu. disparagingly, with reference to any Black African; transf., as a term of opprobrium, a white man who associates with or is thought to favour Black Africans.

1792 E. RIOU tr. J. van Reenen's Jrnl. Journey from Cape Good Hope 22 We saw several Kaffers. 1801 Monthly Rev. XXXV. 346 The incursions of the tribe of people called Kaffers. 1834 BOYCE (title) Grammar of the Kaffir Language. 1852 GODLONTON & IRVING Narr. Kaffir War III. xv. 180 The other teachers..who could speak Kaffir. 1857 Chambers's Inform. People II. 294/2 The Kafirs, a race strikingly different both from Hottentots and negroes. The Kafir nation consists of numerous sections. 1890 Pall Mall G. 15 May 3/1, I asked questions about the Kafir voter. 1926 S. G. MILLIN S. Africans 209 In the old days..men, thrusting their ancestry, their traditions..completely behind them, became what people sometimes call in South Africa ‘white Kafirs’. They merged themselves with the natives, stayed for ever with the wives they had bought and with their African children. 1949 [see HOTNOT]. 1949 Cape Argus 9 July 3/5 ‘Did you think he was a perfectly reliable person to give information to?’{em}‘I would have given the statement to a Kaffir if someone had sent a Kaffir along.’ 1959 New Statesman 2 May 62/3 How, for instance, does one describe negroid South Africans? The early missionary word ‘kaffir’, meaning heathen, has become a term of abuse. 1960 Cape Times 6 Sept. 7 A mob which swore at the police, called them ‘white Kafirs’, and hurled bottles at them. 1961 L. VAN DER POST Heart of Hunter I. iii. 62 Kaffir is the term used by Europeans to describe all black people in Africa irrespective of their race and origin. 1967 [see COOLIE, COOLY 2b]. 1973 Deb. Senate S. Afr. 17 May 2777 When we..were young people the word ‘kaffir’ meant nothing more than to indicate a Black man... It has deteriorated to such an extent that it offends people with a dark coloured skin and..we try to avoid it. Ibid. 2798, I have heard people when I visit a farm call out ‘Kaffir’ and a wife appears, and he says ‘my kaffir, prepare food for us’..; but, if I called my friend the hon. Senator.., ‘You are a kaffir’, then it has another meaning.

b. pl. The Stock Exchange term for South African mine shares. Also attrib.

1889 Rialto 23 Mar. (Farmer), Tintos climbed to 12, and even Kaffirs raised their sickly heads. 1895 Daily News 2 Apr. 2/2 Dealers in the Kaffir market. 1895 Nation (N.Y.) 19 Dec. 451/2 The mines floated on the London Stock Exchange which are classed under the general head of ‘Kaffirs’. 1899 H. FREDERIC Market Place 32 It was one of the men I've been talking about{em}one of those Kaffir scoundrels.

3. Usu. Kafir. A member of a people inhabiting the Hindu Kush mountains of north-east Afghanistan; Kafir harp, a primitive harp with four or five strings used by this people.

1854 LATHAM Hum. Spec. in Orr's Circle Sc., Organ. Nat. I. 336 Kafiristan, or the Land of the Kafirs..on the water~shed between the Oxus and the north-western system of the Indus. Ibid. 338 A Kafir, when sitting on the ground, stretches his legs like a European. 1896 SIR G. ROBERTSON (title) Kafirs of the Hindu Kush. 1961 A. C. BAINES Mus. Instruments 43 In the Kafir harp the lower end of the bow reappears above the skin.

4. attrib. and comb. Kaffir beer, an alcoholic beverage brewed from Kaffir corn by the Black inhabitants of S. Africa; Kaffirboetie ({sm}kæf{schwa}bu{lm}ti{lm}) S. Afr. [partial tr. Afrikaans Kafferboetie, f. Kaffer Kaffir + boetie little brother], an opprobrious term for a Negrophil; Kaffir-boom [Du. boom tree] = Kaffir-tree; Kaffir bread, the name of several species of South African cycads with edible pith; Kaffir Circus Stock Exchange slang, the body of brokers who operate in ‘Kaffirs’, or the place where they operate; Kaffir corn, Indian millet, Sorghum vulgare; Kaffir crane, a name formerly used for the crowned crane, Balearica pavonina regulorum, which is grey with a tuft of black feathers on top of its head; Kaffir date or plum, or Kaffir's scimitar tree, a South African tree, Harpephyllum caffrum, family Anacardiaceæ; Kaffir finch, fink, the red bishop-bird, Pyromelana oryx, or a closely related bird of the sub-family Ploceinæ; Kaffirland, the land of the Kaffirs; Kaffir lily, a herb of the family Iridaceæ, Schizostylis coccinea, bearing spikes of gladiolus-like flowers; also = CLIVIA; Kaffir (water-)melon, either of two species of melon, Citrullus caffer or C. vulgaris; Kaffir orange, a shrub or small tree of the genus Strychnos, esp. S. pungens, or its fruit; Kaffir piano, a S. African marimba or xylophone; Kaffir pot, an iron cooking-pot usu. on three short metal legs; Kaffir's scimitar tree = Kaffir date above; Kaffir tea, the plant Helichrysum nudifolium; Kaffir('s) tree, a South African leguminous tree, Erythrina caffra; Kaffir truck S. Afr., term applied to small miscellaneous general goods for barter or sale.

1837 R. B. HULLEY in F. Owen Diary (1926) 174 About a hundred pots filled with *Kaffir beer were brought and placed before the..men. 1905 Transvaal Agric. Jrnl. Jan. 314 Kaffir beer, which..is not..a bad drink for natives. 1952 L. MARQUARD Peoples & Policies S. Afr. iv. 101 Africans may..drink kaffir beer. This is a traditional African drink, brewed by African women from fermented kaffir corn and containing a maximum of 2 per cent of alcohol. 1968 M. PYKE Food & Society iv. 43 It is a very great error..to assume..that this Kaffir-beer is simply and solely an intoxicating drink. 1939 R. F. A. HOERNLÉ S. Afr. Native Policy p. vii, For a member of the White group to be concerned about the impact of white domination on the non-European population of the Union..is to earn for himself the title of ‘negrophilist’, *kafir-boetie, or{em}most scathing of all{em}‘liberal’. 1942 P. ABRAHAMS Dark Testament I. xiii. 71 One's got to live. I can't let the other fellows call me a ‘Kaffir boetie’. 1947 A. KEPPEL-JONES When Smuts Goes ii. 20 The disgruntled factions of trade unionists and liberals, Indians and ‘Kafferboeties’, seemed very small fry. 1958 N. GORDIMER World of Strangers v. 115 You must be Communist or Anti-Communist, Nationalist or Kaffirboetie. 1965 Punch 24 Feb. 272/3 Multi-racialists, educationalists, Kafir-boeties. 1827 G. THOMPSON Trav. & Adv. S. Afr. I. I. ii. 18 The stakes of this fence, consisting chiefly of *Caffer-boom (Erythrina Caffra) which grows abundantly in the neighbourhood, had in numerous instances struck root. 1880 Silver & Co.'s S. Africa (ed. 3) 135 Kaffir-boom..wood soft and light. 1949 Cape Argus 15 Oct. 4/5 The Alexandria forests, red with giant kaffir-booms. 1953 J. PACKER Apes & Ivory xv. 160 The red flowers of the kaffir-booms flamed in the hard clear light. 1964 A. ROTHMANN Elephant Shrew 19 There was a big clump of wild bananas in this camp, and also two large, spreading kaffirbooms. 1801 J. BARROW Acct. Trav. S. Afr. I. iii. 189 The zamia cycadis, or *Kaffer's bread-tree, growing on the plains. 1882 Garden 10 June 410/3 Encephalartos, or Kaffir Bread, is a genus confined to South Africa. 1958 L. G. GREEN S. Afr. Beachcomber 14 Beyond the Buffalo River lies the Wild Coast, with the frangipane and kaffir-bread trees growing down to the beaches. 1896 M. DONOVAN Kaffir Circus 96 A big boom is on in the *Kaffir Circus, and Laure's shares are worth £15,000. 1901 C. DUGUID How to read Money Article 121 The market in which they are dealt in the Stock Exchange is often called the ‘Kaffir Circus’. Term does not comprise Rhodesians. 1902 Encycl. Brit. XXXII. 865/1 At first..the ‘Kaffre circus’, as it was called, was regarded with contempt by the older habitués of the Stock Exchange. 1928 Daily Chron. 9 Aug. 8/6 Otherwise the Kaffir Circus presented a very idle appearance. 1785 G. FORSTER tr. Sparrman's Voy. Cape Good Hope II. x. 10 The kind of corn which they sow, is..known to yield abundantly. The colonists call it *caffer~corn. 1792 Kaffir corn [see black bean (BLACK a. 19)]. 1836 Encycl. Brit. (ed. 7) XII. 659/2 The soil is fertile, and has produced three crops of Kaffre and Indian corn in the year. 1896 N. Amer. Rev. CLXIII. 715 Put the land into kafir corn. 1954 R. ST. JOHN Through Malan's Afr. i. 14 Indian millet is called Kaffir corn. 1973 Farmer's Weekly (S. Afr.) 13 June 3 (Advt.), Prevent fallen kaffir corn and other crops from being double cut. 1834 A. SMITH Diary 15 Nov. (1939) I. 137 Saw several *Caffer cranes. 1853 F. FLEMING Kaffraria iii. 68 The handsomest of these [birds] to be met with is the Kaffir Crane..a species of the Anthropoides-Pavonia or Crowned-Demoiselle. 1906 W. L. SCLATER Birds S. Afr. IV. 279 Bugeranus carunculatus. Wattled Crane..sometimes ‘Kaffir Crane’ of Colonists. Ibid. 284 Balearica regulorum. Crowned Crane... ‘Kaffir Crane’ of some. 1822 W. J. BURCHELL Trav. S. Afr. I. i. 20 In the aviary I saw..the *Kaffers Fink. 1834 [see FINK n.1]. 1844 J. BACKHOUSE Narr. Visit Mauritius & S. Afr. xiv. 202 The Caffer Finch of this part of the country is Ploceus spilonotus. 1897, 1908 [see FINK n.1]. 1931 Kaffir fink [see bishop-bird]. 1973 A. P. BRINK Birds 4 You're so cocky. What are you{em}a kaffir finch? 1821 E. BLOUNT Notes on Cape Good Hope 137 A poet of great respectability..was ready to invoke the muse of *Kaffer-land. 1853 Househ. Words 11 June 338/1 Let us..see what the noble savage does in Zulu Kaffirland. 1900 W. D. DRURY Bk. Gardening x. 348 Schizostylis coccinea (Crimson Flag; *Kaffir Lily) is a lovely iridaceous subject with bright crimson gladiolus-like spikes of flower. 1946 M. FREE All about House Plants xii. 94 Clivia miniata, Kafir Lily. Give only enough water to keep leaves from wilting. 1951 Dict. Gardening (R. Hort. Soc.) IV. 1904/1 S[chizostylis] coccinea. Crimson Flag; Kaffir Lily. 1970 M. ALLAN Tom's Weeds ii. 27 A feature of Number 1 greenhouse was the imantophyllum or Kaffir lily, renamed clivea by John Lindley in honour of the Duchess of Northumberland (of Syon House) who was a member of the Clive family. 1886 G. A. FARINI Through Kalahari Desert xii. 199 Close by were a lot of young gourds growing which Kert said were *Kaffir melons; they were quite unlike our English watermelons; nor were they like a pumpkin. 1950 Cape Times 1 June 7/6 The National Parks Board has authorized expenditure on kafir melons with which to feed the elephants in summer-time. 1859 R. J. MANN Colony of Natal viii. 159 The ‘*Kafir orange’ of the sea-coast-bush is a ‘strychnos’ and has strychnine in its seeds. 1907 T. R. SIM Forests & Forest Flora Cape Good Hope 274 Strychnos spinosa (Kafir Orange..). An evergreen shrub 8-10 feet high, seldom a small tree... Fruit size of an orange, or larger, with rind green when young, yellow when ripe, hard shell, and numerous flat seeds lying in acidulous edible pulp. 1932 WATT & BREYER-BRANDWIJK Medicinal & Poisonous Plants S. Afr. 140 The pulp of the fruit of Strychnos pungens Solered., Wild orange, Kaffir orange..is acidulous from the presence of citric acid, and is very refreshing. 1952 S. CLOETE Curve & Tusk (1953) xiii. 112 There were patches where the marsala or kaffir orange grew, its round, hard-shelled fruit a favourite dish of the baboon and kudu. 1891 MONTEIRO Delagoa Bay 253 (Pettman), The song had a rapidly played accompaniment on the *Kaffir piano. 1897 J. BRYCE Impressions S. Afr. xiv. 251 The so-called ‘Kaffir piano’, made of pieces of iron of unequal length fastened side by side in a frame. 1931 J. MOCKFORD Khama xxiii. 157 To the throb and wail of these kafir pianos the big-bodied, lusty mine-boys dance freely in two long lines. 1948 H. V. MORTON In Search of S. Afr. x. 311 A native band was thrumming on ‘Kaffir pianos’, instruments like large xylophones. 1880 Silver & Co.'s S. Africa (ed. 3) 139 The *Kaffir Plum..an edible fruit about an inch long. 1896 H. A. BRYDEN Tales of South Africa 260 The kaptein..persuaded the vrouw to follow his own example, and roast wild duck or a joint of springbok in a *Kaffir pot. 1922 S. G. MILLIN Adam's Rest III. x. 254 Over the fire stood a big black tripod Kaffir-pot. 1959 A. FULLERTON Yellow Ford xiii. 177, I use a kaffirpot, a three-legged thing made of cast iron. 1851 J. J. FREEMAN Tour S. Afr. xv. 362 One kind hearted woman..prepared a Kaffir meal for us{em}a pot of sour-milk, some Kaffir corn bread and some *Kaffir tea. 1899 G. RUSSELL Hist. Old Durban 96 An indigenous herb both nutritive and refreshing, which is known to us as Kaffir tea. 1949 L. G. GREEN In Land of Afternoon 55 Bush tea is popular in the fashionable cafes of the United States. They call it ‘Kaffir tea’ over there. 1792 E. RIOU tr. J. van Reenen's Jrnl. Journey from Cape Good Hope 38 We interred the body of our friend, under a large *kaffer-tree standing alone. 1866 Treas. Bot. 468/1 Erythrina caffra, the Kaffir-boom of the Dutch, or Kaffir's tree. 1855 G. H. MASON Life with Zulus 133 (Pettman), This portion of South Africa is dependent entirely on the P. M. Berg traders for..*caffre truck. 1900 J. ROBINSON Life Time in S. Afr. 279 (Pettman), Glass, beads, knives, scissors, needles,..small looking-glasses{em}such are the chief staples of Kaffir truck. 1948 E. ROSENTHAL Afr. Switzerland: Basutoland vii. 83 Basuto, who crowd a quaint kiosk loaded with what is called ‘Kaffir Truck’ in South Africa{em}bangles, beads, mirrors, combs, and the like. 1951 D. LESSING This was Old Chief's Country ix. 198 He had gone into town and was down among the kaffir-truck shops buying a supply of aprons for his houseboys. 1832 Graham's Town (Cape Province) Jrnl. 1 June 92 All the Caffers..were dispatched forward, that they might get *Caffer water melons to make soup. 1838 W. H. HARVEY Genera S. Afr. Plants 105 The water-melon of which two colonial species C. Caffer (Kaffir-water-melon) and C. amarus..are described. 1932 WATT & BREYER-BRANDWIJK Medicinal & Poisonous Plants S. Afr. 180 Citrullus vulgaris Schrad is known as Water-melon, Wild water-melon, Kaffir water-melon.

B. adj. S. Afr. slang. Bad, unreliable.

1934 ‘N. GILES’ Ridge of White Waters II. vii. 266 ‘Another kaffir bargain!’ said Sir Alfred wearily. 1961 Spectator 14 July 53 ‘That was a real Kaffir shot.’..This..was the first time I had come across Kaffir, adj.: bad, clumsy, inferior..etc.

Hence {sm}Kaffirhood; {sm}Kaffirize v.

1858 Compend. Kafir Laws and Cust., Mount Cope, Brit. Kaffraria 166 A Kafirized form of some tribal name given by the Hottentots. 1877 J. A. CHALMERS Tiyo Soga xxi. 435 He was disposed to glory in his Kafirhood.

[edit] Cleanup of Kaffir/Kafir and related articles

I have split the old "Kafir"/"Kaffir" pages into kafir (Islam) for the religious meaning, kaffir (ethnic slur) for the insult as used in South Africa and Jamaica, South Africa Kaffir people for its neutral (sort of) use in historical contexts, e.g. the "Kaffir Wars". See kaffir (disambiguation). The old discussion is mostly in Talk:Kafir (Islam), except for some sections on general senses, that were kept here.
Jorge Stolfi 22:14, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Indentation of disamb page

The sense "blanket term for southern African natives" had been indented under the "ethnic slur" sense. I moved it up one level. The reason is that it is not clear that the "blanket" sense qualifies as an "ethnic slur".

The "blanket" sense apparently dates from the beginning of slave trade in the 16th century, and is therefore older than than the colonization of South Africa. Sure, the prejudice (and worse) existed at that time, but that doesn't seem to be enough to turn an ethnic name into an ethnic slur. (For instance, the English despised and hated the Germans during WWII, yet that did not make "German" an ethnic slur. Ditto for the English settlers in Australia and the word "Aborigine". Also, "negro" was probably synonymous with "black man" at some point, but somehow one became an ethnic slur, while the other didn't.)

Well, they had surrogates like "Nazi", "Kraut" etc. for that. It should be added that there was virtually no hatred against the English in Germany, despite the many war crimes commited against Germans. Then of course the term Kaffir was not understood as an "ethnic slur" in the beginning. It became only one, when "liberal Whites" started to "educate" them i.e. stirring them up against the Boers.


Methinks that a a word qualifies as a slur only if it has other negative associations besides just the name of a discriminated group, so that using it to name those peoples implicitly conveys the speaker's contempt for them; or if the speaker knows that the group dislikes that name, so that its use becomes an intentional insult. Both are certainly true of "kaffir" today, but I can't see how that could be the case in the early 19th century, say.

Also, according to this source the term had a more restricted sense in at a certain place and time (Eastern Cape frontier, the 19th century), which argues against it being just an ethnic slur at that time.

Indeed, if we should go by etymology, methinks that the slur should be subordinate to the blanket sense, rather than the other way around. But can we leave the two at the same level, as a compromise?

(Phew! Sorry to waste so many bytes on a miserly "*"...) All the best, Jorge Stolfi 23:02, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article "cleanup"

Someone deleted the second half of this page, with entries like "Kaffir lime" etc, allegedly to follow WP guidelines for disamb pages. I have reverted the change because:

  • Those "guidelines" are still a proposal, not The Law.
  • The deleted material took many hours to compile, analyze, organize, and edit. It is not reasonable to delete someone's work for mere "uniformity" reasons.
  • The list of "terms with Kaffir in their name" is separated from the disamb list and properly labeled as such. So leaving it there does not get in the way of the disamb page use. That is, the article is a proper disamb page plus some extra value. What is bad about that?
  • Moreover, that list is useful and important information that is not recorded elsewhere in Wikipedia. In particular, many of those entries will not turn up in searches, because their articles do not exist yet (but ought to eventually).
  • Even if all those articles did exist, a search for "kaffir" would turn up hundred of articles that use the word; and the articles that actually define "kaffir something" would be lost among them.
  • There is "danger of confusion" between all those senses (as required by the policy proposal), because a reader who wants to know about (say) "kaffir lime" may well think that "kaffir" is a general adjective like "edible" or "sweet", and hence look up "kaffir" rather than "kaffir lime". It is obviously better to tell him that "kaffir lime" is a single name, than to let him figure it out by himself.

All the best, Jorge Stolfi 21:05, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Respectfully disagree. Disambig pages are not search engine in wikipedia. They have strictly defined function, namely, to navigate between articles with the same title. Looking into history, I see it is you hobby and I understand you will be painfully reluctant to abandon. But what you pursue is not encouraged at other diambig pages. I am afraid I have to escalate this dispute to wider participation. Mukadderat 09:31, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

How about a new article like "List of terms with Kaffir in their name"? (better investigate naming conventions for lists before creating it.) Then one line under "See also:" could link to that article, and the dab page could be cleaned up. And cleanup it needs! Also, how about creating the missing articles, or at least making stubs? "Important information" should not be on a dab page, as dab pages are out of the mainstream, and many editors will not see them, so maintenance suffers, and many readers will not see them. Chris the speller 16:11, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
Obviously I cannot stop you from putting up a vote or anything; I can only lament that, after having spent a lot of time cleaning up other people's mess, for Wikipedia's sake (not exaclty "a hobby" as you say...), I have to spend still more time to prevent my work from being thrown away.
As I said above, this is not a search page. It is a page that fulfills the purpose of a disamb page, namely help the reader "navigate between articles with the SIMILAR titles" (obviously not the SAME title). It does all that a bare bone disamb page does, and a bit more. I still cannot see how taking out those entries will make Wikipedia more useful or easier to use. On the other hand, I can see many ways in which it will get worse.
Editorial standards exist for certain reasons:
  1. to make editing more effcient: namely, people who create or modify articles don't have to waste their time figuring out a nice layout, they can just use the standard one.
  2. reader's comfort: arbitrary changes in layout (font, color, etc.) distract the reader and make reading a less pleasant experience, so they should be avoided when possible
  3. marketing: a person browsing through the shelves of a bookstore is more likely to buy a book if it just looks nice (independently of what is written in it.
I believe that none of these reasons justifies erasing the second half of this article. As for #1, the work is already done, so it is not a question of bringing the page "up" to the standard", but rather of bringing it "down" to the standard. As for #2, the (few) readers who will get to this page will never notice that this page is "different" from other disamb pages, so the page will be no more distracting than any other. And ditto for #3. So, I ask again, what purpose does it serve to delete that list?
Moreover, this page has some information contents that does not fit anywhere else: namely, it shows how the term "kaffir" got used besides its original meaning.
Finally, let me note that if Wikipedia had stuck to its standards since the beginning, we would not have disamb pages, list of pages, categories, sections, and many more things that began as "violations" of the standards. Here as always, one cannot make real progress without violating the prevailing standards.
In any case, it is not ethical to simply deelte a lot of non-trivial information because it does not quite fit some (proposed) layout standard. (I have spent the best part of the last two months fixing the format of other peoples' pages. It seems that I could just have deleted them instead...)
All the best, Jorge Stolfi 22:57, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kaffir beer, piano and pot

None of these terms can be used in a modern sense without being insulting to black South Africans, and none are in common usage today (apart from as intensional racial slurs). Also, none of these links have articles as yet. If someone wants to put them back, maybe they can track down and find historical references, and mention that the use is depracated. -Kieran 13:17, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kaffiristan is not in the Middle East

Why is Kaffiristan under the subheading Middle East when Afghanistan is in the South Asian continent? -Klep 20:31, 16 Mar 2008 (UTC)