Talk:Kaczism

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[edit] Radio Maryja

I would kidly request to look up the heading Radio Maryja before removing my comments. There it states clearly that the station contributed to the election success of Kaczynski brothers. I felt that the comment here was needed to make the relevance of this link on this page immediately obvious. Plutarchus

[edit] False protection arguments

Please unprotect because the arguments for protection as written here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Pablo-flores#User_talk:217.98.20.20: are false:

  • The Warning for IP User talk:217.98.20.20 was for other internet user and other article - this is IP number of large Internet provider and can be used by hundreds of users. Roo72 used this confusing situation for his own private interest
  • the article is locked on obviously POVED version - with accusation of fascism of democraticaly elected president and prime minister of european country without any single proof attached.
  • The user is known for his political edits - (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Roo72)
  • and last but not least there is no revert war because only (Roo72)'s edits was the reverts - other edits introduced new facts or corrected the article.

[edit] Locked on obviously POVed version - there is no proof of PiS fascism connection pointed

Its a way of making political dust-bin of wikipedia. 83.29.153.85 22:28, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Nonsense. Please read the article again, as to the connection http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=kaczyzm+faszyzm&meta= The article does not state that PiS is a fascist party, it states that some people say so. Roo72 04:34, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
man, those are personal BLOGs and private opinions - not proof of fascism, don't you realy understand that? Encyclopedia is not a journal - it have to be based on sciences' methods of reality describing - not on journalists or even personal blogs. Here you should forget about your political standings and try to use politology as method to analise what you see. 217.98.20.195 10:12, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
man, don't you understand that the article does not say that PiS is fascist, just that there are people who say that it is, as you have noted above, it's their personal opinion and that's how the word is used in everyday language. Roo72 20:49, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article taken from political smear campaign

Of polish former-communist SLD party.

[edit] Not Neutral POV

The last paragraph refers to "lack of tolerance" and "homophobic tendencies", but PiS sympathizers would probably consider them debatable claims.

ofcourse - it looks like a political propaganda article of polish former communists 83.29.153.85 22:35, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Can the paragraph be rewritten to identify whose views are being stated? Chonak 07:52, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rename kaczyzm to kaczism

I renamed Kaczyzm to Kaczism, to keep strict English rules, as in case of nazism, fascism, communism, socialism, etc... look here for example [1]. Kaczism in French is Kaczisme, in Czech is Kaczysmus and in German is Kaczismus. Thus please rename article Kaczyzm to Kaczism. Obviously Kaczism sounds more English-like than Kaczyzm.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Wikinger (talk contribs) .

[edit] In English exists spelling as Kaczism

Look here, [2] that English is using word Kaczism. English is not Polish to spell this word as kaczyzm. In English is ending -ism, but not -yzm!

Agreed, but please see WP:REDIRECT and Help:Move on how to properly move pages.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  19:09, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Thus all is now OK. Kaczism is named as it should be correctly named in English. .—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Wikinger (talk • contribs) .

[edit] Page protection

I received a request by Roo72 to punish "vandalism". Being completely unfamiliar with the subject, I cannot judge which version of the article is more correct. What I saw, anyway, was not clear vandalism but a revert war. It doesn't matter who started it. I protected the page so all interested editors can discuss the article properly. The protection note explicitly tells everyone that protection is not an endorsement of the current version. —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 23:22, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I have not asked you to "punish" anything or anyone, I have asked you to have a look at the current situation where an anonymous contributor was constantly adding POV and false information to the article (as well as making personal attacks on my talk page but what the heck, let’s pretend we are all grown-ups and ignore this minor infringement).
As it stand now the article satisfies all NPOV and verifiability rules, it’s an almost verbatim translation of the Polish-language article that is considered to be neutral in tone (and it took a while too accomplish too). Cheers, Roo72 04:12, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
My take on our anonymous friend’s version:
my friend, I will answer you with a pleasure, but it's not my version it's version of several other users (see history).
Kaczism (Polish: kaczyzm) (IPA pronunciation: [kætʃizm]) is a term used used in smear campaign before parliement elections by oponents of the Polish Law and Justice (Prawo i Sprawiedliwość) party. Mainly by former communist (SLD) leader Joanna Senyszyn and other left-wing political activists.
There was no “smear campaign” (source please), the word was used by many different people from all over the Polish political scene. It was not “mainly used by SLD” - (source please – do you have a statistical analysis of its use in the media?). The whole paragraph is very loaded and misleading.
yes there was, and you provided the source already in your version - Joanna Senyszyn and her Sejm speach is one of the examples. Without any proofs of fascism its smear campaign
One speech is no "smear campaign". Roo72 20:47, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
The word itself is derived from the surname of the PiS party leaders (Kaczyński) and is considered as an element of mudslinging because it resembles the Polish word for fascism (faszyzm) when in reality many members of PiS party, and their families has been persecuted by Adolf Hitler regime. For instance father of Kaczyński brothers was soldier of Armia Krajowa, that was main force of anti-fascism underground movement in Poland during WWII.
Correct, that’s where the word is derived from but it is not in itself a negative word so it cannot be considered to be “an element of mudslinging”, as it is noted below its first usage was in a quite positive way. The fact that “many members of PiS party, and their families has been persecuted by Adolf Hitler regime” is neither here nor there. Just like the first paragraph, it’s very loaded and emotional.
its negative because it "resembles polish word for fascism" (as you has written) and without any single proof its simply mudslinging.
In the first meaning of the word there were no negative connotations, it was just a word derived from the Kaczyński surname but the word has changed its meaning and now is used in a negative way - it's a fact.
Despite the political propaganda, it was at first used in positive sense (just like for example thatcherism) in February 2006 when it appeared on the pages of the weekly Wprost[1] where it was to describe in the positive sense the political standings of the Kaczyński brothers.
There is no “political propaganda”, the word is in common use, it is wildly known and commonly used (just Google for it). Another loaded sentence where we get some emotional “despite political propaganda” instead of just being given the facts (as in the current version – “Its first recorded use was in February 2006 when it appeared on the pages of the weekly Wprost[1] where it was used to describe the political doctrine of the Kaczyński brothers in a positive sense (just like for example Thatcherism)”).
no its not used broadly, what you have shown is that in negative meaning it is used only by polish former communists' and their activists' blogs and www pages. Please show us proofs of fascism in PiS party, in other case it simply is political propaganda.
Oh communists everywhere, boo hoo, I know, I'm a communist too obviously. Once again - the article is not saying that PiS is a fascist party, it says that there are people who consider it to have some characteristic of such. Roo72 20:47, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Other widly broadcasted use: former communist Joanna Senyszyn (now Democratic Left Alliance) during a parliamentary debate in the Polish Sejm[2].
“Widly broadcasted use”? True, she mentioned it in her speech and that’s how it became popular but I don’t consider it to have been “widely broadcasted”. Another emotionally loaded sentence (not to mention poorly linked as the words “communist”, “SLD”, and “Joanna Senyszyn” have been already linked to their articles).
its not popular word, its used only by some political oponents of PiS party, please show me the sources where other parties' electorate uses it or people other then politicians and their supporters.
Yes, it is a very popular word, you can see in on the Web, on t-shirts, you can hear it in everyday language. As it is noted in the article "kaczysm" was used in a positive sense. You seem to make a direct connection that as soon one uses the word, it must mean that that person is a communist - how convenient. Roo72 20:47, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
The whole article is written in a very loaded, emotional way but it’s quite light on the facts and very liberal on the truth. Roo72 04:31, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
as for current (your) version - you're right.217.98.20.195 10:57, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Oh, how mature. Now let's see you write a version of the article that is factual, not emotionally loaded and not misleading. Roo72 20:47, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

This article is locked on the current version by chance. When I saw the edit war, I protected it. Protection doesn't mean the current version is OK. The editors above, who know what they're talking about, even if they don't agree on certain issues, should be able to work on a truly non-biased version. Assume good faith and be civil to each other. Just in case, isn't there an English-language source about this? It'd help others who don't read Polish (such as myself) get an independent idea. —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 23:30, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I can offer this article from the Spiegel http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,426197,00.html - "ust 21 percent of Poles think the new Prime Minister is a good choice, according to a survey."It's an unease shared abroad, and for good reason." The conservative Kaczynski brothers stand for a "strictly conservative national view of the world, for resentment against Germany and a utilitarian stance towards Europe. Concerned Polish commentators are already speaking of 'Kaczism'."" Roo72 23:38, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm getting an idea. Now, the current version talks about the first recorded use, which "was used to describe the political doctrine of the Kaczyński brothers in a positive sense (just like for example Thatcherism)". Could we have the actual description, translated from Polish? Then it also mentions Joanna Senyszyn's use of the term "in a far more sinister and negative way." Which were the words she used, or the basic idea of what she said?
From http://www.wprost.pl/ar/?O=73660 - Kaczyński sees Poland as a weak and demoralized country where corruption is rampant and various secret government agencies still run by people whom he consider to be communist (military intelligence, counterintelligence) have strong and unseen influences on the political scene. According to him there is a huge post-communist network still running in Poland. The rest of the article basically says that he is right in saying so and his doctrine of strong government is right.
From http://ks.sejm.gov.pl:8009/kad4/102/41022054.htm - she criticizes the current government, what she sees as their lies, says that the right wing parties want to create a fascist-like state and says that "nadchodzi era kaczyzmu" (the era of kaczism is coming").
Is it necessary to mention the etymology of the name with relation to "duck"? There are always proper names, in every language, derived from names of animals, objects, substances and places. What I mean is, does it really sound funny to Polish speakers? —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 14:31, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
I think so, so do most Polish speakers I would think and so says the Polish Wikipedia as well. Roo72 05:28, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Just one more comment from me Pablo before hopefully our anonymous friend will join us again for a more constructive discussion. I know the rules, I'm an admin (or as our anonymous friend would have it "a quasi-admin") on the Polish Wiki with quite a few edits to my name. The article as it stands now is an almost verbatim translation of most of the Polish Wiki article. The only reason that the English version is questioned is that the person who does so knows that there would not be too many people interested in the subject who know enough about on the en Wiki - which pretty much explains why the anonymous contributor has not tried to change the Polish version but wishes to spread some FUD over the English one. Roo72 05:40, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Looks like our anonymous friend is not really interested in further discussion, I would suggest unprotecting the page or perhaps using semi-protection, hopefully he will not try his old tricks again. Cheers, Roo72 08:23, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The context

Kaczynski brothers are quite democratic and liberal comparing to Vladimír Mečiar in Slovakia. I haven't found any Mečiarism here. So the existence of Kaczism notion proves rather freedom in Poland.

Let's go to Hungary - 2006 protests in Hungary continued in March 2007 and recently. No Gyurcsánism here.

Poland occupied place 61 on The 2006 Transparency International Corruption Perceptions Index. The Kaczynskis fought the corruption and one hardly can become popular when opposing local customs.

The Kaczynski brothers are quite democratic and liberal comparing to Jean-Marie Le Pen, who obtained 16.86% of the votes in France 2002. It shoud be noted that the Kaczynskis are anti-Nazi and pro-Israeli what makes their nationalism milder than some EU ones. Xx236 11:49, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Nobody with a mind to winning an election and forming government in a European country would declare themselves to be otherwise. 124.189.101.45 (talk) 07:49, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Name derivation

The name "Kaczyński" derives from the name of a town (or a village or other settlement) "Kaczyn" or "Kaczyń", which may or may have not been derived from the word "kaczka" (eng. duck). The more correct statement would be, that the name "Kaczyński" resembles word "kaczka", but not that derives from it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.77.161.24 (talk) 23:08, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

So, as there are no comments on that matter, I will edit the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.77.161.24 (talk) 22:05, 30 May 2008 (UTC)