Talk:Kākā

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[edit] Macrons

Can someone check if Kaka has a macron? Onco p53 09:39, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Bonza, so it does (actually two). Is there a complelling reason why this article should not use kākā exclusively? Onco_p53 02:59, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
Well, this is the English Wikipedia, so it should reflect English usage, not Māori. We have an article for Tui (bird) and not for Tūī, for instance. See the discussion at Wikipedia:New_Zealand_Wikipedians'_notice_board/Archive_1#Should_Articles_Be_Using_Macrons. Maybe I've been reading the wrong books, but I haven't seen many English language texts that use the macrons. So I believe the article should say Kaka, not Kākā. -- Avenue 11:13, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
That link you gave resolved nothing. Try this instead. Moriori 19:45, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
Your link resolved something else - that the word Māori should be spelt with the macron (which I agree with). That's very different from saying that every English word borrowed from Māori should be spelt with macrons. In the discussions at both my link and yours, the argument that our English Wikipedia articles should reflect usual English usage, not Māori, seemed to feature strongly. I think this supports my position. -- Avenue 00:23, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Firstly, Like Māori, Kākā is NOT an "English word borrowed from Māori". Secondly, your "reflect usual English usage" isn't supported by the actual votes. Moriori 03:48, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
FWIW, it's the local version of a Polynesian term meaning "parrot", or more properly "the most notable parrot around" if there were several. Just like "weka" or "veka" means "the local Gallirallus species". Dysmorodrepanis 19:02, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Assuming you mean the votes at the link you gave above, you are wrong on both counts. I'll quote from the first "Oppose" vote (i.e. a vote for spelling it as Māori, i.e. using the macron): "My English dictionary (The New Zealand Oxford Paperback Dictionary) shows it as Māori." I read that comment as confirming that Māori is an English word, and that the writers of that dictionary believe it should be spelt with a macron. There are several other votes with comments making the same general point, that Māori is now the accepted NZ English spelling.
And it is a loanword, borrowed from te reo Māori. My copy of Orsman's The New Zealand Dictionary explains that the word "Maori" comes from māori, meaning normal or ordinary. Incidentally, this dictionary spells the English word "Maori" without a macron, and it was published in 1994, so the change in the accepted spelling is quite recent. -- Avenue 08:36, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Are you serious?. The votes at the link I gave you were eleven against and four for changing Māori language to Maori language. Moriori 09:33, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
The comments I referred to above were from those voting against changing Māori language to Maori language, i.e. they were part of the majority. And the reason they gave for their vote is the same as my reason for preferring Kaka over Kākā; that they believed this was currently the most accepted spelling for the word in NZ English. Not that it is the correct spelling in the Māori language; that's not an appropriate test for English Wikipedia articles. Please, give this some thought and decide whether you agree with the reason they gave for their votes. -- Avenue 12:06, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Your argument doesn’t work for my vote. I vote for kākā for the same reasons I vote for Māori. Barefootguru 18:19, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Yes, you are being consistent; the reasoning you gave ("Māori is the form NZ is moving toward and is recommended by the Māori Language Commission") would argue for kākā. But your reasoning was queried, and you were the only person who gave that reason. So while you were part of the majority vote, I don't believe that the reason for your vote was part of the consensus. And I strongly disagree with your argument. We should reflect current NZ English usage here, not some idealised future version promoted by the MLC. -- Avenue 23:23, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Current NZ English usage would have us using a mixture of UK and American spellings, misplaced apostrophes, and more. I’d rather use an authoritative source. Barefootguru 05:04, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
Would you accept "typical current NZ English usage in reputable publications"? It's more of a mouthful than "current NZ English usage", but it is closer to what I meant.
The problem with using "an authoritative source" for macron usage is that some authoritative sources use them, and some don't. For example, in The New Zealand Oxford Dictionary, by Tony Deverson (Oxford University Press 2004, Oxford Reference Online, Oxford University Press, accessed 17 February 2006), I see that both Maori and kaka are spelt without macrons. In contrast, one of the comments given at Moriori's link mentioned a spelling of "Māori" from a similar source. -- Avenue 11:05, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Now that this general topic has been raised again on Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_New_Zealand, how about we continue the debate there and come back to this article once it's been resolved? -- Avenue 01:46, 16 February 2006 (UTC)