Talk:Köppen climate classification

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Köppen climate classification was a good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Reviewed version: September 26, 2006

Based on the consensus between me, Isomorphic and Dittaeva (see my talkpage), I moved the original Köppen climate classification scheme to this page, as it means the same thing, and the "scheme" was rather redundant. -- Matt Borak 13:00, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Precip less than evap

(William M. Connolley 13:54, 2004 Mar 27 (UTC)) Arid/desert are "These climates are characterized by the fact that precipitation is less than evaporation." sez the page.

This makes no sense: apart from river/runoff, ppn=evap everywhere over land. In the sahara, ppn is definitely = evap, since there are no rivers.

The page actually says "These climates are characterized by the fact that precipitation is less than potential evapotranspiration." See the definition of potential evapotranspiration to understand this.

[edit] Trewartha

Suggestion: it seems to me that there is enough detail in the Trewartha climate article to split it off into its own article, then link to it. Comments? -- hike395 15:29, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I'm not shure. It seems to me that it is here on purpose because it depends on / references so much to the Köppen scheme. I think you should wait for a comment from the original author or ask him trough his talk page. Dittaeva 08:16, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)

[edit] References

Maybe some of the References section should be removed. It seems rather redundant to keep listing the book, publisher, and author. VashiDonsk 03:40, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree, probably no need for references to each chapter of McKnight et al. individually. Deditos 12:10, 25 May 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Southern Hemisphere "D" climates

No "D" climates in the Southern hemisphere?

It's almost a quibble, but some highland areas in New Zealand have winters cold enough to qualify for "D" climates, but have cool summers just warm enough to remain outside of montane tundra (ET). These zones of D climates (Dfb or Dfc) are small, but they exist. They barely appear on most worldwide climatic maps or are treated with the portmonteau label as 'highland' climates.

More precisely, one can state that because of the configuration of land and seas in the Southern Hemisphere, "D" climates exist only in restricted areas of mountainous zones in the middle latitudes.--66.231.41.57 06:27, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Failed "good article" nomination

This article failed good article nomination. This is how the article, as of September 26, 2006, compares against the six good article criteria:

1. Well written?: Fail This article gets very confusing in the first section titled "The scheme". Article also fails WP:LEAD.
2. Factually accurate?: Fail The only reference is a book. I would like to see some web references.
3. Broad in coverage?: Fail Could use a history section to tell how this idea was created.
4. Neutral point of view?: Pass
5. Article stability? Pass
6. Images?: Neutral Try to put some picture if possible. They are however not required.

When these issues are addressed, the article can be resubmitted for consideration. Thanks for your work so far. --Tarret 22:59, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Milan

Milan in Italy does have summers warmer than 22 degr Celsius, the coldest winter month has an average of 1 degr C and there is, unlike most of the mediterranean, frequent summer precipitation. See here. Whether Britannica labels the climate continental or not does not say very much; many of the areas in the United States could be labeled continental as well. The temperature distinction between the humid continental (Dfa) and humid subtropical (Cfa) is the -3 degr C (0 C in the US) in the coldest month. The label subtropical might seem strange for a location where there might be snowing in winter, but that goes for many locations in the US and China as well...There is an area from the Po valley in northern Italy and in parts of the Balkan which fullfills all criteria given in the article. Orcaborealis 10:15, 28 November 2006 (UTC) Source for summer precipitation here. Orcaborealis 10:17, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

This discussion continues here: Talk:Humid subtropical climate. Dantadd 01:35, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Geiger

The first mention of "Köppen-Geiger" is the heading "World Map of the Köppen-Geiger climate classification..." and who this Geiger fellow is doesn't get mentioned at all. I assume it's Rudolf Geiger. Anyone wish to expand the article? —Pengo 14:04, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] University of Melbourne map

The new map has a better resoution than the previous, but raises at least two questions:

  • There is mismatch between the text and the map, at least on Dsc, prominently colored in the map. Please change one of them.
  • The zones will vary with the time interval chosen. "Period of record: All available" is a poor description. Can this please be improved? Gabriel Kielland 19:20, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
Better resolution?? The new map is not good. I can see many mistakes for the country I know best, Norway: Porsgrunn and Skien on the southeastern coast colored as a subarctic (Dfc) climate, Lofoten not colored as Cfc, highlands in Nord-Trøndelag colored as Dfb, and so on. I suggest you switch back to the original map. Orcaborealis 20:49, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
@Orcaborealis: Sorry, but this map is given to us by the University of Melbourne and is very recent and peer reviewed. So I am not going to remove this at all. Please be happy that we receive updated scientific maps.
@Gabriel: I checked the colours for Dsc and they all match, on the map and in the legend on and below the map. If you have question about the Period of record, please see the this page and read the pdf or e-mail Dr. Peel. (I will add a reference on this page, to make it more clear. Please see the image-description page for more details). --Jeroenvrp 12:18, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
The specific problem with Dsc is that the article now says : "Dsc, like Dsa and Dsb, is confined exclusively to highland locations near areas that have Mediterranean climates, and is the rarest of the three as a still higher altitude is needed to produce this climate." The UofM map, however, shows Dsc mainly in Kamtchatca, Alaska and Yukon. Either the article or the map is wrong. A third possibility is that the time period chosen could have an influence on discrepancies of this kind. Gabriel Kielland 22:12, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Than I think the article is wrong. Dsc has dry summers with 4 or less months per year that the average monthly temp. is more than 10°C (also called cool or cold continental climate with dry summers). Dsa an Dsb have higher temperatures and some of them are indeed near areas that have Mediterranean climates (like the Anatolian Highlands). See also this map on commons for comparison (only for comparison, because that one has no source). See also the paper of the UoM-map. --Jeroenvrp 23:25, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
P.S. See also this map. --Jeroenvrp 23:46, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Csc climate type?

Does anyone know if a Csc climate type (I guess a "cool-summer Mediterranean climate") exists anywhere in the world? If so, where, and if not, what conditions could theoretically give rise to it? For that matter, does Cwc exist anywhere besides La Paz, Bolivia? I found a page that said it existed in Lhasa, but the temperature regime listed on that article doesn't support that. --NetherlandishYankee (talk) 14:23, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

A possible candidate for a Csc climate: Røst, the outermost island in Lofoten (elevation 10 m), averages 28 mm precipitation in May (so it is less than 30 mm), and 88 mm in October, so that's more than three times as much. All months are above freezing, and less than four months are above 10 °C but more than one month (met.no climate data Røst). So it is at least very close, although the wettest season is autumn. Røst is a very low island, there are no mountains slowing down the clouds. Orcaborealis (talk) 20:33, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 0C or -3C?

What climate zone are NYC, southern New England and northern New Jersey in? I think that either the dividing line between Dfa and humid subtropical should be where the coldest month is -1.5C or areas with a coldest month temperature of between -3C and 0C should be called "continental-subtropical." There could also be "warm" regions of this climate (such as eastern Bergen County in New Jersey and NYC), sourced here: (http://www.idcide.com/weather/ny/new-york.htm), with January (the coldest month) temperatures averaging -1.5C to 0C and "cool" regions (such as southern New York), (look it up by clicking on nearest cities), whose January temperatures average between -1.5C and -3C. As for Cape Cod being Marine West Coast, its summers look way too hot to me. Maybe people in the U.S. should observe the -3C line too. Oh, and one final word about NJ's counties. Eastern Bergen County's January's are between -1.5 and 0C, while Passiac County's and western Bergen County's are between -1.5C and -3C. (on that website) In Sussex county, January's average temperature is under -3C (you guessed it- on that website). Press olive, win oil (talk) 21:22, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Debatable Map

According to http://www.idcide.com/weather/ny/new-york.htm, New York City's coldest month temperature averages above -3C/26.6F, making it a Cfa climate according to the Köppen climate classification (the summers are hot enough). In the map, New York City is in the Dfa range, probably because the map uses 0C/32F as the coldest month's average temperature as the border between C and D climates. Köppen's system uses -3C/26.6F, making New York City Cfa, which the map does not. The map isn't actually using the Köppen climate classification. Press olive, win oil (talk) 21:46, 27 April 2008 (UTC)