Talk:Juval Aviv

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[edit] Security experience

I moved the following statement from the article to this page for discussion.

"in New York for El Al. This is apparently his only security experience."

It is unclear whether the "apparently ... only" modifier is true. First, Aviv claims he was a member of the Mossad. Second, the article states that he was a member of the Israeli armed forces. My understanding of "security experience" is that both the (not indepentdently verified) Mossad connection, and the (presumably independently verifiable) military experience would count as "security experience." --Zippy 22:05, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Army service is not security experience. Everybody goes to the army, but crewing a tank, let alone servicing one, or whatever he was doing in the Armoured Corps, doesn't give you any experience relevant to security. His supposed Mossad service isn't just "not independently verified", it's positively contradicted by people who would have known him had he been there. The fact that he claims to have worked for the Mossad shouldn't count for anything; lots of con men and madmen make similar claims. --User:Zsero 4:29, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
I was thinking of the ordinary meaning of "security experience" which I think most readers would take as anything including "security guard", "police officer." Certainly, his experience as a security guard for el Al would count as most people understand the phrase "security experience." Perhaps what the article is trying to say with "security experience" could be re-worded to be specific. Do you have a more specific meaning in mind?
Regarding the dispute over whether he did or did not, we should present the verifiable facts. And the article does. It's verifiable that Avner claims X, and it's also verifiable that other people who should or would know claim otherwise. Given that this is about a sensitive matter, it's presumably more difficult to independently verify, so I think this is the best we can do. --Zippy 22:41, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
Of course the El Al job counts as security experience. Nobody has suggested otherwise. The point is that that is his only security experience. His service in the armoured corps has nothing to do with security, and nobody would understand "security experience" to include that. --User:Zsero 0:22, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
One thing I did notice with Juval Aviv's account is the mention of an American firearms instructor, named "Dave". He is said to speak broken Hebrew, and is a former U.S. Marine. When I read the book Secret Soldier by Sayeret Matkal operator Muki Betser, I noticed that he mentions the same instructor, and as far as I can recall was trained at approximately the same time period as Avner/Juval. The kind of training both of them were in at the time had to do with being El Al security guards/Sky Marshalls. Wikiphyte 14:44, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Of course it is difficult to obtain corroboration of Avner's or Yuval's account. That is difficult in ANY industry. Anyone who breaks ranks and leaves and then gripes about what he or she has left behind is difficult to get written support on from those who are still in it because their livelihoods depend on it. That is true for pretty much any business out there. That doesn't make the whistleblower right or wrong. The best indication is that the industry says nothing because then one can presume that they don't wish to argue any evidence the black sheep who left has. I have seen that numerous times just in business. A prime example is ETL/SEMKO/Intertek/Warnock Hersey. Check the talk page. I would put that sort of thing into the article, that, yes, we can't find independent written corroboration, and it's unrealistic to expect any in such a case.--Achim 10:07, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

Does anyone have sources for his birthplace, education, and work experience? It would better to say "according to ..." given that nothing is known for certain. SlimVirgin (talk) 03:43, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A problem user has hit this article

A member with the screenname "Ogadeux" has purposefully posted blatently false information on this article several times now. I removed his first false edit, and I am going to remove his latest, which says

"As it turns out Mr. Aviv is a complete fraud. A known pathological liar, he has no MA degree in Business from Tel Aviv University (see if he can produce a diploma) and he never worked for Mossad (according to Mossad). He worked for a short time as a flight attendant with El Al and the extent of his security expertise is as a luggage searcher at Kennedy airport. When he got tired of driving a cab in NYC he made up a fantastic yarn and sold it to George Jonas who then wrote the book Vengence."

I am new to Wikipedia, and I have joined just to take care of this problem. If anyone knows how to lock this article so that Ogadeux can no longer falsify it, please do so. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mcarter67 (talk • contribs) 20:05, 6 April 2007 (UTC).

According to: Melman, Yossi and Steven Hartov, "Munich: Fact and Fantasy", The Guardian, 17 January 2006, some of these allegations may be true. 69.140.172.221 12:35, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vanity editing

Spbraswell, you keep removing criticism and adding book reviews and other glowing material as though this were the subject's personal website. Please try to write in a more neutral tone, usingn reliable sources. Dust bunny 07:06, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

interesting... been checking -- FOX ran him http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,161962,00.html

and I found this later find interesting.

Why? I know what CIA did to Keith Hall - and because they did what they did to Keith (ignored his findings & reports - he was the head investigator for the Embasy bombing in Beruit ) the Marine Barracks was blown to sheet. Something Keith, also a Marine still deals with. ( Google Captain Crunch )

Entire story is here: http://americanradioworks.publicradio.org/features/lockerbie/resources/story_aviv.html

Asked recently to back up that characterization, Hurley, formerly of the DEA, faxed us a letter dated May, 1990. The letter, signed by Yigal Carmon, "Israeli Prime Minister's Advisor for Countering Terrorism," says Juval Aviv never worked for Israeli intelligence and was fired from a low-level job with El-Al airlines for "dishonesty."

The letter is on plain white paper, not Israeli government letterhead. We faxed it to the Israeli Embassy in Washington DC . A spokeswoman said the letter did not have the look of a letter sent from the Office of the Prime Minister. When reached at an office in Tel Aviv, Yigal Carmon said he "did not know of anyone called Juval Aviv" and refused to discuss the contents of any letter with us.

A spokesperson for El-Al Airlines in Tel Aviv said he was unaware of any such incident of "dishonesty" by Juval Aviv, or of any firing of Aviv.

Aviv, for his part, produces several documents that he's entered into court refuting the accusation that he lied about his background. The documents include an FBI memo about Aviv from 1982, obtained through the Freedom of Information Act, and a contract between Aviv and the US Justice Department, dated 1984. Both refer to Aviv's past association with Israeli intelligence. As late as 1993, an FBI agent wrote to Aviv asking for assistance in a tax-recovery investigation, even as other government officials were publicly calling Aviv a fabricator.

In public attacks against Aviv in the mid-1990's, government officials also pointed out that he'd been arrested for alleged mail and wire fraud. The fraud charge was filed in 1994 after an investigation by the FBI. The charge: that Aviv had defrauded a corporate client, General Electric Capital, in a small contract a few years earlier – that he'd claimed to interview people on a fact-finding trip in the Caribbean whom he'd never really interviewed.

But at the trial in 1995 in the Southern District of New York, Aviv produced records showing that he had in fact conducted all the interviews for which he'd billed GE. The jury deliberated for just 90 minutes before acquitting Aviv.

After the verdict, the presiding district judge, Louis Stanton, wondered aloud in the courtroom why the FBI had gone out of its way to prosecute Aviv given that the alleged victim, GE Capital, had filed no complaint. In fact, GE representatives testified that they'd been entirely satisfied with Aviv's work. Stanton also pointed out that the fraud charges resulted from an investigation by two agents who were working on aspects of the Lockerbie case. The judge said those circumstances led him to infer that the fraud charge against Aviv "was generated from some other source, and the only source in the record so far for which any such purpose could be ascribed is the report in the other case, in the Lockerbie case."

Clearly, none of the government's behavior toward Aviv proves that Aviv's claims about the Lockerbie bombing are true. Aviv insists that from the start he's been willing to listen to proof that his report is all wrong. But Scottish police investigating Lockerbie have never interviewed him or asked him for his sources.

"I was never told directly that [my report] was wrong," Aviv says. "I was always attacked as the messenger, as somebody who was a fabricator, a lunatic, whatever."