Talk:Jutsu (Naruto)/Archive 2

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Archive 2

Jutsu lists...

If a vast number of people used the lists, then it was an actual function of WP, was it not? Even if you want to ignore WP:IAR, WP is supposed to be a free encyclopedia, and although Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information, a comprehensive list of fictional abilities does not fall under that list, nor do they violate Wikipedia:Five pillars. The lists were not harmful to WP at all, and the assuredly hundreds users of WP who don't contribute in any way but used them now have nowhere to go. And don't try to point at a wikia, because it's incredibly hard to get momentum in a fan wikia and a large number of users don't feel the need to check some unreliable fansite. I should note that Wikipedia:Notability (fiction)'s designation as a policy/guideline is also currently disputed, so "One time use" or not, there's no reason for it not to be there. Since a vast number of people want the lists, and a number of them have gone as far as to dispute the policy, it would seem logical for them to be reinstated. People continue to harp on about how they want the A-Z lists back. Since Wikipedia is based on consensus and I truly do not feel that consensus has been reached concerning the Jutsu lists, since Consensus can change let's try to come to an agreement on this. AeroRoy (talk) 01:10, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I am of the belief that compromises can be made, so I have come up with a solution. I have taken the archived lists of Jutsu, compiled them into one article, and placed them at Techniques - Narutopedia. Would it be acceptable for the Jutsu page to link to this website? Until it's been decided against, that's what I'll do. AeroRoy (talk) 01:49, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Better make that Category:Lists of Jutsu —Preceding unsigned comment added by AeroRoy (talk • contribs) 02:22, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

How is a list of attacks not an indiscriminate collection of information? A compilation of things that are of no significance to the plot and that are rarely used more than once seems to be an exact definition of "indiscriminate collection of information". Ignoring the fact that the lists were redirected four months ago and there has been no good reason to bring them back since then, precedent (1, 2, 3) is not in favor of lists of attacks. Let either of the two Naruto wikias deal with jutsu. ~SnapperT o 04:52, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

The lists were useful information for certain people. And although I think that the two Wikias are a nice temporary solution, one only needs to look at all of the articles on either of them that did not originate from Wikipedia to see the... drop... in quality. The one I used has fanart in the other articles. I used the lists months ago and was totally unaware that they had been changed into redirects until recently because I did not have the opportunity to refer to them, and the only time I checked the Naruto section, I was confused by all of the reductions. True, a compilation of things that are "of no significance to the plot" may be "indiscriminate information" but it was easily accessible here and people used it. It was kept up to Wikipedia's quality standards (as a form of information) and because it was used, it was a working function of WP. Not only that, but here, undisturbed as they were, the lists had a future. I believe I said before how hard it is to get momentum in a fan wiki. As I said before, a large number of people want the lists back, and without them they have nowhere reliable to go. Since the lists do not violate Wikipedia:Five pillars, specifically the last one, so there's no reason for them not to be here other than the fact that some people simply do not think they are important enough to be here. AeroRoy (talk) 17:25, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Since the first pillar states that "Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information", I'll need to disagree with the idea that the lists were not against the five pillars. That the lists weren't harmful really doesn't qualify, as having an article on my kindergarten teacher wouldn't hurt either. An article on her would of course be deleted, as would all the lists were they to return.

As for the wikias' failings, improving them in quality (making them well-written, informative, and up-to-date) would be a good way to attract the attention of fans. Pimping them out like crazy at a high-traffic Naruto forum also couldn't hurt. And whenever it is that the wikias improve beyond copy-and-pastes of old Wikipedia articles, they'll be advertised here.

But really, I've never understood why you would need a list of every jutsu in the first place; 95% of the time, if you know a jutsu exists, then a description of it isn't going to tell you anything you don't already know. Those other 5% of jutsu that aren't instantly identifiable are covered in this article or with the specific character that uses it. That is the most that will ever be tolerated by fiction deletionists, and thus the most you'll be finding on Wikipedia. ~SnapperT o 22:45, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Narutopedia huh? Anywho, the list of Jutsu's has already been archived here, and on the Naruto Wikia] in what I think is a neat and organized fashion in the way of splitting techniques up. Regardless, Snap is right. Its this or nothing. So buck up and accept things here or go to the Wikia of your choice. (though I would suggest the Naruto Wikia, as it is more complete...^_^)--TheUltimate3 (talk) 23:05, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Video games

If anybody plays Naruto video games, please it would be great if you put sth about these jutsu, like saying if it is the strongest, the easiest to perform, etc....^_^)--Tintor2 (talk) 21:00, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Chidori/Rasengan/Kakashi nature manipulation date confusion

In this Article, it is said "Chidori (千鳥, literally "One Thousand Birds") is an example of nature manipulation created by Kakashi Hatake after he failed to infuse his own nature manipulation with the Rasengan." while it is refrenced to chapter 321. I read the page (two page after kakashi craetes rasengan with his right hand), where kakashi says "Just regular shape manipulation has an A rank acquisition difficulty level. At just that level, I can somehow manage to copy it". This means he had learnt rasengan through his sharigan. His recived his sharingan at a point of time after he created his chidori techniqe. So I would like to change this statement. Obviously he tried nature manipulation on rasengan long after he created chidori. He coulndt have created the chidori after he failed to add nature manipulation to rasengan. Fotte (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 13:08, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Already discussed, see Talk:Kakashi Hatake.

Tintor2(talk) 13:34, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Notability

I notice that the notability tag has been removed. However I can not see any independent sources. Taemyr (talk) 08:41, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Japan

I think this should be part of WikiProject Japan because Anime is Japanese - hope every one agrees! Akira-otomo (talk) 15:42, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Martial Arts

I think this should be part of WikiProject Japan and WikiProject Martail Arts as Anime is Japanese and this is relating to Anime and Manga, and it is about a fighting style, and though it is fictional, it is still about Martail Arts, hope you agree! thanks Akira-otomo (talk) 18:11, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

IGN quotes

I find the quotes from IGN throughout this article totally unnecessairy. IGN has virtually nothing to do with Naruto and this article really doesn't need it's two cents after every jutsu. Furthermore, nothing it adds is particularily insightful, and much is redundant or irrelevant. 76.69.165.83 (talk) 03:51, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

It's out-of-universe information, something the article desperately needs. If you can find something else along the same lines (and enough of it that the IGN refs aren't needed) it can be removed. ~SnapperT o 03:59, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Why the heck does the article "desperately need out-of-universe information"? I mean, what good does IGN:s little fan-made fanlists do? How encyclopedic is the info provided by IGN? And why is it needed, anyway? It's a major part of a major fictional work. It's like walking into the Harry Potter pages and deleting, for example, the entry on UnforgivableCurses, because, really, they're not real, there is no out-of-universe information to provide for it. Show me these guidelines that somehow translate into "MUST HAVE Out-of-Universe info or the page will be deleted!". Yuna-chan (talk) 19:08, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

WP:WAF, Wikipedia:Notability (fiction), and so on. ~SnapperT o 23:57, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah... providing information about what IGN thinks of the Jutsu doesn't even give the article notibility. How about we, you know, compare the various Jutsu to actual real world Ninpo? Like the Kawarimi (which was an actual real life Jutsu) and put in a little note about the differences and similarities to real world Ninpo. Yuna-chan (talk) 03:24, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, I cleaned them up so they read a little better. Hope that's acceptable. 80.42.164.92 (talk) 08:51, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Concerning weapon summoning.

Where is/was it demonstrated that "a donation of blood is required to summon" a weapon? ... I sincerly believe that this is incorrect. 217.208.24.113 (talk) 13:20, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't, TenTen is an avid weapon summoner and its never shown her offering blood to summon them. I've never seen a case where it has been a prerequisite. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ditch88 (talk • contribs) 00:35, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Does anyone know were to find the list of Jutsu?

I've been to Narutopedia and Naruto wiki and they don't have very good information. Is there a way to find the old list or find someone who has one almost as good as the old one? Plus the one they have now doesn't really have any info that's actually useful. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.111.219.80 (talk) 09:39, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

There isn't a way to easily link to them, so just sift through this. ~SnapperT o 23:55, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Narutopedia's problem is we are nowhere near done. However there likes here that would link you to the old Wikipedia articles.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 01:16, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

jutsu release

Heh, I'm really lost... does anyone know how to correctly say "wind release, earth release, and/or lightning release"? I've got fire, water and wood releases down but nothing else. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Regenki (talk • contribs) 23:51, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't know how this follows talk page guidelines. The talk pages are not forums. σмgн gσмg 23:55, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Water jutsu/Tenten trivia, fancruft

When Tenten is contained within one of these prisons she claims she cannot breathe, but other characters have displayed the ability to remain within it for long periods of time and are even capable of speaking. (ref: Chapter 257)

No my friend, it is irrelevant.

More likely Neji and Lee can hold their breath longer than she can. That is all. Not a contradiction, or as you say, "plothole".
Even if it is one, this is not the place to point such excessively minor details out. Plus it just ruins the article's flow. Please for the sake of article quality and usefulness, avoid Fancruft.

--Lionelster (talk) 05:36, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Kakashi sounded nothing like he couldn't breathe when he was in Zabuza's water prison (when he spoke). He was also in there for far longer than humanly possible (time + the fact that he spoke). It's a plothole. Yuna-chan (talk) 16:21, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Mangekyo's Right and Left Eye

Zetsu mentioned that it's said that the Mangekyo's left eye is the strongest with Genjutsu, while the right is strongest with Ninjutsu. I think it should be mentioned, that "Acording to Zetsu, the Mangekyo Sharingan's left eye is rumored to be strongest with genjutsu while the right is strongest with ninjutsu." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.130.24 (talk) 16:43, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

At the moment that is only known to apply to Itachi. Kakashi's left Mangekyo doesn't seem to perform genjutsu. ~SnapperT o 19:59, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree, Snap, but it should also be noted that Kakashi only has one Mangekyō, so I don't really know whether that is the case. That being said, let's wait for some verifiability. Sasuke9031 (talk) 20:02, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Kakashi's Mangekyo

I was reading the chapter where Itachi explains the origin of the Mangekyo and realized something that may be pretty important: in the manga is explains that when taken from your brother, the Mangekyo gains new abilities. Is it possible that the simple act of transferrance triggers the activation of the Mangekyo, or at least creates the possibility of gaining the eye? Kakashi couldn't maintain constant usage of the Sharingan at the best of times, and use of the Mangekyo seems to wipe him out. There has been much speculation about how Kakashi gained his version in the first place (which seems to have different abilities than Itachi's) and this is just about the only one that makes sense to me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thunder-bald (talk • contribs) 23:31, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Its a nice theory, but It has been shown what the Mangekyou looks like when transfered, and its nothing like Kakashis. Also, i think that rule only applies to Uchihas. And the reason it whipes him out is because of the tremendous chakra use, the Sharingan uses chakra because Kakashi is not an Uchiha. Rau J16 23:46, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Organizing Kekkei Genkai

Here's a thought. Now that Kekkei Genkai is merged into the Jutsu article, perhaps it should be a good idea to organize the Sharigan, Byakugan, etc under it. Just a suggestion for now. ZeroGiga 03:14, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

List of Jutsu

. I was just wondering if someone had a link to the old page which had the list of ninjutsu, not just the recurring ones, and if they had the same for taijutsu, genjutstu, eccetera. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.149.155.116 (talk) 17:34, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Crappy Recurring Jutsu List

A bunch of jutsus, that appear often, aren't there. Most of Sasuke's fire jutsu aren't there, even Chidori nagini (Nagashi) or however you spell it. The replacement jutsu is other one too. The water jutsus need more than just a small paragraph, I mean if Pein is in rain country you know there's going to be quite a few more of those. The new Recurring Jutsus list needs a big update. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.111.219.80 (talk) 21:31, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you completely. If someone would care to send me a message, I will happily post the jutsu, and their descriptions. I have them all saved..send me a message Tenraiyouso (talk) 03:55, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Some Questions/Comments/Suggestions

The reason why I am not making these corrections myself is that while I read the guidelines, I still do not completely have a hang of them. As such I would like to outline the possible errors and omissions first to see if they are inkeeping with policy. Also I have to go back and get the exact primary source for the infomation.

The first is about the sharingan. Wasn't it written that the reason for its "ability to track and predict movement" is that it is able to see the movement of chakra (stated in one of the more reecent manga volumes)? Also the editor for this section describes the sharingan's third ability as "a unique brand of hypnosis". Isn't this referred to in the series as genjutsu (all genjutsu are a type of hypnosis)?

Can the rock-paper-scissors nature of elemental ninjutsu be included, that is, fire>wind>lightning>earth>water>fire>...?

Should the list here be grouped according to its designation under ninjutsu, taijutsu, and genjutsu or should it just be labelled as such under the current format? 190.58.186.99 (talk) 20:20, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

And here we run into another problem with the deleted lists. While the complete list was just way too much fancruft, the fact that there is no distinction between Nin-, Gen-, and/or Taijutsu in the recurring jutsu section is of grave concern, especially after being forced to move some kekkei genkai over here as a result of a disruptive AFD (I'm surprised it hasn't been brought to DRV, but I'm not going to be the one to do so, as I am supposed to be bold, not stupid.). I agree with separating the recurring jutsu into distinct categories as long as it remains on this page. As for the elemental jutsu info, that is pure speculation and as such is not allowed.

Now for the Sharingan question, as that is a matter in which I am very familiar with. Though it is true that genjutsu in and of itself is a unique brand of hypnosis, the Sharingan is different because it forces a user to do a certain jutsu or move in a certain pattern, as demonstrated when Kakashi beat Zabuza the first time. As for the prediction theory, a Sharingan can see and predict the movement of chakra for everything except a bijū, and by extention, a jinchūriki. That is why Sasuke had such a hard time not using that third Chidori against Gaara, and why when Naruto went one-tails, Sasuke could not predict the movements. The only possible way to predict a bijū's movements is with Mangekyō Sharingan, the next level, which was demonstrated be Madara when he had Kyūbi destroy Konoha 12 years before the main storyline.

Hope that answers your questions. Sasuke9031 (talk) 00:58, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

I do not think that the elemental jutsu rock-paper-scissors is speculative since Kakashi and Yamato explained it to Naruto (just before the fights against Hidan and Kazuzu). When he was training to further develop his rasengan they said that--everything else being equal--his is wind type chakra affinity is a good counter for Sasuke's chidori but would backfire if used against sasuke's fire jutsu. I should also have been more specific and said that a function does not carry across other functions (i.e. while water beats fire, this does not at all imply that water also beats wind).

And how descriptive am I allowed to get? I do not want to make the effort to improve the page only to have everything deleted. Avoiding all fancruft, would it be okay to include in the definition of Sharingan:

The Sharingan (写輪眼, Sharingan? literally "Copy Wheel Eye," English manga "Mirror Wheel Eye") (excerpt from current def)
ocular Kekkei Genkai unique to the Uchiha clan
The Sharingan is thought to be descended from the Byakugan,[34] but grants the user different abilities and a different insight. (excerpt from current def)
The Sharingan does not automatically appear from birth in a user.... (excerpt from current def)
strength is dependent on its level of evolution (i.e. number of tomoe in the eye, with a maximum of three in each) and its mastery by the user
enables owner to use a particular form for mind-controlling genjutsu; sense and predict the movement of chakra of everything except bijū; copy many types of basic jutsu. In order to reproduce copied jutsu, however, one must have the necessary skill or ability to perform them
The characters who currently possess the Sharingan include Sasuke Uchiha, Itachi Uchiha, Kakashi Hatake, and Tobi. (excerpt from current def)
It is possible to transplant Sharingan eyes from one person.... (excerpt from current def)
IGN has described the Sharingan as one of the best abilities.... (excerpt from current def)

Would putting only these points in paragraph form satisfy the editors?

Thankyou for the feedback 190.58.184.27 (talk) 03:38, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

The rock-paper-scissors concept is already covered in the chakra section. And I'm not really sure what you're asking/wanting to do about the Sharingan. Could you clarify? ~SnapperT o 03:57, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Sharingan users

shouldn't we put that madara can use it too. since he was practically the first to have sharingan. and we should put a list of people that can use the Mangekyo Sharingan, Kakashi, Itachi, Madara. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.214.76.123 (talk) 15:45, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Shouldn't we add something about the mangekyo sharingan giving its user eternal life after they have taken their siblings eyes. It should be added because it is clearly stated by itachi in chapter 385 of the manga while fighting sasuke,

Madara and his brother got their eyes by training... No way in the manga did it show they gained it by killing their closest friend. This shows the eyes can be obtained by training, just like how kakashi did with his. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.26.136.5 (talk) 07:23, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

I dunno, I think I saw some blood splattering in the manga right before Itachi explains that they both obtained it. I think that was supposed to be a self-explanatory reference to the requirement.68.48.140.194 (talk) 12:01, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Byakugan

Chapter 394 Sakura and Hinata has a conversation which Sakura asks maybe Tobi's ability is a genjutsu and Hinata says she already thought of that and extended her byakugan's range to see if his chakra was still there...It doesn't seem like a new ability, but at the same token it also seems that it implies that the byakugan has some abilities to help against genjutsu?68.1.120.5 (talk) 17:38, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

She was looking for other chakra sources in the area, ie. the Tobi casting the genjutsu. It's not new. ~SnapperT o 18:35, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Partially that. Also, she was looking to see if Tobi's chakra was where it was supposed to be, ie. in his body.68.48.140.194 (talk) 12:06, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

That's the problem I'm having with this statement. I mean if genjutsu is supposed to trick to person's senses...than why would expanding the byakugan's range help in that scenerio?68.1.120.5 (talk) 19:03, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Kakashi doesn't have a mangekyo

In my opinion, Kakashi doesn't have a Mangekyo. when did he ever say it was a mangekyo? the reasons i say this are that Itachi said there are only 3 techniques, Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu, and Susano. which none have the ability of Kakashi's Mangekyo. it could be just a powered up version of the Sharringan, that can only be obtained by training. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.214.76.123 (talk) 23:01, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Volume 31, chapter 276, page 4, panel 1. --JadziaLover (talk) 01:22, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

then explain y it has an ability that Itachi's Mangekyo didn't have. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.214.76.123 (talk) 21:13, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Maybe because it isn't Itachi's Mangekyō? --JadziaLover (talk) 21:31, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Because we dont have absolute knowledge over Mangekyō? as far as we know he could have it but not used yet? or every mangekyou has different kindda techniques?? --Fotte (talk) 21:08, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Itachi said there are only 3 techniques of the Mangekyo Sharingan, Tsukuyomi,Amaterasu, Susanou. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.214.76.123 (talk) 23:06, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

He never said "only" and it has never been commented what is the main point of the mangekyo sharingan. It has only been mentioned the user will become more powerful. Kakashi also commented he has a mangekyo sharingan after fighting against Kazuku and told to Naruto that he would have used it.--Tintor2 (talk) 23:20, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Itachi said that the Left eye holds Tsukuyomi, the Right eye holds Amaterasu, and when you have mastered both, you obtain the Susanou. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.214.76.123 (talk) 16:35, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

The first two items are true, although Zetsu said it, and the latter item was never stated in the series. In any case, this is not a forum for your conjecture. Sephiroth BCR ^(Converse) 18:08, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Kakashi never used any techniques with his Mangekyō Sharingan. All he did was use its abilities.71.249.55.78 (talk) 22:03, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

He didnt use the techniques of Itachi. The databooks never confirms that every user that gains the mangekyo will use tsukuyomi, amaterasu or susanoo. When Itachi commented that Madara and his brother won the Mangekyo Sharingan, the two brothers had different Mangekyo Sharingan (chapter 386, page 6).Tintor2 (talk) 00:24, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Jutsu List

Is there page holds the list of jutsu in clean sort order?--Fotte (talk) 21:17, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

We got rid of it. It was decided only major jutsu should be mentioned. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares (talk) 21:18, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism/unsupported claims?

One of his friends who was dieing in a local hospital told the nurses to take one of his Mangekyo Sharingan eyes and give it to Kakashi since he lost his left eye during the battle.

That was at the bottom of the Mangekyou Sharingan section. I am suspicious. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.107.60.55 (talk) 20:06, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

That is SOMEWHAT true. Uchiha Obito was dying in battle and asked his team-mate, Rin, to implant one of his Sharingan eyes into Kakashi. HE WAS NOT IN A HOSPITAL. RIN IS A MEDIC-NIN, NOT A NURSE. IT WAS THE REGULAR SHARINGAN, NOT THE MANGEKYO. So basically, it's vandalism. Check the Kakashi Gaiden in the manga (between Naruto and Shippuden arcs), it's not in the anime. IceUnshattered (talk) 23:40, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Sasuke's Mangekyou

Sasuke was also a person who obtained a Mangekyou without killing a friend are you people forgetting about kakashi?--The Last Uchiha 17:20, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, who even knows where Kakashi's came from? For all we know, some low level ANBU who he taught might have "disappeared."

(Not likely though.)

What I'm wondering is, wasn't Sasuke's a one shot deal? I mean, I saw the design, but I thought it was just Amaterasu transferring, and being awakened for that one kill that didn't actually occur? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.34.118.15 (talk) 01:44, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

oh god >< read kakashi gaiden if you want to know where kakashi got his sharingan--The Last Uchiha 09:19, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

The Last Uchiha, I think he was referring to how he got his Mangekyou Sharingan, not his Sharingan. and Im not 100% sure but its heavily implied by Madara that it was a one shot deal. Ditch88 (talk) 01:12, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

oh ok but it wasn't even said or implied that it was a one shot deal--The Last Uchiha 09:55, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

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