Talk:Jutland

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moving dubious etymology:

In another Indo-European language ,Sanskrit juta means matted hair, jata braid of hair , in East Ind. jhuto ,the same.

In other words it means exactly the same as the German word rope which consists of matted, braided hair (plant fibre).

Some historians link Jat or Jutt community of India and Pakistan with the inhabitants of Jutland. burdak 05:40, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Contents 1 List of largest cities 2 Flag? 3 New map request: Jutland 3.1 Comments to the new map 3.2 Jutland Peninsula or Cimbrian Peninsula? 4 dialect

[edit] List of largest cities

I have removed Billund and Ribe from the list of largest cities. Having them there was simply ridiculous. But the list still needs to be edited. --Troels Nybo 09:05, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

-- Right, the list is a bit dubious... Why is Flensburg ranked #4? What about Lübeck? Norderstedt maybe? I'm not sure about Vejle's position, according to the German article they have rearranged the region's administrative structure and now it has >100,000 inhabitants. --212.7.132.130 13:22, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Regarding the Vejle issue; the actual town of Vejle has approx. 50,000 inhabitants. The 100,000 figure represents the entire municipality which was expanded on 1 January 2007. As I understand this list, the objective is to describe actual centres of population, so by this token, Vejle has "only" 50,000 inhabitants. Valentinian ^{T / C} 21:42, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Flag?

I believe the image of the flag should be removed. I first heard of it many years ago, but I've never seen a single example of it used in the real world. If anyone has additional information feel free to correct me, but I believe it is pretty close to a hoax. Regards. Valentinian ^(talk) 19:02, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

I - being the vexillophile user who originally added the flag - think it shoudl stay put as trivia and curiosa. The fact that it is not commonly flown or even recognized/associated with Jutland can be prominently stated in the caption. BigAdamsky|TALK|EDITS| 10:36, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I'll buy it if it is listed as a curiosity. Valentinian ^(talk) 10:51, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

being a Native of jutland and a vexillophile i must say i think the flag should be removed. Another flag (see: olmo.1go.dk/jyske-fane1.gif) is occasionally used - this flag I have simply never seen before.

Den Jydske Fane was used during the seven year war. The flag of jutland as Dannebrog in reverse colours has surgested in 1972, but has never found use. Furthermore Vendsyssel (most northen part of the peninsula) has its own flag.

[edit] New map request: Jutland

Copied here from User talk:Astrokey44:

Hello there! Just in case you are open for new requests, here's another article that I would like to see adorned with a better map: the Jutland Peninsula. I want the map to help illustrate an upcoming edit by me which will help explain how Lauenburg to the south and North Jutlandic Island are commonly reckoned as part of Jutland, even though technically they are not. Also, the current map does not show the Limfjorden as physically disecting the peninsula. My vision for the project would be to endeavour to delimit the extent of the peninsula physically, ethno-culturally and administratively. To illustrate this: The northern delimitation would be either the Skagerrak (administratively) or the Limfjord (geographically, since 1825); the southern extremity is either the isthmus (geographically) which arguably disects Holstein, or a line following the Eider River and the Danevirke defensive wall (the traditional ethnic boundary between the North Germanic tribes and the continental Germanic peoples proper) or the modern political border as established by plebiscite in 1920.

Suggested list of toponyms and geographical features to be included:

Peninsulas and islands:

Djursland | Mols | Angeln | Skaw | North Jutlandic Island | Mors | Fehmarn | Als | North Frisian Islands (Sylt, Fanø, Föhr)

Rivers and canals:

Kongeåen | Gudenåen | Eider River | Kiel Canal | Elbe-Lübeck Canal

Cities:

Århus | Kiel | Ålborg | Lübeck | Vejle

Non-administrative regions:

Himmerland | Vendsyssel | Thy | Schleswig | Holstein | North Frisia | Salling

Other:

Danevirke | Wadden Sea | Skagerrak | German Bight | Kattegat | Little Belt | Limfjord | Hedeby | Bay of Kiel

Suggested resources:

1. Map of the three historically distinct parts of the peninsula
2. Chronology of maps of Schleswig-Holstein
3. Historical Map of Schleswig-Holstein 1730
4. A map of the 1920 plebiscite zones in Schleswig
5. Extremely large files with historical maps of Schleswig
6. A historical map of traditional districts of Denmark

So, what do you say buddy? Do you reckon you have the zest and the time to take on this request of mine? If yes, rest assured that your efforts would generate one grateful peninsula! ;] BigAdamsky|TALK|EDITS| 15:01, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Didnt know exactly how you wanted the colors depicted, but this shows most of the features mentioned above. Some other things:

• wasnt sure the exact route of some of the rivers(especially the Eider), theres so many rivers shown on the maps I have around there that it gets confusing which is which
• not sure if Mors and the other small islands in the Limfjorden should be coloured pink (same as Vendsyssel) or left blank
• not sure exact position of the Danekvirke wall or of Hedeby
• not sure about the extreme southern boundary - though the elbe and the elbe-lubeck canal might be it though this would include Hamburg.. or did you mean for it to be the kiel canal? -- Astrokey44|talk 01:50, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Comments to the new map

It's pretty good so far, but the map needs few minor tweaks.

• The border of Southern Schleswig is wrong. The correct border is shown on Image:Slesvig-counties.png and - even better here: [1]. As you can see, almost all of the eastern third of of the Kiel Canal (until slightly east of Rendsburg) is actually the Eider. Don't assign Fehmarn and Ærø to Schleswig, that is an archaic practice. Rømø and Als belong to North Schleswig, the other North Friesian Islands to South Schleswig. Fehmarn belongs to of Holstein. Fanø and Manø (not sure if the last one is one the map. If not, don't mind) should be coloured with the red colour used for most of the peninsula.
• North Jutland, is generally grouped with Vendsyssel-Thy so it should use this colour.
• The location of Hedeby is incorrect. It was western extremity of the Schlei (the long fjord-like inlet in south eastern Schleswig (I've promised to do a map of that region, but I'm not very good at drawing. I did collect a lot of material though, so I can mail you that.) A few ultra-close-up maps of the structure is here [2] and [3]. As you can see, Dannevirke is actually a series of earth walls. Hedeby was located inside the semi-circle at the extreme right of the wall.
• Southern border the peninsula. This issue is the most problematic. The current location seems pretty much ok.
• The label "Wadden Sea" is misplaced. That location is the shallow waters between the west coast of the mainland, and the North Frisian Islands. These waters are very shallow, and the region is - to a great extent - land, that sank 400-500 years ago. * Btw, if you're interested. "Jysk" is no longer spelled with a "d". That use was abandoned around 1875, but it is often found, since some Jutlanders prefer it for sentimental reasons. Regards. Valentinian ^(talk) 09:46, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Hi Valentinian, I have fixed some of the things you mentioned, changed Hedeby, tweaked Eider River path, moved Wadden Sea (although I am still confused where it is - the article says it goes between Denmark and the Netherlands - is it only the part of the sea which is close to the coast?). However, the orange colour is supposed to be the line of the Danevirke, not the south of Southern Schleswig (I did not show the southern border of southern schleswig). Expanded the caption to make this clearer. Also I am not sure if the islands you mentioned should be coloured as it is a map of the peninsula itself. The same is for North Jutland - the pink colour is supposed to show the island of Vendsyssel-Thy as being separate from the rest of the jutland peninsula as Big Adamsky mentioned above. --Astrokey⁴⁴ 05:44, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Nice map! It's pretty much what I'd envisioned. The only thing I would change on the current map is to colour all land between the international border and the Eider River the same colour, except in the far east, since this region is generally reckoned to constitute Southern Schleswig. The Danevirke is an ancient landmark that had little effect on subsequent definitions, but I suppose the name of the country of "Denmark" originally referred only to Scheswig ("the (fortified) Borderlands of the Danes"). :] BigAdamsky|TALK|EDITS| 20:59, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Just for the record, Dänischwohld (Danish: Jernved) in eastern Schleswig was just as much a part of Denmark and the Duchy of Schleswig as the rest of the region. The border followed the Eider from Levenså / Levensau just north of Kiel. Regarding the second issue, well, the origin of the name Danmark is still pretty disputed. One theory correctly states that Germany's shortly held borderlands north of the Eider were named Mark Schleswig (similar to Mark Brandenburg, Mark Lausitz and Ostmark) and that Danmark is a corrupted version of a similar name referring to the tribe. Again, this theory is very disputed. Best regards. Valentinian ^(talk) 23:21, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Ok then Ive changed it to show the same colour down to the Eider --Astrokey44 00:31, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Four things:

• The north Frisian Island of Nordstrand lacks a bordering line (coastline)
• The Wadden Sea (nl:Waddenzee - de:Wattenmeer - da:Vadehavet) would be all the tidal flats on the coast roughly from the dutch island of Texel in the west to the danish island of Fanø in the north. Tidal Flats are parts of the sea that fall dry during low tide. The Border to the open Sea would run roughly along a line linking the outside coast lines of the outer Islands. The only island in this area not in the Wadden Sea is Helgoland (missing in your map). The parts of the Wadden Sea between a line to the east and a second to the south of Helgoland (Eider to Weser) would be the only stretch of coast that has no bordering line of islands, with long fingers of "Watt" stretching into the sea. All this would make placing the text in a map of your scale rather difficult as the name would always be outside the region of the named object.
• The east border of the "Kimbrian Peninsula" would rather be the river courses of the Wakenitz with the Lake of Ratzeburg and the Schaale with the Schaalsee.
• Another southern addition to the map might be the city of Altona, in the 19th century (1776?-1864?) the largest port and second largest city of Denmark - today a suburb-city on the west of Hamburg (part of the Bundesland Hamburg since 1937). --T.woelk 09:31, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I think Nordstrand lost its border line in the changes in colour previously, Ive added it and changed some of the other things you mentioned --Astrokey44 03:54, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

er well... "Ratzeburg" is the name of a town on an Island in the lake of Ratzeburg - "Ratzeburger See" - with the river "Wakenitz" connecting it to the river Trave. And the southern Lake is the "Schaalsee" (double a, one l) with the river "Schaale" draining it to the Elbe. Else nice work --T.woelk 23:35, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jutland Peninsula or Cimbrian Peninsula?

Hm, what you mean, is the Cimbrian Peninsula. Jutland is the part of Denmark starting north of the border to Germany. No one in Schleswig-Holstein or Denmark ever calls the southern part of the peninsula "Jutland". The Cimbrian Peninsula and Jutland are in my terms (and I live in Schleswig-Holstein) two different geographical things. It must also be noted, that our both people use the terms like that. -- Arne List 17:21, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Hmm... I would love to see some examples of contemporary usage of the ancient Latin name Chersonesus cimbrica ("Peninsula of the Cimbri") for the Jutland Peninsula. I thought that name was abandoned many centuries ago. BigAdamsky|TALK|EDITS| 17:35, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, lets read the Danish Wikipedia first:

Historisk inddeles den jyske halvø i Hertugdømmet Holsten, syd for Ejderen, Hertugdømmet Slesvig eller Sønderjylland, der er området mellem Ejderen og Kongeåen, og Nørrejylland, der er området nord for Kongeåen. Nørrejylland var en del af Kongeriget Danmark. Men lige som med Jyllands sydlige grænse er begreberne også her flydende.

Sønderjylland bruges således dels om hele Slesvig, dels om Nordslesvig, dvs. den del af Slesvig som nu hører til Danmark. Endelig er ordet undertiden blivet brugt om hele den del af den jyske halvø, der ligger syd for Kongeåen, dvs. også Holsten.

This means:

"Historically ist the Jutish peninsula divided into Holstein south of the Eider, Schleswig or Sønderjylland, the area between Eider and the Kongeå, and Northern Jutland, which is the area north of Kongeå. Northern Jutland was a part of the Danisch Kingdom, but like the southern border of Jutland, the terms are floating.

Meaning:

Southern Jutland is thus used from time to time for entire Schleswig, sometimes for Northern Schleswig, i.e. the part of Schleswig, which now belongs to Denmark. Finally, the term is used for the whole peninsula, which lies south of Kongeå [correction: Eider], i.e. also Holstein". http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jylland

While the Danish version is dealing with all historical borders, the German version says frankly:

Jütland (dänisch Jylland) ist der kontinentale Festlandanteil Dänemarks, der die Kimbrische Halbinsel im Norden Schleswig-Holsteins fortsetzt.

"Jütland is the continantal main land part of Denmark, wich continues the Cimbrian Peninsula north of Schleswig-Holstein"

Hope, this gives less confusion than more, but "Cimbrian Peninsula" is unduobtly a clear term, while "Jutland" varies, q.e.d. -- Arne List 18:43, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I know what both of those articles say and what most of the other wikipedia articles say about Jutland. But I am fairly sure that the Latin name is not a commonly used name for this landform, since any reliable external source (e.g. an established encyclopedia or a dictionary) will tell you that the peninsula is called Jutland, and not Cimbria or Cimmeria. But as I said, I would be very interested in seeing an example of its use. :) BigAdamsky|TALK|EDITS| 21:21, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Arne, I have done some cursory surfing and searching on what this peninsula is called, and apparently sources in German say (just as you stated) that the landform is not called Jütland in German, since this name is reserved for the Danish region, exclusively. Some English and Danish encyclopedias also add a clause saying that "usually/sometimes the name refers only to the Danish part of the peninsula" and will use terms such as Jutland Peninsula or Jydske halvø if they wish to be explicit that it is the entire physical landform they are referring to. However, translations of Kimbrische Halbinsel are not used in any non-German sources that I have come across (except in ancient texts). We should probably mention this in the article, yes? BigAdamsky|TALK|EDITS| 11:28, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Kimbrische Halbinsel is indeed an old but nevertheless very valid expression. The solution may be the context in wich it is used. It is a geographic term used by geographers, in modern normal life this expression is simply nearly useless and therefor rarely used. I first heard of this expression (always "Kimbrische Halbinsel" not Cimbria and never Cimmeria which is something completely else) in school and have come accross it ever since though not often and not in motoring atlases or touristic material but rather in geographic works or biological maps. --217.251.41.167 23:16, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm Danish (from North Schleswig, actually) and I have never heard any Danes or Germans use "the Cimbrian Peninsula". Seems to me that is a term only used by geographers. Historically it makes no sense, because the Cimbrians did not inhabit the whole peninsula, but only the northernmost part.

Anyway, let's say there is a difference. Then Jutland must be North and South Jutland, i.e. Nørre- and Sønderjylland in Danish, down to the river Eider. The Cimbrian Peninsula would then be Jutland plus Holstein. Therefore I disagree with listing Kiel and Lübeck among the largest cities in Jutland. I seriously doubt you'll find any people from Holstein calling themselves Jutlanders. --dllu 11:34, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi, I'm coming from Holstein and for the peninsula I know no other expression than "cimbrian peninsula" (Kimbrische Halbinsel). Jutland is either the Danish part, or historically, the part until the Eider river (though that is a bit of Danish propaganda, I shall refer to Bismarck for giving the reasons why the Danish war in 1863 was justified), but Holstein certainly is no part of it. Also, naturally, the southern border of the peninsula should be considered the Elbe river. Before Hamburg, it is still up to 1 km wide and it looks a bit silly to draw the line through the middle of Stormarn. And while we are at it, the Saxons were not removed from Holstein, the eastern border of the Saxon part ran from Kiel to Hamburg, west of that has been Saxon country for at least the last 2000 years. The Saxons spread about 400 A.D. south of the Elbe river and around 500 A.D. to England and knowing where the Saxons have spread since (eastern Germany, Prussia, Baltics, Northern America, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa...) I wouldn't bet on the fact that they were forced out.80.235.69.5 (talk) 23:17, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Coming from Lübeck, I think you are right with the Jutlanders. We are tempted to look at this peninsula as a "North-South-thing". Certainly the old road "Ochsenweg" was such a vector for traffic. But the conflicts arose at the isthmus situations, they go East-West. In Viking times this was the strength of the settlement at Schleswig until Lübeck got to power. The small landbridge between Schlei and river Treene had to be under control to govern the trade from the Eastern Baltic Sea and Russia (incl. the Black Sea) with the North See and Western Europe. This moved to at Lübeck at the Elbe/Trave isthmus (with the smaller rivers of Stecknitz and Delvenau in the 12th century, which had a bigger capacity for the salt trade, as an example, and was closer to the German Hinterland, to deliver the salted or dried fish and other voluminous goods. So the Wakenitz is not part of this isthmus, it is close by, but has other important functions like water and power supply for the early settlement. The people here had from their language fight against the Dukes of Holstein and Mecklenburg and certainly against the King of Denmark and the Danes. The country south of Kiel Canal is from the language described as Holstein with smaller subterritories like Stormarn. North of the Canal is Schleswig and north of the federal border ist Jutland. If someone in the south of Schleswig-Holstein says: I go to Jutland, then he intends to go north across the border to Denmark, at least to Nordschleswig=Südjütland. Another important border is the Limes Saxoniae. Since the duchy of Lauenburg was never a part of Holstein, I have some problems to find a definition, where the South Eastern base of the Cimbrian peninsula should be. Between Stormarn and Lauenburg probably west of the limes saxoniae, which is preferably following waterways. Kresspahl 17:38, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] dialect

as this is an articel of the peninsula, a statemeant (and an slightly overstated one) about jutlandic dialects in the Danbish part seems displaced.