Talk:Justinian I

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[edit] Birthplace again

Don't you think that the part about the birthplace of Iustinian should be changed or at leat corrected to reflect the lack of certainty where exactly it was? The site if Justinianan Prima is identified as Caricin Grad near Lebane, Serbia in all Wikipedias that have an article about it (Serbian, German, English, Albanian). As far as I know, and I do know a bit about it although it is not my speciality, Caricin Grad is considered to be the most likely candidate for Justiniana Prima and Justinians birthplace by the majority of scholars that deal with this period. There is also a sizable litterature on the topic, of which I cannot at the moment mention anything since I don't have my own bibliography with me nor am I close to a library. I've also excavated on the site and, the way I see it, the earchaeological evidence (since the literary one is less than clear) points to Caricin Grad as the site. I didn't want to make any changes myself since there are other people who have put a lot of effort and good work into this arcticle and the final decision should be theirs but I believe that at least a note on the ambiguity of evidence should be added. Dagobert 06:10, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Literary References

Don't know if you want to include a literary reference section, but for what it's worth, Justinian appears in Dante's Divine Comedy. He is on Mercury, in the second realm of heaven.

Sure, go ahead and add the section. Perhaps A Struggle for Rome and other historical novels could also be included. Iblardi 20:12, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Justinian's origin

You are removing sourced material from the article based on your own WP:POV, like it or not, the references you removed respect WP:RS, and removing reliably sourced material is considered vandalism in wikipedia. Please seek consensus for each of your removals first or they will be reverted and try to discuss changes rather than engaging in an edit war.- Best regards Bartebly62 18:03, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Hello Bartebly62. The point is that, as Vasiliev indicates, there is no consensus on Justinian's descent, simply because the sources do not tell us anything about it inform us about it in a way that would enable us to link him to a specific (ancient or modern) ethnic group. You can easily verify this by looking it up in relevant literature, such as Vasiliev's classic work. Compare also this article in the Concise Encyclopedia Britannica, in which Justinian is called an Illyrian. The only thing we know is that his family came from a region where Latin (rather than Greek) was spoken; everything beyond that is speculation. Having our article say that Justinian was of ancient Macedonian stock is therefore simply misleading. Now, the sources you provided are non-specialist, i.e. they don't specifically deal with Justinian or even Byzantine history.
By the way, accusing me of vandalism / edit warring when I do provide a specialized source is not helpful at all. Iblardi 18:36, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

For the sake of transparency, I am copying the above discussion from our user talk pages to this page. Iblardi 20:31, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Saint" Justinian??

Not that I have a problem with it, but when was Justinian cannonised? I know within the Orthodox church, there is not an official process, but I had never heard anyone referring to him as a saint. I doubt if anyone ever did. Is this a modern zeal? --Khodadad 21:58, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

The halo surrounding his head indicates sainthood in the Orthodox Church. Many books do not list him among the saints, but he was canonized around the year 700. http://www.goarch.org/en/chapel/saints.asp?contentid=101 You'll see a reference to him as such near the bottom.Will 05:31, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

The nimbus or halo was a Late Antique convention to indicate sanctity, it probably derived from sun-worship, it was later adopted by the Christian Church. It was used in depictions of pagan Roman emperors (including Licinius) and gods, a surviving frontal image of Jupiter has a nimbus. The image of Justinian in San Vitale with the nimbus was executed during Justinians lifetime. Urselius 20:05, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
That page indicates that Justinian was healed by a saint but it didn't indicate that Justinian was thought to be a saint. I don't think that paintings showing him with a halo really suggest more than the opinion of the painter or the painter's sponsor —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.52.215.67 (talk) 02:10, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Orthodox Wiki certainly lists him as St. Justinian: http://orthodoxwiki.org/Justinian. That's not a sufficient source by itself if this is really contested. Orthodox iconographic tradition does not tolerate individual painters making up who is a saint, btw. That nimbus means a lot more than just one painter's opinion. Tb (talk) 03:19, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Yes, but as is said above, it is an iconographical convention to express Byzantine ideas on the sanctity of Roman emperorship, not as much of the person. Every emperor was depicted with a nimbus around his head during his lifetime, including historically impopular ones such as Romanus IV Diogenes or Alexios IV Angelos. I wouldn't draw conclusions about the saintly status of an individual emperor based on the use of the nimbus alone. Iblardi (talk) 18:36, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
I agree in general, though it's going to depend on the particular person. In this case, there isn't any doubt. Tb (talk) 22:19, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Nope, no doubt at all. Go here: http://www.goarch.org/en/chapel/search.asp and search Justinian. You will find a listing, complete with feast day on Oct. 14th. This is the official site of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, and I'm pretty sure they're not in the habit of posting listings about saints that aren't actually venerated. Really not surprising that he's a saint, considering how rigorously he upheld Orthodox doctrine. Peace! Themill, who can't be bothered to log in right now.

Then what about Theodora? The site mentions Justinian and Theodora as a couple, yet according to tradition she had monophysitic sympathies, which makes her orthodoxy much less obvious. Iblardi (talk) 20:55, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Name

It seems to me that Justinian's name contradicts the outlines given in the article on Roman naming conventions (as do, in fact, many names of Roman Emperors). Following those outlines he would have been called something like Flavius Iustinus Sabbatianus (assuming, that "Sabbatius" was his original nomen gentile). Why did he take another way and took his adopted father's name in the -ianus-form?194.166.222.215 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.166.222.215 (talk) 20:08, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I suspect that naming conventions had become blurred by Justinian's time. It would also be irrelevant to speak of 'Sabbatius' as a nomen gentile in Justinian's case, since his ancestors were not of ancient Roman stock but rather Romanized Illyrians. Iblardi (talk) 18:05, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Greek name

Ireland101, this is ridiculous, we are not claiming that Justinian himself was Greek, simply that his name in Greek is important to history. The majority of his empire was Greek, and he is a saint in the Orthodox Church. Greek is entirely relevant here. I apologize that this has absolutely nothing to do with Macedonia; no need to be offended this time. Adam Bishop (talk) 01:46, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I still do not understand what you mean. A majority of his empire was Greek? Last time I checked Greece is quite insignificant in the whole spectrum of Byzantium. I know he is a saint in the Orthodox church, did you know that there are 15 orthodox churches, only 1 being Greek. I do not know what you are getting at, the church was made by Constantine a Roman. Greeks make up a minority of Orthodox Christians just as Romanians and Serbians. The majority are Russian. Although it is unrelated to the dispute, it does have to do with Macedonia as Justinian was born in Macedonia, just as Nero was born in Rome. Ireland101 (talk) 02:38, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

(Why did I even bother? Sigh. Adam Bishop (talk) 03:50, 20 November 2007 (UTC))

Of course it makes sense to include Justinian's name in Greek. Almost all of our direct sources on him and his reign are in Greek; the culture and the unofficial language of his empire were Greek; all important literature during his reign was written in Greek; his later laws were issued in Greek. The only thing not Greek about Justinian is the man himself, a fact of which we are informed in the article. So yes, keep the Greek name. Iblardi (talk) 11:56, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
I could've thought Ireland would pop up here as well. Don't worry about the naming issue - he is keen on removing names in certain languages and adding such in irrelevant once to prove some odd point of his. Just a little comment - how could Greek be irrelevant for an empire whose official language is, let me see, yeah - Greek. --Laveol T 11:38, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Well the man himself was not Greek. If you demand that the Greek spelling of his name be placed because his laws were issued in Greek, then the Albanian spelling of his name has an equal right - if not more - to be displayed since he was Illyrian. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.97.98.37 (talk) 02:31, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't see why the fact that Justinian spoke Latin rather than Greek would be a reason to introduce the Albanian language. The point is that Justinian was primarily known by his Greek name to the majority of his subjects, including Procopius, who is the main literary source for his reign. Iblardi (talk) 22:12, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

By that argument, then, shouldn't Trajan, Hadrian, and Maximinus Thrax (whose only contemporary source is Herodian) all have the Greek versions of their names included? The point is, I think, that since he was Illyrian by ethnicity, then his Albanian name is appropriate (After all, even the L.O.C concludes that there is a relationship between Illyrians and Albanians). RAMerkel ([[User talk:: RAMerkel|talk]]) —Preceding comment was added at 16:31, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

There is also a relationship between Latin and Italian. That doesn't mean that Italian names should be included in every article dealing with classical figures. Iblardi (talk) 17:09, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

You are now going on a tangent, as well as picking and choosing specifics that fit your argument. So I will keep the discussion on Justinian. The issue here is that, by your own admission, because the majority of his empire may have called Justinian by the Greek version of his name and Procopius was a Greek historian writing about Justinian, the Greek version of his name is relevant. At the same time his ethnicity is completely irrelevant. This is by all accounts disingenuous. By your rationale a 3rd generation African-American should be referred to as American without any credence of his ethnicity. RAMerkel —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.80.177.72 (talk) 21:03, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

There is very little evidence to connect the modern Albanian language with any of the Illyrian languages. To suggest that Justinian was "Albanian" is ludicrous. --Tsourkpk (talk) 21:12, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

No, in fact there is substantial linguist evidence to connect the Albanian language with Illyrian. The notion is supported by storied linguists from Hans Krahe, Gottfried Leibniz, Norbert Jokl, WM Leake, and Paul Kretschmer, among others. More over, the article itself states that Justinian was a Latin-speaking Illyrian. To suggest otherwise, as you are, is ludicrous. Credence to his ethnicity is just as appropriate as the credence to the primary sources of information that we have about Justinian. To erase his ethnicity, as you are trying to do, is purely dishonest revisionism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by RAMerkel (talk • contribs) 03:52, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Nobody is trying to "erase his ethnicity"; the article is clear that he was from Illyria. The point is that this is an English encyclopedia, and the government he headed conducted its business in Latin and (ancient) Greek, and not in modern Albanian. Tb (talk) 04:11, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
The link between Albanian and Illyrian is the subject of current debate. The question is by no means settled, unless you are an Albanian nationalist. The "substantial linguist evidence" you speak is in fact not substantial at all and the linguists you mention are outdated. Our understanding of the ancient Balkans has changed considerably since then, and there are good reasons to believe Albanian is derived from an ancient language other than Illyrian. Please consult the articles on the Albanian language, Illyrian languages and Origin of Albanians before making drawing such conclusions. To suggest that Albanians and Illyrians are one and the same people is very imprudent. Moreover, Justinian was descended from Illyrians that had been thoroughly Romanized and spoke Latin as his native language, not "Albanian". That's why you won't find a single reliable source that calls Justinian "Albanian". Until you find a reliable, modern source that claims Justinian was "Albanian", there is no question of inserting his name in Albanian. Good luck. --Tsourkpk (talk) 05:22, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
I agree - even if it were 100% true and undisputed that Illyrian and Albanian are related and Albanians are descended from Illyrians, it is entirely irrelevant to someone who lived in the 6th century. Adam Bishop (talk) 06:24, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

In terms on the linguists I mentioned, modern linguistics is built on their work. Therefore by definition, they can't be outdated. Additionally, the articles you mention (and L.O.C itself) concede a relationship between Illyrian and Albanian. Also, to correct a misstatement of yours, Justinian was Illyrian, not merely "descended from Illyrians". The article on Justinian unequivocally states this. The fact that you are stating otherwise is dishonest revisionism.

By your very argument, Tsourkpk, there is no question of inserting his name in Greek, unless you can establish that Justinian was Greek - which I don't believe you are advocating. The point is if you are going to argue that inserting Justinian's name in Greek is relevant based on our primary source of information on him being in Greek - certainly you are not advocating that the majority of his empire was Greek- then inserting his name in the language that is most similar to the Illyrian language is equally as appropriate (and even more so). —Preceding unsigned comment added by RAMerkel (talk • contribs) 17:12, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

The reason to list the Greek is not because he was Greek, it's because his empire used Greek as its primary language, and all the primary sources are written in Greek. It has nothing to do with ethnicity. Tb (talk) 03:23, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] GA Pass

I am glad to report that this article nomination for good article status has been promoted. This is how the article, as of May 9, 2008, compares against the six good article criteria:

1. Well written?: Pass
2. Factually accurate?: Pass
3. Broad in coverage?: Pass
4. Neutral point of view?: Pass
5. Article stability? Pass
6. Images?: Pass

If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to take it to Good article reassessment. Thank you to all of the editors who worked hard to bring it to this status, and congratulations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Climie.ca (talk • contribs)