Talk:Justine Henin

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Justine Henin article.
Article policies
This article is within the scope of the following WikiProjects:
This article has been reviewed by the Version 1.0 Editorial Team.
Version 0.7
 This article has been selected for Version 0.7 and subsequent release versions of Wikipedia.

Contents

[edit] Biography assessment rating comment

WikiProject Biography Assessment

The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Yamara 20:39, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Photo Copyright Status

Can anyone verify the copyright for these photographs? - Texture 19:24, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I have replaced the image with a more recent one, taken by myself. --Windsok 16:39, 12 January 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Current Ranking/Results/etc. necessary?

I personally think they are unnecessary. It's very hard to keep this kind of sections up-to-date over a long period of time, and ultimately, this is an encyclopaedia article, not a 24/7 current news article. 128.151.226.112 09:32, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

To add to above, recent news and detailed match scores/rankings and other data that will become old within a matter of days can be seen on Justine's home site or WTA site. 128.151.226.112 09:55, 7 May 2005 (UTC)


I disagree. When a player is ranked 1st in the world, it's only right for this to be reported. Even if it does change, she's been there for months now. It gives justifiable credibility.

[edit] Injury?

Was her retirement really based off of an 'injury'. To me it sounds more like an upset stomach, hardly an injury. Her talk about her shoulder almost seemed like an afterthought. This is bound to be controversial.

  • Well, that's how it was recorded: retirement due to illness/injury. Wikipedia articles are supposed to be based on fact, not speculation. Noelle De Guzman 09:35, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
  • I don't know if you saw that match. Justine Henin looked very unwell before she decided to concede: she lost her balance a few times, was almost unable to serve and went from looking pale to almost green. In my opinion you can't expect an athlete to play a match when feeling really sick, which was obviously the case. Of course it's a pitty for the folks watching, but it would of been a pitty anyway. She was clearly unable to play at a WTA-level, let alone the level of a top 10 player. In the newspapers it was rumoured that her stomach couldn't cope with the large amount of painkillers she took because of her shoulder injury, I cannot prove this, but it would explain why her fitness fell so quickly.DVanDyck 08:56, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

What's the difference. What's she did was very unsportsmanlike.

  • That may be, but it isn't Wikipedia editors' place to write their own judgments about her here. No original research, neutral point of view is part of Wikipedia's Five Pillars. I think the language in the article is strong enough to connote that what she did was bad sportsmanship. Noelle De Guzman 00:42, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

If any player retires from a slam match, I always support the player. There is no way a player will retire from a slam final unless that player is really hurting. The opponent can get injured, or ill, or choke. Edberg retired from the AO in 1990, and Justine apparently was so sick she didn't want to play, but tieed anyway. With her health history, she was obviously very concerned and in pain. Why we should expect a player to put up with several games of intense pain when she has no chance to win the match is beyond me. That's an absurd burden to put on a player. Justine has gutted it out in so many matches, such as the Capriate 2003 USO semifinal, with severe cramps, that I'm certainly satisfied that she was really hurting, and her health is far more important than any odd desire to see a woman play in intense pain for serveral games. Amelie won the match. 69.221.9.247 02:06, 18 September 2007 (UTC)Bob

[edit] Tone, verify

This is a very, very long article with no references given. It is also filled with phrases such as "somehow found the strength...". I'd like to recommend a little less focus on expanding the article's year-by-year analysis and much more focus on writing a less gushing and more verifiable article. Jkelly 20:49, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Justine Henin-Hardenne

The first paragraph refers to her backhand as "marvellous" without citing a source. POV, perhaps? Eekyeesh 13:06, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Metric System

For most international athletes currently on Wikipedia, weight and height is in pounds and feet. Changing this to the metric system (with imperial system between brackets) would be more correct comprehensible for most readers. The metric system is after all the international convention whereas feet and inches are only used in the US. Has there been a previous debate about this?

Guideline is at Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)#Units of measurement. Piet 10:21, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Opening Paragraph

"Henin-Hardenne is well-remembered for her behaviour in the final of the 2006 Australian Open, when she retired against Amélie Mauresmo while trailing 1-6, 0-2."
Inclusion of this at the top summary feels non-NPOV, esp. without a reference. She's won multiple Grand Slam events - the fact she retired in the middle of Aussie Open this year is just one of many things she can be "well-remembered" for. Jxyama 22:48, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Recent matches" section

How important is this section really? Before being updated to include her French Open matches, the entries in this section were her Australian Open 2006 final loss. If this section is going to take into account her performance in the Grand Slam, then the performance timeline (not to mention the separate Grand Slam finals section, will provide a more complete account. In such a case, I don't see the importance of listing down in such a section her petty victory or loss in a first or second round of a tournament. Hence, how about removing this section? Joey80 05:39, 11 June 2006 (UTC)


I enjoy this section, and the entire article. There is an error in the score of her USO match against Venus however. She won the tie-break 7-2, not 7-4.70.226.26.137 00:45, 10 September 2007 (UTC)Bob

[edit] Pronunciation

In Belgium, French is one of the main languages.

I wonder if she can pronounce the Hs in her name.

Does the name Hardenne have any link to the Ardennes?

French is the native language in the southern half of Belgium, which Henin is from (She only speaks a bit of Dutch). The H's are not pronounced at all in French. I would say the name is not related to the Ardennes, but I'm not sure. Pronunciation however is exactly the same. Piet 10:17, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

The pronunciation apparently has been done by the same person who did Kim Clijsters'. He sounds as being from Limburg in Flanders, where Kim is also from. Although his pronunciation is perfect Dutch for Clijsters - except for the "r" which officially should be a rolling one but here is a French "r" as it is in the dialect of Limburg - he clearly mispronounces the "h" in "Hardenne"

I agree—and the "h" and "e" in "Henin" were equally mispronounced. I have replaced the audio file by a new one, with a pronunciation that should be more authentic. Chtikipedien 08:17, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

I have removed the sentence describing the pronunciation as hen plus schwa, as this is not true either in English or her native French. The correct IPA would be 'en' plus epsilon with a til over it - which I have tried dragging from the entry on French pronunciation, but to no avail. Rothorpe 18:54, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kim Clijsters links

For some reason, some of the Kim Clijsters links weren't linked to the article about Kim. Edited it.

[edit] Marked for Cleanup

I marked this page for cleanup. The grammar is sub-par, the wording is awkward, and there is a lot I think needs to be changed, like all the "found a way to win" and other phrases that make this article sound like it's about a comic book superhero. Henin-Hardenne is probably my favourite tennis player, but this article needs to be more neutral. I will work on this article in the coming weeks when I have time, but I thought I should mark it to encourage others to help. --Muéro 01:20, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

This article has improved quite a bit since it was tagged. How does everyone feel about removing the cleanup tag? --Muéro 02:56, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What losing the Wimbledon finals meant?

It doesn't just mean that she didn't claim a career Grand Slam, but a career Golden Slam, a more elite achievement. --Joey80 00:36, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually, she can't claim either if you're going to split hairs. Agrippina Minor 18:14, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Yes she can! Hasn't she won 7 of those???? :\ Do you know me?...then SHUT UP!!! Sarcasm is beauty 00:32, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Emphasis on 2006 Australian Open final

If I didn't know anything about Justine Henin, I would read this article and think her most famous for "her controversial doings on the WTA Tour, including her infamous defeat to Amelie Mauresmo in the 2006 Australian Open." This is simply not so. I don't think that mention of that episode is even worth one line of text here, much less a mention in the first paragraph. Mr Frosty 20:20, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I disagree, she came under serious fire for that, it was a major incident in her career. Not even mentioning would seem like trying to make her out to be as good of a person as possible.

The following part uses subjective reasoning and should be removed:

Henin-Hardenne's decision to give up, vaguely citing stomach pain but never fully explaining, was seen as extremely controversial. Henin-Hardenne was criticized because she said after her win against Sharapova in the previous round that she was at the "peak of her fitness" and was playing the "best tennis of her life." She was only the second player, and the first woman, to retire from a Grand Slam final in the Open Era.

Regardless of the fact that her retirement was dubious, it's impossible to know what happened. She is the only one who can tell the world if she had pain at that moment and we should give her the benefit of the doubt. What's more, there were no precedents and, in general, she is an introverted but open-minded person who says what she feels.

[edit] Serena Williams

There needs to be something about Henin cheating Serena in the '03 French Open. Everybody saw it. You can look it up on YouTube. It was despicable.

Do we have a link supporting the evidence that Henin raises her hand too late, when Williams was serving? JeDi 18:49, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Shouldn't we remove it? It seems unnecessary and totally out the blue. The paragraph seems biased to me. Sumhtun 06:59, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
I disagree. That is something that is significant, hence necessary. Serena Williams kept on talking about it after the match, and that claim, whether true or not, has worked against Henin-Hardenne's credibility. That was the reason why she refused to call a trainer in her US Open semi-final match against Jennifer Capriati, because she wanted to prove that she can win justly. So with respect to that, it is important and relevant. Joey80 14:02, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Why was that paragraph removed unilaterally. I think it should go in, and I'll link to evidence of it. I'll wait to see if there are any further comments before adding it. Agrippina Minor 22:58, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

That isn't correct. Henin didn't take an injury timeout because ESPN questioned her over a lie from Kim Clijsters after losing to Justine in the 2003 San Diego F "She always [takes injury timeouts] to me," which ESPN failed to acknowledge was a lie.


This is a total fabrication of the facts of that incident. No player in history, including Serena, has ever "dumped a ball into the net", and the rules don't provide for that. The reality is that Justine was ready to return serve, and Serena went up to serve the ball, then Justine raised her hand, which Serena saw after she served. Under the clear rules of tennis "raising your hand" means nothing. Once a player is "ready to return serve" (which means making eye contact with the other player), that player cannot become "unready", absent outside interference. The serve counted, in or out. Moreover, nobody has any idea what the conversation was between the umpire and Justine. The only people who could hear it were the fans near the court, and it was apparent they thought Justine was totally justified. The only proper question would be "Were you ready to return serve at any time before Serena started her motion?", and the only response would have been "yes". This nonsense that Justine "lied" to the umpire is not supported by anything whatsoever. If Serena saw her hand up, then why did she serve? If she didn't see her hand up, then the serve counted, since she wouldn't have started her service motion unless she saw Justine was ready. If anyone's sportsmanship needs to be examined, it's Serena's, not Justine's; and under the very clear rules of tennis, the serve counted, in or out. 69.221.1.92 18:00, 26 August 2007 (UTC)Bob

I agree. I can't find a source for Justine's conversation with the umpire. When did she deny raising her hand? Why would the umpire care? The author needs to cite his sources. I think I'll pare this section down in the meantime. Yano 21:11, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Agreed. Also, isn't the current section focusing a little too one-sidedly on what Justine did wrong? If Serena claims Justine's raised hand bothered her when she saw it, why did she continue her serve anyway? I agree that Justine was a little dishonest, but so was Serena - you can't claim to see your opponent's objection, ignore it and serve anyway, and then ask for a new serve when it doesn't work out for you. Maybe it should say something like: "At one point during the semi-final, Henin raised her hand during her opponent's service, but Williams continued her serve and faulted. Williams then asked the umpire for another first serve, claiming that she saw the gesture and was bothered by it, but the fault was none the less upheld." I think this would reflect the reality better, and show that both players were a little in the wrong here. 81.240.169.113 09:07, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the input. I've removed the line about Serena accusing Justine of cheating in the meantime. Unless someone can find a cited source that properly clears Justine of wrongdoing within the rules of tennis, the accusation of cheating, by itself, leaves the question of sportsmanship unfairly open. Personally, however, I would prefer to leave this episode in its current low-key depiction, as it doesn't deserve much mention. -- Yano 03:58, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if Justine was dishonest or not, since we don't know what the conversation between her and the umpire was. If the umpire asked her if she raised her hand, that would be an inappropriate question to ask, since it's irrelevant whether she raised her hand or not. Presumably she hadn't raised her hand when Serena looked at her and then looked up to serve, since otherwise Serena wouldn't have started her service motion. I've never seen any player in the history of tennis serve when she saw the other person's hand up. Since the rules don't permit the returner to become "unready", once you are ready (even if you notice a broken string), the serve counted, just as Sharapova's did in this year's 2007 FO match against Schnyder (who put her hand up as Maria was starting her motion). The rules don't mention "raising your hand". They define "ready to return" as making eye contact with the server for a couple of seconds. Raising one's hand is more of asking for the courtesy of a couple of seconds than a rule of tennis. The unpire's questions should actually have been directed at Serena, rather than Justine. He should have asked Serena if Justine appeared to be ready when Serena started her service motion. If the answer was yes, then there would be no need to ask any questions of Justine. If the answer was no, then the next question would be "Then why did you serve the ball?" The focus was on the wrong person. 69.214.158.88 03:41, 14 September 2007 (UTC)Bob

[edit] 2001 Federation cup?

Didn't she win the 2001 Federation cup with Belgium? Shouldn't that be noted in the article somewhere?

[edit] Infobox picture

I changed the infobox picture back to Image:Justine henin hardenne medibank international 2006.jpg. The picture there before (Image:JustineHenin-Hardenne-6-4-05.jpg) was listed as copyrighted free use, but there wasn't any source info, and it looks like a downsized version of a wire service photo. GrahameS 01:44, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Olympic games in performance timeline

Why where isn't any line for Olympic Games in that timeline? Are they too insignificant for wta?

[edit] Overall win/loss in 2006

Here we have 58-8 while in official her site is stated 56-8? Why the numbers are different? —the preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.238.64.156 (talk) 20:29, 7 April 2007 (UTC).

In 2006, Henin played 68 matches, this includes 4 Fed Cup matches. Her win/loss is 60-8 including the Fed Cup matches and 56-8 excluding them. I have no idea where the 58-8 comes from. (This can be easily checked on the WTA site)

[edit] Family life

I think that the facts about her family life are a bit mixed up, it would be necessary to make a logical order. I wanted to take the paragraph about her mother to the beginning, because in the next paragraph her mother dies, but the story about the Roland Garros is not the best to start her personal life with. The first paragraph also mentions her divorce (and its consequences regarding her family), but the following paragraph is started with the story of her marriage... Something general should be mentioned about her as an introduction, for example something about her childhood. Pumukli

I'd say go for it, I agree JH-man 22:41, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I have an alternative version for this section, but it would be better if you checked the grammar before inserting it, because I'm not English.

Justine Henin was born on June 1, 1982. Her father is José Henin, her mother, Françoise Rosière, was a French and history teacher, who died when Justine was 12 years old. She has two brothers (David and Thomas), and a sister (Sarah). She also had an elder sister who died in a car accident before Justine was born.

At the age of 2 her family moved to Rochefort, where their house was situated only a few meters away from the local tennis club where she played tennis for the first time in her life. At the age of six Henin joined Tennis Club Ciney. Her coaches discovered her talent immediately. As a child Henin outclassed the other children in training sessions, and she was very ambitious. Her mother routinely took the young Henin across the border to France to watch the French Open.[1] Henin saw the 1992 final involving her idol Steffi Graf and Monica Seles. Although Graf lost, the experience impressed Henin, who apparently told her mother, "One day I will play here and I will win."

In 1995, shortly after her mother’s death Henin met Carlos Rodriguez, who has become her trainer, and plays an important role in Henin’s life as a second father, all the more so since she was in conflict with her biological father, José Henin.

On November 16, 2002, Henin married Pierre-Yves Hardenne in the Château de Lavaux-Sainte-Anne.[2][3] She used the name Justine Henin-Hardenne on the tennis court from January 2003 through December 2006. However, on January 4, 2007, just after withdrawing from upcoming tournaments in Australia, including the Australian Open, various news agencies reported that she intended to divorce her husband and assume her maiden name, "Justine Henin." [4] She has since confirmed on her official website that she has separated from her husband.[5] [6]. She has since confirmed on her official website that she has separated from her husband. The divorce had positive consequences as well, as Henin made contact again with her close family with whom she had been on bad terms for many years.

What do you think about it? Pumukli 16:21, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, I'm not English myself! :D It does look better already. There's one sentence that I would split because it's too long. And maybe add a little more detail:
"In 1995, shortly after her mother’s death, Henin met her current (2007) and thus far only coach Carlos Rodriguez. Because of a conflict with her biological father, due to different ideas about her tennis career and relationship with Pierre-Yves, Rodriguez soon not only became her trainer but also a second father figure."
I would also write "...their house was situated right next to the local tennis club.."
I would then also change the final sentence:
"The divorce in early 2007, and a serious car accident of her oldest brother, helped to clear the path for Justine to make contact again with her close family (which she communicated very openly in the local press). During the 2007 French Open, her brothers and sisters attended her matches for the first time in her professional career."
You also have the second-to-last sentence in double  :) JH-man 10:49, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
Well then somebody may correct the mistakes later :)
I used your suggestions below, I hope its okay now:

Justine Henin was born on June 1, 1982. Her father is José Henin, her mother, Françoise Rosière, was a French and history teacher, who died when Justine was 12 years old. She has two brothers (David and Thomas), and a sister (Sarah). She also had an elder sister who died in a car accident before Justine was born.

At the age of 2 her family moved to Rochefort, where their house was situated right next to the local tennis club where she played tennis for the first time in her life. At the age of six Henin joined Tennis Club Ciney. Her coaches discovered her talent immediately. As a child Henin outclassed the other children in training sessions, and she was very ambitious. Her mother routinely took the young Henin across the border to France to watch the French Open.[7] Henin saw the 1992 final involving her idol Steffi Graf and Monica Seles. Although Graf lost, the experience impressed Henin, who apparently told her mother, "One day I will play here and I will win."

In 1995, shortly after her mother’s death Henin met her current (2007) and thus far only coach Carlos Rodriguez. Because of a conflict with her biological father, due to different ideas about her tennis career and her relationship with Pierre-Yves Hardenne, Rodriguez soon became not only her trainer but also a second father figure.

On November 16, 2002, Henin married Pierre-Yves in the Château de Lavaux-Sainte-Anne.[8][9] However, on January 4, 2007, Henin withdrew from the upcoming tournaments in Australia, including the Australian Open, due to personal problems. Various news agencies reported that she intended to divorce. She has since confirmed on her official website that she has separated from her husband and she also assumed her maiden name, Justine Henin instead of Justine Henin-Hardenne. [10] She has since confirmed on her official website that she has separated from her husband.[11] [12]. Her divorce and a serious car accident of her eldest brother helped to clear the path for Justine to make contact again with her close family (which she communicated very openly in the local press). During the 2007 French Open, her brothers and sisters attended her matches for the first time in her professional career.

I put this last version (with some small changes in wordings) into the article. JH-man 10:43, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Martina Navratilova: "Female version of Roger Federer"

I'm tempted to add the above statement made on the US OPEN 2007 in the commentary booth to "Playing Style". Any counter-arguments or comments? Does anybody know how to cite a statement from such a source? DVanDyck 20:11, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Justine also has the fastest second serve in tennis by an appreciable margin. I've not compiled the actual averages, but do pay attention to statistics generally in the slams, and she's the only woman who usually averages 90 mph+ on her second serve. 69.214.158.88 03:26, 14 September 2007 (UTC)Bob

[edit] Trivia

The section contained the suggestion that JH recycles batteries, albeit worded in an unusual manner - I would have thought "Henin recycles her used batteries" and a reference would be more appropriate wording. In addition, there's a comment about her eating danettes two at a time, again with no reference. I can't find any reference to any food product with the name of danette.

Therefore I've reverted the anonymous edit that introduced the section.

DMcMPO11AAUK 09:25, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Deletes

I deleted some information which I think was a bit too off-topic and made the article lose focus. Please discuss if somebody disagrees JH-man 07:33, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 2007 WTA Tour Championships and 2007 Zurich Open court surfaces

As per the WTA website (see Henin's activity page), the court surface for these two tournaments was Indoor Carpet, not Indoor Hard. Please take the time to edit the surface win-loss record not just on this page, but on the pages of other players who participated in the events. Thanks. Joey80 (talk) 09:55, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Notable matches

There's a problem with the make-up of the header and first paragraph here that only seems to appear when the whole page is displayed (all is fine when only that particular section is edited and previewed). Someone more technically knowledgable should take a look... JH-man (talk) 15:41, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 6-0 6-0 vs. Bartoli: notable match or not?

Ok, so let me start by agreeing that this is of course all arbitrary, but let me defend this one.

Henin is known for routinely losing concentration against opponents who don't offer much opposition. That's what I meant with "choking": not necessarilly losing the match, but failing to uphold her high level for the entire match, having a sudden dip for no obvious reasons. The end of the second set in her recent match against nobody Su-Wei in the 4th round was another example of this, but it is very common. When she has been dominating the first set, she often seems to let go for a couple of games. So this is a reason why she has much less 6-0 6-0 matches than one would expect when watching her play at her best against lesser opponents. It really catches the eye that she didn't let this happen here, especially since it was not that terribly important (unnecessary last group game). It catches the eye even more, because Bartoli could hardly be called a "lesser" player. If you want to bagel her, you'll have to try harder than against the #150. So to understand what's going on here, you have to stand back and look at the context. And that context is revenge (because Bartoli beat her so unexpectedly and traumatically) combined with fear for letting it slip away again in the second set (like she did in the last match she lost many months ago), and combined with the drive to extend her winning streak. Putting an end to the winning streak would have been the only practical consequence of a loss, anyway.

I think all of this combines to make this a notable match. It tells something about her character, her game and about the most important events of her 2007 annus mirabilis.

JH-man (talk) 10:21, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

More than a week and noone objects. It seems I was convincing, so I put it back in.  :) JH-man (talk) 09:06, 1 February 2008 (UTC)