Talk:July 20 plot
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[edit] Some thoughts
I have always read that it was Goebbles that took charge and that Himmler was out of the picture for a few crucial hours. Goebbles is apprently on record as expressing distrust of the Reichsfuhrer that night and was the one that was able to convince Major Remer who had been sent to arrest him that Hitler was alive, with Hitler's help. Goebbles had a direct line to Hitler and was able to get him on the phone. Hitler promoted Remer to Colonel on the spot, commanded him to crush the uprising and only to obey the orders of Goebbles, Himmler and General Reinecke. Also read that although the conspirators thought Hitler was dead before Stauffenberg left East Prussia (he phoned Berlin before he left Hitler's HQ) they delayed doing anything till he was back in Berlin and finally that Fromm didn't go to Goebbles right away, it was Speer and Major Remer that came to the Bendlerblock and learned that Fromm had shot the ringleaders. Only after that did Fromm ask to be taken to Goebbles so he could call Hitler and clear his name. Goebbles had him placed undr arrest and it was at that time Himmler finally arrived on the scene and in his capacity as Commander-in-Chief of the Reserve Army gave the order to stop any further summary executions. It's total speculation but I feel Himmler held back to make sure which way the wind was going to blow. It does make sense. Two books that i can recall off the top of my head with detailed accounts are Inside the Third Reich by Speer and The Devil's Disciples by Anthony Read.
One last point..Kinneyboy90 is right. It was just shy of 5000 who perished in the aftermath of the plot and the executions continued right to the end of the war --Jringer 1:34 am EST
I don't know if there's any reliable information available on why Stauffenberg did not deliver the bomb in a reliable fashion, eg. by activating it manually. I think that is a very critical point here and I'm missing it.
Should he had unpack it with only his 3 remaining fingers of his one hand? In front of hitler and his associates? LOL
Actually the Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by William Shirer has this incident in detail: how he activated the bomb and why it failed to kill Hitler at the critical moment and why the whole plot failed due to lack of co-ordination among the chief conspirators -- Harishan
[edit] I just saw the Bonhoeffer Documentary
I was wondering if anyone has any information on moles within the plots to kill Hitler. An earlier attempt to kill him failed because the bomb didn't go off
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- Little or no evidence of informers. AH was rather shocked that such a wide swath of people had come so close to getting rid of him, which is one reason he had 5000 people killed, including a huge proportion of the German aristocracy. Wyss 15:22, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Motivation
What, if any, information exists concerning the motives of the conspirators. Was this a power grab, or was it truly a the culmination of a resistance movement? Was it a reaction to a particular act or policy, or a more general protest against Hitler's policy? Did the conspirators only hope to topple Hitler, or did they mean to remove the Nazis from power entirely? --djrobgordon 11:24, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
- Given the fact that there were conspiracies stretching back into the 1930s, and that dozens of conspirators worked in different groupings over the years, I think there isn't one simple answer. My impression (based on more than the article) is that for some, honor was all, for others there was a virulent distaste for Nazism, and for still others they simply feared the cliff that Germany was driving toward. It's probably correct to imagine that had they been united ideologically, they would have made more effective attempts much earlier than they did. --Dhartung | Talk 01:35, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] 200 executed?
200 executed? Come on, Hitler had over 4,900 executed, so reports Shirer and several other sources. I think Kershaw was either incorrect, or I'm missing something. Could someone please clear this up. Aaрон Кинни (t) 05:08, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] War Unwinnable?
"It is possible that Himmler, who by late 1943 knew that the war was unwinnable..." I'd like to see a source for that statement. 80.169.138.156 09:35, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Operation Walküre
Why does Operation Walküre redirect *back* to the July 20 Plot page?? From what I can tell, it was a separate contingency plan that had nothing to do with the July 20 Plot.--Davidwiz 20:49, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Yes that's true. It should have its own article. Adam 10:32, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
- Noting that Operation Walküre still redirects back to here. Mathmo Talk 00:27, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Maybe this bit should be removed?
"In retrospect, it is surprising that these months of plotting by the resistance groups in the Army and the state apparatus, in which dozens of people were involved and of which many more, including very senior Army officers, were aware, apparently totally escaped the attention of the Gestapo. In fact the Gestapo had known since February 1943 of both the Abwehr resistance group under the patronage of Admiral Wilhelm Canaris and of the civilian resistance circle around former Leipzig mayor Carl Goerdeler. If all these people had been arrested and interrogated, the Gestapo might well have uncovered the group based in Army Group Centre as well and the July 20 assassination attempt would never have happened. This raises the possibility that Himmler knew about the plot and, for reasons of his own, allowed it to go ahead. Himmler had at least one conversation with a known oppositionist when, in August 1943, the Prussian Finance Minister Johannes Popitz, who was involved in Goerdeler's network, came to see him and offered him the support of the opposition if he would make a move to displace Hitler and secure a negotiated end to the war.[2] Nothing came of this meeting, but Popitz was not arrested and Himmler apparently did nothing to track down the resistance network which he knew was operating within the state bureaucracy. It is possible that Himmler, who by late 1943 knew that the war was unwinnable, allowed the July 20 plot to go ahead in the knowledge that if it succeeded he would be Hitler's successor, and could then bring about a peace settlement. Popitz was not alone in seeing in Himmler a potential ally. General von Bock advised Tresckow to seek his support, but there is no evidence that he did so. Goerdeler was apparently also in indirect contact with Himmler via a mutual acquaintance Carl Langbehn. Canaris's biographer Heinz Höhne suggests that Canaris and Himmler were working together to bring about a change of regime. All of this remains speculation.[3]"
All of this is pure conjecture. Let's stick to what we know is true, OK?
[edit] Speculation in July 20 Plot
In the July 20 Plot article, these two lines are unsourced, and pure speculation.
"Conspirators who had long resisted the idea of killing Hitler on moral grounds now changed their minds—partly because they were hearing reports of the mass murder at Auschwitz of up to 250,000 Hungarian Jews, the culmination of the Nazi Holocaust."
This is unsourced, because it can't be sourced. Since the end of the war not a single Third Reich document has ever actually been discovered mentioning the supposed events known as the Holocaust. It doesn't even provide names, simply "conspirators", there are no dates and/or links to any proof of these "reports" even if they are true or exist.
The above is not a strong objection. The holocaust is not "supposed," it is a fact. Millions of people were killed and we all know that. There are films. mass graves, and other direct pieces of evidence. Further, the Germans knew about the holocaust for the simple reason that the germans committed the holocaust. You can't run that many trains and have that level of operation without it being known by thousands of people. The above unsigned comment smells of holocaust denial. Of course this was part of the reason some Germans wanted to kill Hitler. You don't need to cite that the sky is blue. (Dustin)97.99.105.137 18:13, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Program
What was the program of the group? Borders (1914 ones in Poland), punishment of Nazi criminals, reparations? Xx236 12:32, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Piano wire myth
They were hanged using thin, possibly hemp, nooses tied in slip knots, from iron hooks attached to an overhead steel beam. The beam and some hooks are still in place today. The "piano wire noose" is a myth. Piano wire would cut the neck.90.241.129.175 21:12, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
It's possible you're right, but I doubt the rope hung there today was left from the actual execution. It's not as thought he Nazis would make a memorial out of a military building to honor those trying to stop Nazism. Piano Wire makes for a poor display. It's hard to see and it probably moves around. Rope gets the point across at the memorial. And yeah, piano wire cuts the neck - that was the point. The piano wire claim is cited to research and witness statements in the wiki. Unless you have more, I think it should stay in place. 97.99.105.137 18:17, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Is there any real evidence substantiating details of this entire thing? In particular, is it really known that Hitler watched it over and over? I am not saying he didn't, but is just the sort of thing propagandists would come up with.--Jrm2007 09:10, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
According to Gitta Sereny's book "Albert Speer- his battle with truth", the story about Hitler watching the filmed executions over and over again is a myth. Speer says in Sereny's book that this myth comes from an missunderstanding in a interview with Speer in Playboy Magazine from 1971. To Sereny Speer claims that: "As far as I know, Hitler never watched the film, and that's something I always said. It wasn't in his nature to do something like that. And I doubt he watched the photographs more than I did." Speer's view is later verified by von Below: "He [Hitler] closed his eyes when forced to see the consequences of his orders." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.231.203.141 (talk) 14:22, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Paragraph on goals and vision of Germany post-Hitler
-- A paragraph on goals and vision of Germany post-Hitler would be welcomed as well as historical assesment of political ideology the plotters subscribed to.--Molobo 15:35, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
To anyone who might write this: Eichmann in Jerusalem by Hannah Arendt pretty much said that the conspirators were still Nazi's at heart but could see that Germany was losing the war.
So they pretty much wanted to topple the present dictator and replace him with a more amicable Nazi. The new government then would look to the US and the UK to draw up the terms for surrender, that is without having to deal with Russia. --24.2.158.114 10:26, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Second bomb?
In the Alternative possibilities section there is mention of 'the second bomb', however multiple explosive devices aren't mentioned anywhere else. What's the story behind this, assuming of course it's a sourced fact in the first place? -- MiG (talk) 14:00, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
