Talk:Juggalo

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This article was nominated for deletion on 17 March 2006. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

This article was nominated for deletion on February 6, 2008. The result of the discussion was Keep.

Contents 1 Critical Info 2 Merge Proposal 3 Vandalism 4 Violent Juggalos 4.1 Removed claim 4.2 Dead Links 4.3 Citation Needed 5 Everything2 6 Juggalo Radio 7 Gah. 8 OR and Citation Needed 9 POV? 10 radio show 11 Planning for the Eighth Annual Gathering 12 "Whoop, whoop, Juggalo!" 13 picture 14 Alleged Juggalo Crime section cites 15 Cleanup 16 The Dark Carnival Mythology 17 Userbox 18 Psychopathic Records Wikiproject 19 More Content 20 Names

[edit] Critical Info

Has there been any academic/media attempt to understand Juggalo's or the subculture? Linking to that would provide some insight into the culture, as well as add legitimacy to the wikipedia page. I'm sure someone has dealt with it... maybe the Phoenix News piece (Confessions of an Ex-Juggolo): http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2007-05-10/music/confessions-of-an-ex-juggalo/

I think most of the people posting here have no idea what the hell they are talking about. There are violent people in every race, color, size, shape, and form. I have been a JUGGALO since the early 90's. It does not mean that I go and act out the shit I heard in the songs. The people stated above are simply just fucking nutballs. The same thing was done to every strange music icons from BLACK SABBITH putting subliminal messages in thier music to Elvis being lude for dancing the way he did. It's very easy to talk trash when your on the out side looking in. Your opinions are predujice, biase, and simple minded. This is being written by a successful juggalo that has a wife, children, and a respectable career. Furthermore, anyone who states that the music they listen to has affected their actions, is apparently a MENTAL MIDGET and is in need of a high dose of zan-x. M.C.L.--JUGGALO-X

[edit] Merge Proposal

Oppose. Merge has been proposed with no prior discussion and no statement of what the reasoning behind it is. Juggalo article also refers to an annual music festival which involves multiple Psychopathic recording artists, not just ICP. Juggalo subculture continues to receive media attention independant of ICP, particularly issues regarding self-proclaimed Juggalos and gang violence. ICP article is already large and fairly cluttered, and both articles would suffer from the merge.--Rosicrucian 00:17, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Oppose per Rosicrucian. Kasreyn 23:15, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Oppose, however i strongly feel this page needs a second look at.The juggsd86 16:30, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Agree- I don't think the fans of ANY band are significant enough to even merit an entry at all. Merge any relevant information to a new "Fans" section on ICP's article, and get this out of here.

Oppose, the Juggalo subculture is not merely an ICP fanbase. However, this page definitely requires attention. It bears a fairly heavy bias against the Juggalo subculture. Page needs informaion about the link between the Dark Carnival mythology and Judeo-Christian ethic. Psychopathic artsist use subliminal messaging, irony, and sometimes outright preaching in lyrics to push humantarianism and loyalty to a supreme power. 68.157.193.253 18:03, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Agree, theres other bands with fan-classes that don't have their own pages... ^{Erryday I'm} 18:48, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

What i have to say is. i am a juggalette. Being a juggalo accepts you to a family. in that family people would take a bullet for you. people love and accept you for who you are, no one is judgmental. Juggalos really caare about things that you bitches dont give a shit about.

[edit] Vandalism

Why this article is such a lightning rod for vandalism I'll never know. The anonymous IPs I sort of expect, but ordinary registered users, who arguably ought to know better, seem prone to it too.--Rosicrucian 19:51, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

It's almost as if they think we wouldn't extend equal protection from vandalism to such an "unimportant" issue! I for one treat all vandalism I see the same. My guess as to its frequency is pop teen culture, where identifying oneself with a band or group is seen as sufficient excuse to mock or attack others. Most of the vandalism I've seen to ICP related articles has been very sophomoric in tone, supporting this theory. It's just kids being kids. Kasreyn 20:53, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

pssst... they vandalize it because it is ridiculous to have an encyclopedia entry for a group of fans of a specific band. I don't find a Boy George Fan Club entry anywhere on Wiki. Why these guys? Is it because they imitate the artist that they like? Been done before. Many times. Is it because their counter-culture has been linked to violence? The same could be said for fans of other specific artists. They all had silly names for their group, as well. To me, there is nothing distinctive or spectacular about a person who dresses up like a musician that they like. Their demand for noteworthiness does not make them noteworthy. This sort of entry invites vandalism because it covers a topic that is not the forte or intent of Wikipedia. - Forridean 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I would like to comment on the recent reversion due to "vandalism to last revision by The Juggler." I believe this accusation is in error because there was no change made to the article by this reversion. The changes that I made to the article was a re-wording of certain phrases in the "Alleged Juggalo Crime" section that were either not in an encyclopedic tone or poorly and vaguely worded. The Juggler 20:34, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Violent Juggalos

I've created a new section for the issue of Juggalo-related gang violence. This is not some sort of invitation to go out and find every news article you can find on Juggalos behaving badly. I've also added a link to the Jacob Robida incident. Kasreyn 19:34, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm working to improve the section. Thanks to Rosicrucian for your help! Editors should note that:

• The section title indicates that all these incidents are only allegedly involving Juggalos, and therefore there is no reason to repeat "alleged Juggalos" within the specific incidents;
• Date of the most recent attacks was erroneously reported as "week of July 14th"; this was the dateline of the news report, but the attacks are said to have occurred on the nights of June 19th and 20th.
• The attackers are self-proclaimed Juggalos. It would be inappropriate for Wikipedia to conclude that they are Juggalos, not to mention POV. This has been noted.
• Added information on seven suspects arrested, three charged with assault and robbery. I don't think we need any more detail at this time until there are further developments.
• "Allegedly attacked, robbed," etc. "Alleged" wasn't needed here; no one disputes that the attacks occurred. What is a matter of uncertainty is the identity of the attackers.

I'd also just like to point out that I'm a little disappointed in the AP's and Reuters's coverage. The AP story, run in the Seattle link but most likely a News-Tribune feed, seems to demonstrate bias against ICP (they go out of their way to pick two of the band's darkest album titles, in an attempt to show the reader only the negative side of ICP), not to mention their unnecessary and inaccurate report on Robida (they claim Robida had no anti-gay material on his website, but he had Nazi material on his website, and anyone who has studied Nazism knows that they hated gays). They claim that Robida's homepage was full of ICP references but neglect to mention the Neo-Nazi references; I can only conclude that they are leaving some information out in order to lead the reader to believe that ICP alone, rather than Nazism, motivated Robida's actions. If AP were truly unbiased, they would mention both the Nazi references and the ICP references and leave it to the reader to figure out which was his motivation. Disappointing, AP.

I'll continue to work on the section but I'd love it if we could find a more accurate (and more neutral) source than that. Kasreyn 00:26, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Robida has been a subject of a fair amount of debate on this talkpage. Check the archive link if you want to get a sense of how much conflict there has been on how to present him here, if at all.--Rosicrucian 16:18, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I can understand why there's a lot of concern over his inclusion... somehow the idiot (Robida) didn't notice all the times ICP rapped about bigotry being an evil thing. So I can certainly see that Juggalos are very concerned to have it be known that they reject Robida's claim to being one. But the thing is, readers are likely to have heard something about it, possibly from one of the biased sources I cite above, and they may come here looking for information. We can either say nothing, and readers can go on mistakenly believing that ICP was the only factor behind Robida's actions, or we can include info on him to point out to the readers the likelihood that Nazism was a much greater influence on his actions. I'd say we should include it, because we clearly can't trust the mainstream media to give ICP a fair shake. Kasreyn 21:25, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough, though given that he has his own article, simply linking to it with a brief summary and working to improve his article may be the better course of action.--Rosicrucian 23:53, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

"The attackers are self-proclaimed Juggalos. It would be inappropriate for Wikipedia to conclude that they are Juggalos, not to mention POV. This has been noted."

Interesting. So who decides who is a real juggalo and who isn't? Is a self-proclaimed juggalo not a real juggalo if he makes the others look bad in the press? I had never heard of juggalos before today, but today I learned that juggalos are identified as a "known crminal gang" by the Salt Lake City Gang Task Force; it seems to me there must be something to it for them to make such a designation. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 157.127.124.15 (talk) 22:36, 7 May 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Removed claim

I've just removed the following from the article:

• Sunnyvale, CA July 21 2006, Juggalo gang deals drugs, robs and stalks users. [[1]]

First off, the writeup is not NPOV. There are claims that an alleged Juggalo gang deals drugs, robs, and stalks users. Wikipedia is not a crystal ball.

Additionally, the linked source seems rather... bizarre... to say the least. It claims a lot more than the Wikipedia write-up suggests. Here's its headline:

• HEADLINE: NEO-NAZI JUGGALO CULT-GANG IN SUNNYVALE

Under which are such examples of journalistic integrity and adherence to the unvarnished truth as:

• "Anti-Gay Juggalo Gangs and the Sunnyvale Police are about to kill a man."
• "a Juggalo cult-gang"
• "juggalos" – self-proclaimed Neo-Nazi skinheads"

In general, the blog article is an attempt to push the case of this guy, who claims that he is being stalked, harassed, and threatened and that the Sunnyvale police refuse to protect him. However, WP:RS instructs us that blogs and personal websites are not to be considered reliable sources.

Unless a less biased and more reliable source is found, and a more NPOV writeup is adopted, this material should remain out of the article. Kasreyn 23:20, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I would like to mention that the current state of the Alleged Juggalo Crimes section is very well done. I have criticized it in the past for containing unreferenced claims and inflammatory remarks, but the current categorization of Juggalo as its own article and the current alleged crimes all having reputable references is acceptable. I should also mention that the word "alleged" should be used when mentioning any crime and it is important to include reactions and official statements from the artists and record company. The Juggler 02:33, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dead Links

Some of the news stories linked to have since had the news stories taken down, so I've removed the links. Remember that local news sites often will not archive their news, so news links need to be checked periodically to make sure they still work.--Rosicrucian 15:17, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. The most frustrating example is ICP's press statement on the Robida affair, which I can no longer find in their website's archive. And it appears from Google that not a single other organization or news service bothered to report on the statement or quote the band. (Just another sad example of how ICP's side of things is never discussed in the mainstream media.) Wikipedia provides the only hits for the quote. So, it would appear to an impartial, new editor to these pages that there is no way to know if the quote is for real. Can you help me by looking through ICP's website archives and trying to find a live link to the statement? Because if it's really gone, the only remaining solution would be to email the webmaster and ask that he create a special page to host the statement. Kasreyn 19:30, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I found a Village Voice article that quotes it, and have fixed the link on Robida's article.--Rosicrucian 21:49, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Hmm. Notice that in that same article, a reference to another Village Voice writer's "wiki roundup" says that this article makes no mention of Juggalo violence, and accuses us of a whitewash. Note that now, we do indeed have a section on Juggalo violence, so we've definitely improved! This should be considered not only a source for the ICP statement on Robida, but as definite proof that the section on Juggalo violence should be retained: it is what readers are wanting information about when they come to this article. Kasreyn 05:38, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Citation Needed

Four of the "Alleged Juggalo Crime" entries have not been cited from any reliable source, does this not damage the POV of this article? These claims could be firsthand reports, word-of-mouth rumors, or even outright lies for all we know. These claims should be presented in some article if they can be cited as being true and documented cases, but otherwise I believe they should be removed from the article. I would not take the liberty of removing these claims myself, nor should any other user; this issue should be discussed here before action should be taken. The Juggler 23:54, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Everything2

Everything2 is not a valid source to cite. It is not a reference work, and does not seek to be. In the future, do not cite it within a Wikipedia article.--Rosicrucian 04:10, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Juggalo Radio

Wikipedia articles are not appropriate places to plug internet radio stations, regardless of whether they are related to the article at hand.--Rosicrucian 14:50, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

And it seems it just gets added back in.--Rosicrucian 17:30, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I've made a broad sweep of the articles for all the Psychopathic Records artists, and it seems the same link [2] was spammed across nearly all of them. I've removed what I could, but it seems an anonymous IP, likely the site owner, is already reverting my edits.--Rosicrucian 17:46, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gah.

Typos in my edit summaries make me sad. Oh well. I should have mentioned in that edit summary that I also tweaked the violent incidents header to something less unwieldy, but hopefully no less accurate.--Rosicrucian 04:46, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] OR and Citation Needed

Oh for crying out loud, let's not riddle the whole article with OR tags. Citation Needed tags are much less obtrusive, and we can put the OR tag at the top if it's that extensive.--Rosicrucian 00:14, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV?

I'm kinda new but this seems like POV in its most blatant sense.

The juggalo family overlooks race, size and class and combines to make one of the most wicked families in existance.

Mainly the most wicked part if your slow.

It probably should be this:

The juggalo family overlooks race, size and class and combines to make one of the most loyal and welcoming families in existance.

The term 'Wicked' is a way to describe it on your own grounds, but not on a wikipedia article.The juggsd86 16:34, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it should read: Juggalo's claim to overlook race, size and class and combines to make one of the most loyal and welcoming families in existance. Fyrre 02:57, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

good call.The juggsd86 19:23, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually, not to nitpick, but I don't think it should say anything on the subject unless there's a source to back it up. If someone happens to know a source that states it, even a website with some measure of credibility, then I agree. 71.217.160.111 08:45, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I AM A JUGGALO...IT IS ABOUT FAMILY.....WE ARE ONE BODY..ONE FLESH...THICKER THAN CEMENT...ITS NOT A GANG...NOT A MAFIA..IT IS A FAMILY, A PLACE WHERE WE ARE ACCEPTED WHEN SOCIATY DISOWNS US

BALBOA...BAKERSFIELD CALIFORNIA

06 CLAN

Disregarding the above nutcase for a second, I'd just like to say that if Juggalos "overlook race, size and class", I am the King of Space. That's utter bull. - 21:20, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Well youre looking at it the wrong way. The juggalo family accepts everyone at first, but then certain groups of people decide they hate juggalos so the juggalos dont accept them anymore. its kinda hard to make sense of. i guess you just need to be a juggalo to understand.the juggreserection 16:15, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually I agree with the two above the person calling them a nutcase. But you just sayin their looking at it the wrong way is stupid. Because it's their opinion on what being a Juggalo means to them. How can that be wrong? I'm a Juggalette, am I a nutcase? I would think not. We do overlook race size and class. But if you hate us why should we accept you? Would you accept someone who hated you just because of what you believe in? I would hope not, or that would make you the nutcase. Saying we think we're kings of space and its utter bull, well thats just flat out talking crap. Take it to someone else who cares. Any Juggalo wouldn't even let it phase them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.43.162.14 (talk) 13:15, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] radio show

Apparently I'm the only person who listens to Sirius and heard the whole interview. The whole show is available on the Usenet, if any of you doubt what was said. To claim what they said was in a joking matter, then everything they said during the interview was said in a joking matter, as thier tone, inflection, and other aspects of speech did not change at all for that question--pahsons 01:43, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

For starters, it's unsourced so we can't include it. Unless you have a reliable link to a transcript we can't put it in. What's more, this is the Howard Stern show. Obviously it was tongue-in-cheek. To say otherwise is baseless speculation.--Rosicrucian 17:56, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Ask and you shall receive

http://www.marksfriggin.com/news06/9-25.htm#mon

'Howard took some phone calls for the guys. One guy asked if they're okay with the Juggalos going out and mugging people. They said that they're all for it'

When one of them claimed to be a ninja, he then said he was joking, after going into a lengthy description of where he trained and what he could do. None of that from either one on the mugging comment.

I do not think that is a source that we can cite either. For one, it only summarizes, not transcribes. Ergo, we can't really pull direct quotes from it. It's a fan project, not an official transcript.--Rosicrucian 22:55, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

I think most of the people posting here have no idea what the hell they are talking about. There are violent people in every race, color, size, shape, and form. I have been a JUGGALO since the early 90's. It does not mean that I go and act out the shit I heard in the songs. The people stated above are simply just fucking nutballs. The same thing was done to every strange music icons from BLACK SABBITH putting subliminal messages in thier music to Elvis being lude for dancing the way he did. It's very easy to talk trash when your on the out side looking in. Your opinions are predujice, biase, and simple minded. This is being written by a successful juggalo that has a wife, children, and a respectable career. Furthermore, anyone who states that the music they listen to has affected their actions, is apparently a MENTAL MIDGET and is in need of a high dose of zan-x. M.C.L.--JUGGALO-X

[edit] Planning for the Eighth Annual Gathering

I think this should be deleted. I've been scouring the net searching for any relation between Psychopathic Records and the Indian Ranch and Wiki is the only source available. I've checked all the Juggalo news sites and have not found anything about this whatsoever. If an announcement had been made, it would have been plastered all over the official webpages of Psychopathic Records. But.. If you have a source, I'd love to see it!

[edit] "Whoop, whoop, Juggalo!"

As I've explained numerous times in the edit summaries, it doesn't matter if "Whoop, whoop, Juggalo!" is the "correct" term. We have to go with what the cited article claims they said.--Rosicrucian 20:14, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] picture

I believe the picture should have a different caption. i know what it means, but to someone dim enough, "a 'juggalo' in his environment" may suggest that juggalos live in the forest. The juggsd86 04:54, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Me being a Juggalo disagree with the above writing. Our enviroment is were we are with our homies. Enviroment doesn't atomatically mean we live in the forest, deedadee! so deal with it. K? ~Juggalo4lifeandlonger101<helene> january 25, 08 12:55

[edit] Alleged Juggalo Crime section cites

I've cited what I could, but unless I could find a news article that specifically mentioned Juggalos or ICP I've removed the incident. I did find quite a few cites for Robert Belz, but none that indicated he had any connection to the fandom.--Rosicrucian 23:42, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

As a Juggalette I would like to thank you. You've pointed out the fact that Juggalos aren't all bad. Thank you. =] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.43.162.14 (talk) 13:22, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I wanted to point out (since I can't edit the main page) that there have been developments with the Tess Damm/Brian Grove case. Brian was sentenced to 40 years and Tess to 23. Here is a link http://www.denverpost.com/ci_9159224 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Free Fiend (talk • contribs) 15:46, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup

This whole article needs a major cleanup or deletion. It's just shoddy. 81.187.6.201 13:28, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Dark Carnival Mythology

First Off, I am a juggalo. Still reading? Good. I find this article to be a blemish on the face of Wikipedia. This article about the Juggalo subculture says nothing about the lives or beliefs of juggalos. A short blurb about the GOTJ and juggalo-related violence does nothing to show what being a juggalo is all about.

Most glaringly, there is only a brief mention of the Dark Carnival, even though it is central to the juggalo philosophy. Here is some information regarding the dark carnival. What I type can be verified at Insane Clown Posse's offical web site, as well as at juggalofaith.com:

The Dark Carnival is comprised of six Joker's Cards: The Carnival of Carnage, The Ringmaster, The Riddlebox, The Great Milenko, The Amazing Jekel Brothers, and The Wraith

Each of the jokers cards has an accompanying album that has been released by ICP (with the exception of The Wraith, which has two: Shangri-La and Hell's Pit)

Beginning on The Carnival of Carnage and increasing throughout the joker's cards, which are referred to as The Saga, there are hidden references to Judeo-Christian ethic. Some are as simple as reversed audio, while others move into irony and example embedded directly in the lyrics.

Each card has a specific meaning, and represents an aspect of humanity. The Carnival of Carnage is the beginning of the Saga, and represents violence and the tendancy to to turn a blind eye to the suffereing of others.

The Ringmaster deals with sin. In the Dark Carnival mythology, when one dies, all his/her sins coalesce into a creature known as the Ringmaster. The size and veracity of the Ringmaster is directly proportional to the severety and number of sins the person committed in his life. The person will then have to fight this creature before he can pass into Shangri-La (juggalo heaven).

The Riddlebox deals with judgement. When one dies, his destiny will be reveled to him by turning the crank of the Riddlebox, which resembles an old, worn Jack-in-the-Box.

The Great Milenko deals with hypocrisy. The Great Milenko is an illusionist that uses the power of deception to lead bad people to believe that they lead good lives, and only in death are they truly reveled for what they are.

The Amazing Jekel Brothers are another form of judgment. Jake and Jack Jeckel are two brothers that together, form the human soul. Jack Jeckel represents evil, hatred, and sin. Jake Jeckel represents love, goodness, and compassion. When one dies, the two halves of their soul will split, and begin juggling. For each sin the person committed in life, another ball will be added to their show. Jack will try to trip up Jake, who is desperately trying to catch every ball. He will throw curves, toss them behind him, and other like behaviours. If either of the brothers drop a ball, the observer (the dead) will be cast into Hell.

The Wraith deals with eternity. The Wraith himself closely resembles death. When one dies, The Wraith is responsible for "Guid(ing) the departed upon the path that they have chosen" (Walk into the Light from ICP's The Wraith:Shangri-la). When one is cast into Hell's Pit, it is The Wraith whom will deliver him to his destiny. The Wraith is the only Joker's Card to be spread across multiple albums.

The Joker's Cards are not intented to be taken litereally. The entire saga is a metaphor for a way of life that many people don't understand. There is nothing evil or wrong about juggalos. Granted there are bad apples, but for the most part, the Juggalo Family are extremly friendly, compassionate people. They just don't put up with abuse that other members of other subcultures might. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thndrchld (talk • contribs) 18:50, August 29, 2007 (UTC)

Hopefully this will at least lend a little balance to an article that seems to be mostly biased against juggalos.

Thndrchld 18:47, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

There is only brief mention of the Dark Carnival because the carnival has its own article.--Rosicrucian^Talk 20:16, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Sadly, that's no longer true, it was deleted a short while back..... for reasons I don't fully understand.... Onimura Ixmythot 18:58, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Userbox

Anyone know of a Juggalo userbox?the juggreserection 16:30, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

never mind i made my own.the juggreserection 15:53, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

sup i'm down wit the clown for life but how the f*ck do you make a juggalo userbox?emoboy557 (talk) 17:30, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Psychopathic Records Wikiproject

support the approval of this wikiproject
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Council/Proposals#Psychopathic_Records
the juggreserection 18:45, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Here is the Wikiproject:Psychopathic Records page. Please spread it around.the juggreserection 14:25, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More Content

I really think this article needs more content than the simple words that are already on there.--ItsJodo (talk) 02:34, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Names

Hello, my fam and I really enjoyed the "names" section, which tells all the other titles juggalos can go by, just for the fact that it cleared up some things as to what was what in the music's lyrics. So why has it been deleted? Just wondering if anyone could leave a copy of it on my page.Mutlee (talk) 15:45, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't like that they call it horrorcore music...they don't call other rappers sexcore or drugcore...wtf is with this... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.198.220.58 (talk) 05:30, 27 January 2008 (UTC)