Talk:Judas Chair

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Judas Chair has had a peer review by Wikipedia editors which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.

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Would someone please find any evidence, and by that I mean real evidence, for the existence of this device. The likelihood of the Inquisition encouraging "deviant" sexual behaviour is about zero. This is obviously bullsh*t and I suggest going straight to a VfD. Anyone object? Lao Wai 20:30, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

Lao;

here is a link to a site that has a photo and description of this medieval device. And to answer the question, YES it has been used before.

http://www.medieval-castles.org/torture/impaling_torture_impale.htm

The likelihood of the Inquisition encouraging "deviant" sexual behaviour is about zero. They weren't encouraging deviant behaviour, they were punishing it.

No it is not. It is a picture of a stick for impalement. This is a different punishment altogether and not one widely used in Western Europe (or by the Inquisition at all to the best of my knowledge). I also doubt that it is genuine but that is another matter.

As for deviant sexual behaviour it makes no sense to punish such behaviour with more such behaviour. The Church has strict rules about this sort of thing. It is a punishable sin in and of itself. They would happily burn someone to death as long as there were no sexual overtones. I flatly refuse to accept they used such a device - it would contradict their entire reason for being and religious worldview. More evidence please. Lao Wai 08:18, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Refuse it all you want, the world's greatest pedo ring (aka The Church) is all about prohibiting anything sexual to others, but, when it comes to them, everything is allowed. See the pedophilia scandals in the Catholic and Orthodox church all over the world, to say nothing of the witnesses of Jehova. It makes a world of sense, in the eyes of a pious monotheist, to turn sex into a deadly, painful punishment, so as to make a horrendous example to others. Elp gr 14:46, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

Come on you're wasting everyone's time and bandwidth. Try to write something sensible. There is a case to be made for the Judas Chair. Make the effort. Lao Wai 14:57, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

Here is another link: http://www.shanmonster.com/witch/torture/judas.html Learn to not expect so much evidence out of everything.

Well actually that is the first link as the other one was to something else. But it is still not evidence. This is an attempt at an encyclopedia. An expectation of evidence goes with the territory. Who would be interested in an encyclopedia that was right half the time? This is not an academic site. It is not evidence in any meaningful sense. There may be evidence out there, but no one has found any yet. I say get rid of the page. Lao Wai 12:16, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

What more evidence could you want?

The body of academic work on the Inquisition is huge. That on torture is not as huge and of less impressive quality but there is still a lot out there. The amount of work done on sex and the Church is enormous. If anyone was using this device in the Middle Ages, with or without the approval of the Church, there would be a stack of evidence. There would be theses written on it, articles, books, the works. The fact that there is not a single academic website devoted to this is surely evidence of the lack of any historical basis to the story. If this story was true there ought to be something peer-reviewed. I don't think that is too much to ask for an encyclopedia. Lao Wai 08:21, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

You do understand (I hope) that the church is still quite strong and would be greatly displeased if an academic work decided to document each and every little detail of the torture methods used. Elp gr 14:46, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

Again this is just childish. Lao Wai 14:57, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

You dispute it, based on your ideas about the Inquisition, and say, they would never use a such item, and think for this reason no such items should exists. In fact you can check Pear_of_Anguish and other devices that can counter your main argument quickly. It is possible to dispute any and all references, evidence, etc. but your reason for questioning everything is pretty weak. Also, I have to remind you, this tool doesn't promote sexuality, but mutilates sexual organs, and is a punishments. You think castration would be alien to the medieval world, or current islam nations because it is related to sexuality? These examples prove that your argument is inherently flawed. Since we have a museum, several sites named, you can find names of the device in several languages, I think the article can stay, and if you want to post reasoning against it, you should provide *any* references from credible sources claiming the items in museums are fake. Enerla 12:12, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

There seems to be about as much evidence regarding this torture device as most of the others. I doubt a whole website would be devoted just to this particular torture instrument; every medieval Inquisition website I have seen has articles on many different instrument and not just one.

Well there is an obvious problem with using Websites - the Net is full of great stuff but it is about as accurate as throwing darts. There is a lot of evidence for some torture devices. Surviving witnesses for one. Take French use of telephones to Algeria - not only people who were tortured, but people who used them have talked about it. So there ought to be a number of books describing this form of torture, if only as part of a wider discussion of torture or the Inquisition. No one has found one so far. Doesn't that strike you as odd? Lao Wai 10:14, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

As a historian, I can assure you that the Judas Chair did exist. I can add some textual references when I get back to my office. But in the meantime, it I have to say that there isn't much wrong with the website references the above user has pointed out. For instance, at this time, textual evidence of many aspects of torture are lacking. However, historians have a huge help in the imagery of the time. There are hundreds of images of the Judas Chair leading us to believe that not only did it exist, that it was probably put into effect.- craell

I added a text reference to the links. Everyone happy now?

I am unconvinced by people who assure me of anything "as a historian". I have looked up the links you provided and I am less than impressed by them too. What on earth can you mean by nothing much wrong? Chastity belts are urban legends. The website gives one as if it was a fact. How can that be anything other than a red flag? I have my doubts about the lack of any sort of textual material. The problem with the imagery is the "Black Legend". Protestants wanted to believe bad things of the Inquisition. They faked stuff. Compare it with the Jewish Blood libel. Want to make a guess at how many sources and pictures I could find of that? Should Wikipedia report it as true? Lao Wai 11:19, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Next thing I know, I'll see someone like you put a "totallydisputed" tag on the Lunar landing... Elp gr 14:46, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

No doubt you think that is rather clever and original. Care to think about the differences between this and the Lunar landings (which are, by the way, disputed)? Lao Wai 14:57, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

It is now quite clear that you just don't want to admit the crimes of the catholic church and don't want others to learn about them. That's why you put the tag on the article. I'm deleting it. Oh, and regarding the lunar landing... Keep the conspiracy theories to yourself. Wikipedia is NOT the place for conscience manipulation or conspiracy theories. Elp gr 16:35, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

Again this is childish. You will notice I am happy to admit the "crimes" of the Catholic Church and did so above. And elsewhere. I have no problems with real evidence-based articles about the Catholic Church or any other Church. But nonsense is nonsense and should not be on Wikipedia. Lao Wai 16:50, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

Then I guess medieval illustrations and depictions of such equipment, as well as original, authentic exhibits in museums should be discounted, IF we were to adopt your "logic". I'm also adding the page with the address and phone number of the Italian Museum of Medieval Criminology, which exhibits a Judas Chair. Perhaps you'd like to tell THEM that they're talking nonsense. Elp gr 17:05, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

I will happily accept any medieval illustration or depiction of such equipment. I will even accept a very early modern (i.e. post-Reformation) Catholic illustration or any academic or neutral source. The problem is that if there are authentic exhibits in museums no one has found one. I am perfectly happy to ring the privately-run, non-academic IMofMC and tell them they are talking nonsense. I have said they are talking nonsense before. They also display a Chastity Belt which is also imaginary and hence faked. I am happy to see the quality of your objections has improved. But nonsense remains nonsense. Lao Wai 17:13, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

You're only bitter with the whole torture thing, because of the references to torture against Falun Gong practitioners in China, I suppose. Get over it. Elp gr 17:21, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

Keep trying. Spray enough silly accusations about and one of them is bound to hit. But in the meantime would it be too much to ask you to try and find a book? Lao Wai 17:24, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

You're not worth bothering. The mere mentioning on your behalf that the lunar landing of Apollo 11 is disputed immediately shows how seriously one can take you. Elp gr 17:32, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

Well I think I am and more importantly if you learn how to behave adequately and do some research you may find Wikipedia is worth it too. But that is not important. The statement that the Moon landings are disputed is a simple statement of fact. They are. You can look it up if you like. I do not happen to agree with those who dispute it, but the fact remains they are disputed. But the big differences is that there is evidence of the Moon landings. Find me some for this. Lao Wai 10:03, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

Lao is correct. This device remains undocumented. I'd like to comment the prussian horse refered to in the article. It is known in scandinavia and denmark as the wooden horse. it was nothing else than a wooden triangle which millitary soldiers had to sit on for hours. the wooden edge was uncomfortable but there was no insertion of any kind in an orifice. the wooden horse is also a relatively new device, dating from the 19.th century. If anyones interested I can get references to the books I read about them in. Ravage.

Wow, you guys are really going at it. I just read through this whole discussion and it seems to me that if Elp gr is willing to put this much energy into arguing about this thing, then he should have enough energy to find a reference to it in some printed work. I agree with Lao that if the best evidence is a non-authoritative web page or two, then the existence of the Judas Chair has not been demonstrated.

It also seems to me that Elp gr is motivated by desire to inveigh the Catholic Church. As an atheist, I have no desire to defend the church, but that doesn't mean that I would try to make its history even more embarassing than it already is by attributing to it torture devices that never existed.

--SamuelScarano 20:56, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

In Italian it was the culla di Guida, in German the Judaswiege, and the French broke from tradition and called it la veille - "the wake" or "nightwatch".

Contents 1 Why the Factual Dispute? 2 It should be deleted 3 Reference 4 French 5 There's a book that contains a session taken down during the torture.

[edit] Why the Factual Dispute?

The article says the chair was allegedly used - not that it was definitely used. Who disagrees that some say it was used?

Seems to me that there is only one person disputing this against overwhelming evidence. I am going to remove the tag. PhatJew 10:28, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Just to clarify for you, it's not "only one person" who has issues with this article. All you need to do is produce a legitimate academic source and I will happily agree to removing the tag. The only references I can find for this chair are blogs, mirrors of this article, pages based on this article and tourism sites. I cannot find any academic sites or references. Please address these concerns before removing the tag again and cease dismissing the dispute as just one person being difficult; it is a very demeaning way to respond to legitimate questions. Sarah Ewart (Talk) 22:37, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Sarah, please be nice. I read the talk page, and there was only one person arguing with lots of other people. This is the first time you are commenting here on the dispute. I didn't mean to be demeaning. PhatJew 05:34, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

I also think this article should be deleted. I'd be more than happy to change my mind when (if) so much as a shred of credible evidence of this thing's existence has been found.Jaimetout 01:21, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Do you have difficulties with admitting the inquisition used torture methods that could be concieved as being sexual? Do you also have a problem with the article about the "Pear"?

[edit] It should be deleted

This article should be deleted as it is not based on facts. -Ravage. 02.05.2006

[edit] Reference

There were actually two variants of the Judas Chair.

The first variant involved ropes and pulleys and was called the culla di Giuda in Italy, Judaswiege in Germany, and la veille in France. The English term for this device was actually called the "Night Watch".

The second variant involved no ropes and pulleys; it relied on gravity supplemented by weights. It was called the "Witche's Seat".

A reference outlining the use of each device, along with lithographs depicting a man on the Judas chair and a woman on the Witches seat can be found in a French text published in 1968 (reprinted 1982) entitled La Musee des Supplices by Villeneuve Roland. The lithographs are fairly well known, a quick Google search yields:

http://www.angelfire.com/darkside/forgottendreams/judascradle.html

There are two actual devices that I know about, one in Italy and another in a museum in Freiburg, Germany:

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.foltermuseum-freiburg.de/museum/folter2.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3DJudaswiege%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DG

I find those links of doubtfull referential worth. Museums often exhibit fakes, and the first link is just a picture. -Ravage 20.05.06

Many text books, including academic research often publish not so accurate information (see myths about chastity belts, etc), pictures, several names (in different languages), some item in a museum can be much stronger evidence. Enerla 12:12, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Just for the record, I saw one of these in a Dutch Torture Museum, and another in a Prague exhibtion, although both were reported to have been of German origin. They certainly seemed authentic and were presented with torture devices which are not in dispute. I fail to see the logic in the argument that dozens of these devices in museums across Europe would have been built in some sort of conspiracy. I cannot think of ANY other torture device or method of human cruelty which was devised but not used, and would be astonished to think that the minds which conceived of this device did not put it to some use.

[edit] French

The french "la veille" means 'vigil,' eve (day before). It comes from the verb "veiller" 'to stay up/awake' and is often used in the sense to hold vigil over someone, e.g. to stay up and watch over the mortally ill.

[edit] There's a book that contains a session taken down during the torture.

I can't remember it's name, but I had gotten it from a library and was reading it. It had a detailed account of the torture in use against an accused heretic. Help on finding it would be appreciated. 65.255.130.104 16:57, 12 July 2007 (UTC)IHouse