Talk:Judaism by country

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[edit] Creation

This page was created using the same program that I wrote to create initially Islam by country, and later Hinduism by country, Buddhism by country, Roman Catholics by country, with the only modification that countries that do not have percentage of Jews available are not printed (though all countries are used in calculation, i.e. total population of the world and region) OneGuy 15:18, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Cool work, but this is a repeat of Jewish population, albeit with some interesting new breakdowns. Could you merge? --Goodoldpolonius2 16:05, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I think it should be merged as well, particularly as many of the people listed here are people who are Jews but do not practice Judaism (of any form). Jayjg | (Talk) 16:29, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

In that vein, most of the references to "Judaism" in this article should be changed to "Jews". Jayjg | (Talk) 16:31, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] discrepancy

I noticed a discrepancy between Jewish population and this in North Africa. The percentage of Jews for North Africa there is 0.1 but I have 2.089% (last column). The reason apparently is Jews in Morocco that I have 1%. I got that from

http://religiousfreedom.lib.virginia.edu/nationprofiles/Morocco/rbodies.html

But checking the State Department site [1], that is not correct. They have 5,000 Jews in Morocco, about 0.016% OneGuy 22:32, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

But changing Morocco has made it much lower than Jewish population for North Africa (0.034% compared to 0.1% in Jewish population). But this is apparently becaue that page has rounded 0.055% (for that page) to 0.1% OneGuy 22:49, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Redirect to Jewish populations?

I like this data, but I do think it would be better to have a single article. Jmabel did a lot of work on historical data on that article, and it would be great to merge your work with his. I could take a crack at it, but I want to make sure this is okay with you. Your thoughts? --Goodoldpolonius2 22:50, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Go ahead. I don't have a problem with that, but first I wanted to make sure that all these percentages for countries from which the rest of the calculations for regions are done are correct OneGuy 22:57, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Like right now there is a major discrepancy between South America between this page compared to that page. Why is that? The table for regions are created automatically from the percentage for country in the first table. Which country in the first table has incorrect percentage? OneGuy 23:08, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Mistake on Jewish population?

According to State Department 2004 report [2], Jewish population of Argentina is 1%. That means just Argentina has more Jews than the total Jews listed for South America on Jewish population page. That can't be right. That's a mistake on that page, obviously OneGuy 23:29, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

And as I said, wait before these discrepancies are resolved. I will check the rest after a few hours OneGuy 23:30, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Recent estimates I've seen for the Argentinian Jewish population consistently list it 250,000 or under. See, for example, this [3], or the World Jewish Population Survey of 2002, which lists it at 195,000 [4]. I suspect the number you have used is much too high. Jayjg | (Talk) 01:51, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Done

I think I am done here (unless someone points to some error in percentage of a country). The source for Jewish population page is

http://www.jafi.org.il/education/100/concepts/demography/demtables.html

I changed the percentages calculated from that data, unless that page conflicted the US State Department 2004 report, which is more up to date. Argentina is one example. A few other examples:

jafi.org has 5,500 Jews in Moldova (no source given on that page for that), but according to the State Department

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/40258.htm

According to the most recently available numbers, the Jewish community has approximately 31,300 members, including approximately 20,000 living in Chisinau; 3,100 in Balti and surrounding areas; 2,200 in Tiraspol; 2,000 in Benderi; and 4,000 in small towns.

Belgium 31,400 Jews on jafi.org (their accuracy table has "1987" -- is that the source date?). According to the State Department

According to the 2001 Survey and Study of Religion ... Jewish population is estimated at between 45,000 and 55,000

Panama 5,000 (1990 on jafi.org). On the State Department:

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2004/35549.htm

According to a 1998 nationwide survey conducted by the Comptroller General's Office of Statistics and Census... Jewish and Muslim communities, each with about 10,000 members; OneGuy 09:30, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Brazil

Brazil had 86 825 Jews in 2000 according to that 2000 census:

[5] (Obs: Judaica = Judaism) PMLF 21:55, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)

And the population in 2000 on that page is 169,872,856 which means about 0.051%, and I have here 0.06%. Not a big difference. In any case, I will change it to 0.051 OneGuy 22:16, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Ethiopia

There are at least 15,000-25,000 Jews (Falasha) in Ethiopia waiting to immigrate to Israel. See [6] (unsigned)

I got Ethiopia from

http://www.jafi.org.il/education/100/concepts/demography/demtables.html

I can change my file to (15,000 + 25,000) / 2. All calculations and printing (including fixing the region %) are done by the program I wrote, so it's simple to change anything :)) OneGuy 23:02, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)


They may not have counted the Falasha - you probably should make it at least 15-25k. --Goodoldpolonius2 00:18, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Nigeria

There are reports and evidence for as many as 10,000 people practicing Judaism in Nigeria, predominantly among the Igbo ethnic group.

Check out these cites for further information

and African Jews —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 130.127.92.227 (talk • contribs) 7 June 2006.

[edit] History of Jew

I noticed someone changed the links to [[History of the Jews in Latin America|Jews in Bolivia]] format. This causes a little problem! I will have to rewrite the printing method for these countries. I am just going to create a redirects from Jews in Bolivia, etc to History of the Jews in Latin America ... (until there is a separate article on Bolivia or something OneGuy 23:25, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)


African Jews ? There is no such artcile yet OneGuy 23:52, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)

And as far as I know, Jews in South Africa are white, not African OneGuy 23:58, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Oops, sorry, link should be African Jew. You are right about South Africa, see the article for full info. --Goodoldpolonius2 00:16, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Um, the Jews of South Africa are still African, regarless of the amount of melanin in their skin. Jayjg | (Talk) 01:53, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Argentina

Jayjg gave two sites jafi.org (C 1990) and jewishvirtuallibrary.org (jewishvirtuallibrary doesn't cite the source), but they probably got that number from Ash, Russell. The Top 10 of Everything 1997; pg. 160-161 [7]. He also has 250,000 Jews in Argentina (just a speculation since jewishvirtuallibrary has exact same number for Argentina).

A number of other sources conflict that,

CIA factbook [8]

nominally Roman Catholic 92% (less than 20% practicing), Protestant 2%, Jewish 2%, other 4%

However, I found a few errors in CIA factbook (older data usually) compared to the State Department reports that were more up to date and accurate. For Argentina the State Department has [9]

In April 2001, statistics provided by nongovernmental organizations (NGOs) to the U.N. Commission on Human Rights Special Rapporteur on Freedom of Religion or Belief indicated the following estimated membership in religious communities, which does not necessarily signify the practice of the religion: Catholics--88 percent of the population; Protestants–-7 percent; Muslims-–1.5 percent; Jews-–1 percent; others–-2.5 percent.

That's what I used 1%. That's the most authoritative source in this case. OneGuy 07:45, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Comparison

Since Jayjg gave me the link to jewishvirtuallibrary, I couldn't resist comparing this page to that one.[10]

Most are minor differences (not counting Argentina) except a few.

For Azerbaijan, they have 30,000 Jews. But according to official government census

http://www.azstat.org/publications/yearbook/2002/en/002_5.shtml

There are 8,900 Jews in Azerbaijan.

They also have way bigger number for Ukraine 400,000, but during the 2001 census, the Jewish population was "estimated at 103,600, although some foreign observers estimate it at 300,000" [11].

They have 60,000 Jews for Germany, but this might be underestimate. Jewish population in Germany is apparently growing. "Jewish congregations have approximately 87,500 members and make up 0.l percent of the population. According to press reports, the country's Jewish population is growing rapidly; more than 100,000 Jews from the former Soviet Union have come to the country since 1990, with smaller numbers arriving from other countries as well." [12]

They have 14,000 Jews for Spain. much lower than "reports that there are 40-50,000 resident Jews." [13]

They have only 500 Jews for Ethiopia.

They have 15,000 Jews for Kazakhstan, contradicted by "6,800 according to the 1999 census and 4,500 in 2002" [14]

They have 8,000 Jews in Poland. The number I have 3,500 (taken from jafi.org) is apparently also incorrect compared to the official government census:

According to the 2003 Annual Statistical Yearbook of Poland... the actual number of Jewish persons in the country is estimated at between 20,000 and 30,000, while the formal membership of the Union of Jewish Communities totals only 2,500 [15]

I changed Poland to 25,000. OneGuy 10:34, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Just a side note. In the first paragraph jewishvirtuallibrary says [16]

The estimated strength of world Jewry today is little more than 13 million.

Since they so nicely posted Jewish population of each country, it was easy to cut and past their list and write a small code to parse and add the numbers that they have. They add up to 14,265,985. That's not "little more than 13 million." Maybe someone should inform them to correct this error OneGuy 03:59, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Removed sorting by percentage

Unlike other religious tables, in this case sorting by percentage in Top 50 section is useless. Clearly Israel is first, the US second, and all the rest have 1% or less. I removed that part. This also provides space to move {{Jew}} template to that section (currently it's disfiguring the first table). OneGuy 13:58, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Censuses

One of the problems in getting good numbers is that, even when they try, it's hard for a census to get good numbers on Jews. For one thing, many people identify as Jews in one context but not in another; in particular, few censuses distinguish between "Jew" in the religious and the ethnic sense.

It's particularly tricky in countries where there may have been intermarriages, but the census wants you to give one ethnicity. For example, I know half-Jewish people in Romania who if they have to pick one ethnicity would say they are "Romanian" -- especially because at present there is not a lot of concept of a secular Jew in that country.

The same kind of thing leads to an almost 50% undercount of Armenians in the U.S. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:28, Jan 16, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Cuba

The source for this was: "during this recent renaissance, Cuba’s Jewish population has more than doubled, from about 700 in 1991 to 1,500 today [2003]" [17] OneGuy 09:20, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Historical comparison

I added a sub page Jews by country/Historical comparison. I wasn't sure if that data should go on this page, Jewish population page or on a separate page. The problem was that both this and Jewish population are already pretty big OneGuy 06:53, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)

At least some of these are apples-to-oranges comparisons. For example, "Austria" in 1900 includes Galicia. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:27, Jan 18, 2005 (UTC)
Same applies to the United Kingdom and some others. I know that. The main goal was to print "By region" table. The first and last tables are byproducts. They can be done just be adding a few more lines of codes. That's why they are there. However, after I saw "By region" tables, only then did I realize that the total population for Central Africa, West Africa, and Southeast Asia was "zero." I don't know why I thought it was some kind of complete list. If the list doesn't have all the countries/regions, then obviously the total Jewish percentage for 1900 must be much lower than 0.873% too. OneGuy 08:54, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Yes, Poland/Austria-Hungary is a big problem in general vis a vis apples to oranges. Salonica is another significant discrepancy (now part of Greece), I'm sure there are others. Jayjg | (Talk) 16:47, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
But Austria, Hungary, and Poland (population and Jewish population) are listed separately in the 1906 Encyclopedia. See [18]. OneGuy 17:08, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Yes, but apparently included under Austria are Polish cities like Cracow and Lemberg (now part of Ukraine). Jayjg | (Talk) 17:48, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Ok, in that case I changed the country's name to "Austria, Hungary, Poland." OneGuy 22:41, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
"Poland" at that time would be Congress Poland under Russian rule. -- Jmabel | Talk 20:28, Jan 18, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Another Good Data Source?

Hey, OneGuy, care to add this to the mix? [19] --Goodoldpolonius2 02:41, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I see just one table on that page. I recreated it as html and posted it here User:OneGuy/Jews historical comparison. I am not sure if this is copyrighted. If not, you can fix whatever is wrong and use it if you want OneGuy 06:49, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
And by the way, since the source for Jewish population and User:OneGuy/Jews historical comparison is both Sergio DellaPergola, it should go on that page OneGuy 02:34, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I note that the estimates you have used tend to be higher than any other source I have seen. I'm not sure what can be done about that. Jayjg | (Talk) 16:22, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Obviously this is caused by using different sources for the population estimates of each country. My primary source was the US State Department. Still in some cases the difference is even smaller. As I said above, the numbers on jewishvirtuallibrary.org add up to 14,265,985, very close to what I have, even though their source is much older (1998 on that page).

I have seen some estimates even higher than I have. You can find them on adherents.com [20]

Such as,

15,050,000: (1998) Ash, Russell. The Top 10 of Everything 1999. New York: DK Publishing (1998); pg. 77.

17,822,000 "The Geography of Religion Website " (assembled by the students of Morehead State University, under Prof. Timothy C. Pitts); web page: "The Geography of Judaism " (viewed 2 March 1999); [Orig. source: Markham, Ian S., (Editor), A World Religions Reader. Cambridge, MA: Blackwell Publishers (1996), pp. 356-357.]"

18,000,000 (1998): "Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance (viewed circa Nov. 1998) [Original sources: J.W. Wright, Editor, The Universal Almanac, 1996, Andrews & McMeel, Kansas City. Greg H. Parsons, Executive Director, "U.S. Center for World Mission, " Pasadena, CA; quoted in Zondervan News Service, 1997-FEB-21.]"

14,111,000, (1998) "World Almanac and Book of Facts 2000. Mahwah, NJ: PRIMEDIA Reference Inc. (1999). [Source: 1999 Encyc. Britannica Book of the Year]; pg. 695."

14,785,000: (1998) "DAWN Fridayfax 1998 #26: research conducted by David Bogosian, Research Director of the 'US Center for World Mission"

15,000,000 ""Major Religions of the World "; web site: "Supporting Materials: Culture " (Slippery Rock Univ., PA). (viewed 31 Aug. 1999). Last revised 23 June 1999." OneGuy 22:37, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Well, the person who really studies this in detail is Sergio DellaPergola; it's basically all he does for a living, as far as I can tell. He does this in pretty rigourous way, so I consider numbers associated with him to be more authoritative than other sources. And DellaPergola's studies consistently come up with lower numbers than other estimates. I don't really have an axe to grind here, and, to be frank, would be happier with the higher estimates, but I just don't believe them to be as accurate. Jayjg | (Talk) 22:59, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Yes, all the web sites that have lower estimates use Sergio DellaPergola as a source. He might be an expert, but still this is not exact science. I am sure State Department reports are written by many people (not just one) who are also experts on the countries that they are writing about. DellaPergola has to rely on census or other sources too. For example, since even the Argentinean Government doesn't have the accurate statistics on religious affiliations, how would Sergio DellaPergola know the answer? Obviously he will have to rely on some kind of census/research done by some local NGO. In this case, the most recent source is statistics provided by NGOs in April 2001 to the U.N: Catholics--88 percent of the population; Protestants–-7 percent; Muslims-–1.5 percent; Jews-–1 percent; others–-2.5 percent. There is no way anyone can claim his number is more accurate. It would be just a guess anyway, not a science. Plus on
http://www.jafi.org.il/education/100/concepts/demography/demtables.html
he has 5,500 Jews in Moldova. How did he get that number? On the state department: "According to the most recently available numbers, the Jewish community has approximately 31,300 members, including approximately 20,000 living in Chisinau; 3,100 in Balti and surrounding areas; 2,200 in Tiraspol; 2,000 in Benderi; and 4,000 in small towns." [21] OneGuy 00:50, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Too much stuff to maintain?

I only had to add one line: out.println ("<td> " + country.relPop / totalRelig(ar) * 100 + " </td>"); to add this new "% total" column, but I am not sure if it's the right idea. Two problems (1) too much info in the table (2) more importantly, all these percentages will have to be changed in this and the similar column in "By region" tables if someone changes the Jewish population of just one country. This means these tables cannot be maintained (at least not that accurately) without the help of some kind of computer program, like I wrote to do this. Any opinion before I add this column to other religious pages? OneGuy 09:11, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure the % total is helpful; I found it confusing. Jayjg | (Talk) 16:26, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Afghanistan

The uncited claim of one Jew in Afghanistan looks to me like a joke. I'm inclined to revert, unless there is actually a citation. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:59, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

Actually its entirely true and the story is even weirder, there were 2 Jews until 2005 (one died recently) and they hated each other, since each claimed to be the leader of the synagogue - seriously, take a look at this article in the Washington Post. Still should be deleted, though. --Goodoldpolonius2 02:06, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
Well, at least it isn't a joke. Or not exactly. I can go either way on its inclusion, given the citation. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:50, July 27, 2005 (UTC)
It sounds more like trivia than something worth enumerating and ranking. What about the Pakistani cryptoes - they are counted as Muslims, right? //Big Adamsky 04:22, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 80% Jews in Israel

I don't see any basis for this number in the link. Jews have been accused of inflating their population numbers in the past. You would think they would try to be a bit scrupulous in order to deflect these accusations. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.64.166.191 (talk • contribs) 23 Oct 2005.

[edit] Merge proposal

I suggest to add one more column to the country-sorted table from the Lists of Jews by country: all things will be in one place. On the other hand, I may understand the desire to keep the "list of lists" separate, as a purely navigational tool. mikka (t) 03:36, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm with Mikka on this one. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:48, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
personally, I think both pages should be merged. They just have to be organized properly and we still could have a seperate page on stats only, but at least include it with the main page Evil Deep Blue 03:07, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

We need to sort this out somehow. And shouldn't it be Jews by country, not Judaism by country? The numbers seem to correspond to Jews, not Judaism, or you'd have to drop a lot of secular people. - Jmabel | Talk 03:44, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree. The current title gives the impression that this article wants to inform the reader about how Jewish religious practices may differ or be similar in various parts of the world. A much more logical title would be "Jews by country" or, better yet, "List of Jewish populations by country". //Big Adamsky 10:41, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Missing

The country Malta seems to be missing; I'm pretty sure there are a fair number of Jews there. --maru (talk) contribs 17:56, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Or at least so Christopher Marlowe would have us believe. But I'm sure there are some. - Jmabel | Talk 03:40, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Difference between Judaism and Jews should be mentioned

All jews are not followers of judaism some are simply jews by birth and don't follow judaism. most of the statistics suggest that approx half of the jews don't follow judaism. If statistics are taken to identify the religion by self-identification half won't give judaism as an answer. So isn't it better to give statistics of jews different then statistics of judaism. Please see article Who is a Jew? for more details. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.128.5.7 (talk • contribs) 30 Jan 2006.

I don't see how this is important, but Jews and Judaism surely prefer to be written with capital J. ←Humus sapiens ну? 05:48, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
I've added a sentence "These numbers are for Jews as an ethnicity; many, but not all, practice the religion of Judaism." I think that addresses the concern, which seems legitimate to me since the word "Jew" is ambiguous in this respect. - Jmabel | Talk 17:57, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Major overhaul (moves, merges, renames, and additions)

Hello Wikipedians. Based on talk discussions and merge templates, I was bold and shuffled a ton of content tonight. In summary:

I tried to move all the references properly, but please feel free to check things over. Several of the tables need to be converted into Wiki syntax, and I will try to get to that.

I am cross-posting this message to:

Thanks! — Reinyday, 08:18, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What countries are included

I just wanted to clarify that each country that has an article linked is specifically mentioned in that article. For example, people in the United States Virgin Islands appear on the List of Caribbean Jews. However, people in the British Virgin Islands do not appear on the List of Caribbean Jews. So even though the British Virgin Islands are in the Caribbean, the British Virgin Islands do not appear in the table because they are not mentioned in any Jewish-specific article. I hope that helps! — Reinyday, 08:30, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article name

Anyone else feel the name "[Wikipedia:?]Articles on Jews and Judaism by country" or the like might be more apt for this page...?  Regards, David Kernow (talk) 11:16, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

  • Article titles never mention Wikipedia nor that they are articles. However, moving Jews by country to Judaism by country seems perfectly logical to me. — Reinyday, 17:09, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
    Since, though, this article presents a table of links to other articles, perhaps Wikipedia:Articles on Judaism by country is more apt; it could still be linked within the encyclopedia itself (as, say, "See also: Articles on Judaism by country")...?
    See below!  Thanks for your feedback, David (talk) 17:22, 1 January 2007 (UTC), stricken 18:55, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Any article beginning "Wikipedia:" would be one relevant to Wikipedia internal procedures and bureaucracy, like WP:AfD, WP:RfA, WP:N. It should not be used for what is called a mainspace article, i.e. an encyclopaedic one. I prefer to keep titles short where possible.--Runcorn 17:54, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

  • I agree – and, re "Wikipedia:", oops; my mind must've blanked!  Since the article lists (in (an intriguing) table form) links to topics rather than people, Reinyday's Judaism by country suggestion seems most appropriate, so I've been bold. Yours, David (talk) 18:55, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Template:Country table

Those who are interested in the debate about keeping or not this template may comment at Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion/Log/2007_July_27#.5B.5BTemplate:Country_table.5D.5D. Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 09:17, 28 July 2007 (UTC)