Talk:Jubilees

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[edit] Questioning the relevance

Can we get some quotes about the Nephilim as mentioned in Jubilees to give the following bit an air of relevance? Does Og even get mentioned in Jubilees? I have left this in the article, nevertheless:

The Nephilim which were in existence during the time of Noah were wiped out by the great flood. However, biblical accounts found in Numbers, Deuteronomy, and Joshua indicate that the Nephilim, as well as other races of giants who were the progeny of the Nephilim, were reconstituted after the flood, since at least one of the Nephilim, Og, had survived the flood.

Why is this text in this article? --Wetman 20:13, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

Surely the Nephelim appear in the Book of Numbers, meaning they survived the flood, or were respawened after it took place? 80.229.160.127 23:57, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

This is not Star Trek, where apparent mutual incoherences need to be explained away. These are two independent texts, separated by centuries, written from different cultural points-of-view. Like satyrs, nephilim have no existence outside these texts, and "respawning" and other pseudo-biographical imaginings are not with an encyclopedia's scope. --Wetman 01:56, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A couple possible errors

I'm posting these here to give others a chance to comment before I correct because I am not an expert on this subject (but I'm almost certain the article is in error).

"As the Chronicler had rewritten the history of Israel and Judah from the 7th century BCE point-of-view of the Priests' Code"

Does *anyone* believe that Chronicles was written this early? Especially considering that it goes right up to the 6th century, and that Ezra and Nehemiah are likely by the same author and continue ever later???

"not unlike the way the Deuteronomist recast older materials to create Leviticus and Deuteronomy"

I've never heard of anyone who considered Leviticus to have been written by the Deuteronomist. Plus, I don't think these situations are really analogous. 71.68.72.207

[edit] River Tina

Just curious... does anyone know where the "river Tina" is? It is referred to in the book, but I can't figure out which river it is. The Behnam 21:09, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

According to the footnoted editions you can find in the library, (Charles & Charlesworth) it is the river Don or Tanais. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 21:49, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Thanks. Now I can find my allotment. The Behnam 21:53, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] pseudepigrapha

A Reliable Source describes this book as one of the Pseudepigrapha, and so should we. Please don't delete scholarly refrences from RSs. Leadwind (talk) 15:23, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

It's already mentioned neutrally who considers it "pseudepigrapha", ref that of you want, To declare it "is" pseudepigrapha is antoi-EOTC POV, and taking sides. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 15:26, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Citing a Reliable Source isn't taking sides. Leadwind (talk) 15:29, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Citing a POV source as if there were no disagreement is. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 15:30, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia is NOT the Council of Nicea. It isn't our role to issue pronouncements as to what books "are" properly to be considered canonical, what books aren't, and what books are to be considered "false writings" or "pseudepigrapha". All we can do is faithfully and neutrally report what the various differing canons of the various bodies are, and how they differ, which can certainly be referenced, as long as the language remains neutral. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 16:01, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Any record of the suppression?

Is there any record of the suppression of this book or did it just gradually fade from use. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.52.215.67 (talk) 15:47, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New Section

This article ogn Jubilees in completely outdated. It repeats the scholarly position of Robert Henry Charles. Charles was an outstanding scholar but he wrote in 1912, one century ago, long before the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls. There is no scholar today that claims that Jubilees was a Pharisaic document. The articles needs urgently to be updated. I could not help giving some suggestions, when a student brought to my attention the content of this article. Wikipedia is now currently used by University undergraduate students and must provide a basic, neutral position, reflecting the current status of research. Gboccaccini (talk) 18:21, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Please take a look at some of the previous conversations here. The status of this book, and theories about its origins are officially disputed. The only complete copies were found in Ethiopia, where they are still regarded, to this day, as holy and canonical books. The opinion of the Ethiopian Church regarding their own holy book constitutes, per WP:NPOV, a "significant POV" -- exactly as does the opinion of Muslims regarding the Quran, or the opinion of Mormons regarding the Book of Mormon, etc. Therefore any assertion that it "is" a first century "pseudepigrapha" / "false writing" / "forgery", that drops the necessary NPOV caveat "in the opinion of modern western scholars" is POV- pushing, and endorsing one POV above another, which is not neutral. If you want to include a detailed explanation in the article of how Charles' views differ from those of later European scholars, scribes and "experts", please keep NPOV in mind. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 18:40, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I understand your point and I agree. I have profound respect for the position of the Ethiopian Church, that must be reported. My point is different. The article must also report correctly the scholarly view. Now, the idea that Jubilees is a Pharisaic document is not the position of the Ethiopian Church; it was the scholarly view of H.R. Charles but it is not the current position of contemporary American, European, Israeli, etc. etc. scholars, after the discovery of the Dead Seas Scrolls. This should be stated, otherwise it seems that this is still the contemporary scholarly view. I am sure that you agree on this. A "neutral" article must report things as they are, that is, the position of the Ethiopian Church as well as the scholarly position. Just a curiosity: Why did you mention only later "European" scholars? Some of the most distinguished specialists in Jubilees are American: James VanderKam (Notre Dame University), George W.E. Nickelsburg (Iowa University), John J. Collins (Yale University), etc. Gboccaccini (talk) 05:00, 12 January 2008 (UTC)