Talk:Juan Sebastián Elcano
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This article needs a lot more information -Elcano's role in the mutiny at Patagonia, his relationship with Magellan, his return home to Spain.
- I agree. I have only a little knowledge and incompetent to write in English, therefore, it is difficult to contribute. But, maybe, Nao Victoria, the restored ship of Elcano, will be arrived to Seville in the end of this week or next week after a journey round the world.[1] Therefore, I think it's good time to mend this article on Elcano... --Morio 03:25, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] tendentious opening
The phrase " a Basque explorer serving the Spanish Empire" appears to be trying to make a point by implication about Basques not being Spanish. It seems to be projecting the idea that Elcano, like, Magellan, was a foreigner working for Empire of which he was not associated with by birth. I don't want to argue here about position of the Basque country with relation to Spain and France, but it seems to me that tendentious implications of this type 1) do not really belong here because it is about Elcano and 2) are anachronistic in general. Whether or not the Basques living in the current or 16th Century Spanish borders (which are pretty much identical in that area) are essentially Spanish or not is not relevant. They were subjects of the Spanish king. That status is different from that of Magellan or Columbus, or for that matter Cabot with relation to England, Verrazzano with France, and Hudson with Holland. Let's not use Wikipedia articles to strike pathetic blows in favor our pet political causes. mnewmanqc 02:02, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
- The phrase is not anymore but Spain did not exist in 1476 (his birthday) not in 1526 (his death). The name Spain was only used to refer to a state and not the Iberian peninsula only since Philiph II. In fact it is using Spain what looks quite tendentious. Elkano was Guipuscoan and therefore somewhat Castilian maybe (as Guispuscoa was in personal union with Castile), but not Spaniard except in the sense it meant the: Iberian.
- Let's not use Wikipedia for political games. --Sugaar 23:24, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Name
I want to register my voice as objecting to renaming the explorer de Elcano (or del Cano).
According to Daniel J. Boorstin's book The Discoverers, the correct spelling for this entry is Juan Sebastián del Cano. (1983, First Vintage Books Edition 1985, page 266.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.126.72.215 (talk) 02:46, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Circumnavigation
Magellan´s mission was to find a route to the Spice Islands sailing westwards. Elcano was who truly decided to circumnavigate the world.
[edit] Elcano's nationality and service
There's been a lot of modifications the last couple of days about whether Elcano was doing things for Spain or Castille, and whether he was Spanish, Castillian or Basque.
Sugaar, you've based your description of work for Castille because Spain did not exist officially yet as a single Kingdom. Yet, what is now Spain was under the rule of a same person, Carlos I, who is now considered as the first King of Spain (for example he is the first person to be buried in El Escorial with Felipe II and all the kings after him; remember that one thing is the practical reality and another the peace of paper certifying it, for example Italy, the USA and the UK were already military allies with common defence compromise before NATO created as such). This is accepted both in Spain and internationally.
You say Elcano was Basque because of such ethnicity to exist at that time. The Spanish one as well, and he is considered as such. The same applies for example to Juana I, Picasso or Dali (they are not described as exclusively Castillian, Andalucian or Catalan instead of Spaniards), I therefore think that it is much more correct to define him as a "Spaniard from the Basque Country" and not exclusively as "Basque navigator".
I therefore suggest to do something of the following structure: describe Elcano as "Spaniard from the Basque Country", and he "explored, etc, for Spain and Carlos V, king of Spain, at that time still called Castille" Escorial82 (talk) 09:45, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
- No. The Spanish ethnicity wasn't defined at that time, not more than the British one for instance. There was no Spanish state either, because Charles V was the first joint monarch of Castile and Aragon and he was also king of many other realms. Spain was then a mere geographical term that meant the Iberian peninsula.
- The first monarch to style himself as "King of Spain" was Philip II, AFAIK, upon his ascension to the Portuguese throne. With that personal union, Philip II became indeed King of Spain, that is: of the Iberian peninsula.
- After Portugal broke apart, the name remained, even if the different realms were under different laws and jurisditions until the Bourbon dynasty, that supressed most of them. It could be discussed indeed if under the Habsburgs there was a state named "Spain", as each realm had its own law, tribunals and government, but that's not a debate I want to get into. What I say and, is quite clear, is that before Philip II, there was no King of Spain, and therefore no Kingdom of Spain even if loosely speaking.
- Furthermore: non-Castilian subjects of the Habsburgs were in principle not allowed to participate in the colonial enterprises of the Kingdom of Castile. That's a reason why there are so few people of Catalan or Aragonese origin in the colonial history of Latin-America. Southern Basques instead, as subjects of the King of Castile, "Castilians" if you wish, were allowed an often participated in such adventures. Andalusia instead was fully part of Castile (or Castile-Leon), as much as Valladolid, and even participated in the Comuneros revolt (that affected only Castile). The Southern Basque provinces were part of the Kingdom of Castile but unlike the rest of the realm, they enjoyed special autonomy based in the Navarrese right, were off the Castilian customs area and did not have to provide soldiers except for the defense of their own provincial territory.
- So any Southern Basque living then was a Castilian with special status... but Spanish (Spaniard is possibly despective, mind you) only in the geographical sense of "Iberian" - fully comparable, mutatis mutandi, to the concept of "British" before the act of union.
- You can't say that because some today consider Charles V ("Charles I" in Castile and Aragon only, in Navarre he would be "Charles V" as well) "the first king of Spain" (others consider that to be Ferdinand of Aragon, for instance but it's as well a subjective appreciation), Spain existed then. As you surely know, the domains of Charles were immense and nobody thinks of Austria or Milan as part of "Spain". In any cae, I challenge you (in friendly terms naturally) to provide any historical documentation that justifies the use of the term "King of Spain" or "Kingdom of Spain" as early as the rule of Charles V.
- You won't be able, I assure you, as no matter what some want to believe, the first monarch ever to use the term "King of Spain" was Philip II upon the incorporation of Portugal to his domains. --Sugaar (talk) 10:49, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
- Carlos was Carlos V of the Holy Roman Empire and Carlos I of Spain. King of Spain, as Carlos I, from 1516 to 1556, and of the Holy Roman Empire from 1519; he was the two things, describing himself as such, and considered as such by Phillip II and the successors (eg read it in Encyclopaedia Britannica) Escorial82 (talk) 11:22, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
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- Some more examples of my previous comment: Acts of the court, Coins, Many more can be seen in Spanish Wikipedia: De Hispania a España Escorial82 (talk) 13:17, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
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- Probably the numbering custom is more recent than Charles V and, as far as I can read in those acts, he's never adressed with any ordinal after his name. He was indeed the first monerch of that name in both Castile and Aragon but he was also known first and foremost as Emperor, his highest dignity and the one he tried to enforce in the many wars he was involved in.
- I can't read in those acts (acts of the Cortes of Castile, only and exclussively - previous Cortes in Aragon and Catalonia are mentioned as something apart) any reference to Carlos as "King of Spain", instead the plural form "Reynos" (kingdoms) is used once and again. Certain Bishop does use the term "España" (Spain) but alongside of Italy and Germany, which weren't either unified states but geographical regions (with all the personality you wish). The comparison wit Italy is very clear.
- The coin is indeed interesting but notice please that "Hispaniarum" is plural, meaning "of the Spains" or, as we would say in modern language, "of the Iberias", just as nearby "Indiarum" means "of the Indies" . The term "Hispaniarum" had been used before by monarchs of Leon and, in one case, Navarre. In none of these cases meant anything but that they power was exerted or wanted to be exerted overe several Iberian realms. Close but not quite.
- In regard to this coin notice that the coat of arms is that of Castile-Leon.
- As I said before, the first monarch of Castile and Aragon to style himself "King of Spain", meaning initially King of all Iberia, was Philip II, who was also monarch of Portugal. After Portugal left the union, the name stuck, even if the several separate administrations remained in place for some time yet.
- The process of constituion of Spain as state and nationality was not as swift as you seem to think. It was a sometimes punctuated, sometimes gradual evolution. But in this process, Philip II was the first monarch who used the title that would remain and was also the first monarch that ruled over all what is now Spain and for who that region was the core of his empire. This wasn't the case with Charles, whose policy was basically of Imperial nature and whose empire was formed by many realms, one of them, very important, being Castile. But none bearing the name of "Spain".
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--Sugaar (talk) 19:44, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
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- Regarding the Spanish Wikipedia, Wikipedia is not a valid source for itself. The few cases mentioned there are not convincing on first sight anyhow. It seems mostly an opinion held by the Spanish scholars, who, sadly, often display a strong nationalist bias. --Sugaar (talk) 19:52, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
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- I know that Spanish Wikipedia cannot be used as a source itself. If I put it is so that you can see all the other references they mention; I link you here to another one, Larousse. This is another high-reputation encyclopaedia that describes him as Spanish. You mentioned previously that even if the Basque Country was not a country Elcano was of Basque ethnicity. Were some people from the area ever considered as Basque and not Spanish (ethnicity/cultural union considered as such since Fernando and Isabel) from the end of the "Reconquista" until Sabino Arana? I therefore insist that Elcano was a Spanish navigator from the Basque Country. Escorial82 (talk) 13:49, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
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- There was no concept of Spanish ethnicity then... it would be something like "Balcanic ethnicity" (the Balcans are a geographic region but people there belong to many different ethnicities) or "Scandinavian ethnicity" or "Indochinan ethnicity". Spain was just a geographic denominator to refer to what we call now Iberian peninsula. People spoke many different languages, were under different administrations (some of them just united in person under Ferdinand and his grandson, the Emperor) but no institution that can be claimed as "Spain".
- Naturally people tend to see the past with modern cathegories and it's easy to call these people "Spanish", as it's used for Trajan or Abd-ar-Rahman III as well occasionally. In some cases this perception is enhanced by nationalist bias but for all legal purposes in his time Elcano was Castilian and Guipuzcoan (as the "fuero" gave him different rights and obligations than the average Castilian, like the status of gentry, "hidalgo", in all Castilian lands).
- In my opinion, claiming Elcano as "Spanish" (ethnically or legally) is a political statement that cannot be upheld against the historical facts: un his time there was no "Spain" yet, neither ethnical nor legal, just an array of "Spanish" (Iberian) realms, some of which were ruled by the same monarch, who also ruled many other lands throughout Europe.
- There is not even a single serious indication that he ever named himself "King of Spain", something that only his son Philip would do. --Sugaar (talk) 16:50, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
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- I corrected the nationality explaining it in precise terms (saying that its how he's now considered, and who was Charles I). I put the needed references Escorial82 (talk) 15:40, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
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(unindent) Sorry. No way. If you want to make a political statement, you can start by trying to claim Trajan as "Spanish" (sarcasm intended). The fact is that there was no state named "Spain" and that your "is considerd" phrase is idelogical and refers only to those with a Spanish naionalist bias. Wikipedia is a encyclopedia and not a board for political statements. --Sugaar (talk) 08:52, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
- Do you describe that as a political statement? Something that is worldwide recognised? I would rather say the opposite; what is ideological / political is that some Basque nationalists are "ashamed" that Elcano was a successful Spanish explorer (NB: I'm Basque). Indeed Wikipedia is for informing, but not as a few people want but rather as it is worldwide done (I quoted other prestigious encyclopaedias as sources). I recommend you to read around on how him and others are mentioned, because if applying your principles it is, for example, more suitable to describe Simon Bolivar or Sabino Arana as Spanish (I consider neither as such) Escorial82 (talk) 11:23, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
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- I am not discussing Arana's citizenship, I am discussing Elcano's. And he was Castilian. There was no Spain yet. When you demonstrate that Spain existed in his lifetime (what is impossible to do), then you will be right. In the meantime, please avoid these kind of edit wars that go nowhere. --Sugaar 09:07, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
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- And, btw, an encyclopedy can hardly be a source for another encyclopedy, much less when the entry is just 2 lines long. Another famous encyclopedia [2] opts for not discussing his nationality (a concet probably not existent then) and just mentions his birthplace:
Célebre navegante, el primero que dio la vuelta al mundo, nacido en Getaria (Gipuzkoa) en 1487 y muerto en el Pacífico en 1526.
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- (Translation: Famous sailor, the first one who circunnavigated the world, born in Getaria (Gipuzkoa) in 1487 and born in the Pacific Ocean in 1526). --Sugaar 09:13, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
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- Just check Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor, please. There is no "King of Spain" among his many titles. He was monarch of many different states, one of which was Castile, to which Gipuzkoa belonged then. --Sugaar 09:26, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
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- Three independent things: You mention me the Wikipedia article on Charles V. It does mention that he ruled Spain as Charles I; the way I had written it states the two things, i.e. that he ruled Spain but at that time it was not a single kingdom.
- This other encyclopaedia you link me to says as well how Magellan wanted to leave and then return to "Spain". With respect to Spain as a culture/ethnia it did exist, as shows it those references I mentioned previously when you talked about Basque ethnicity (Charles I was called Spanish by the courts). The British and Larousse encyclopaedia on-line are indeed only two lines. I quoted them because I checked it manually on the paper version.
- Before this discussion started the article stated that Elcano was Spanish, according to Wikipedia polemic things should be kept as they were before the discussion, i.e. until this ends it should change back to him being Spanish, maybe afterwards it will change to how you wish. Escorial82 11:10, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
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I meant the list of states of which he was ruler. The intro paragraph is changing all the time (another pathetic edit war). But the facts are well clear in the list of crowns he held:
- Crown of Burgundy: Duke of Burgundy (Franche-Comté) and associated realms of the Low Countries
- Crown of Aragon: King of Aragon, Valencia, Mallorca, Naples, Sicily, Count of Barcelona...
- Crown of Castile: King of Castile and León (including overseas colonies, Western Basque provinces and High Navarre - this latter is wrongly placed in the list as part of the Aragonese crown)
- Crown of Austria: Archduke of Austria, etc.
- Holy Roman Emperor (elect) - and associated titles: King of Germany, Italy, etc.
The term Spain is used now, we know, in anachronistic contexts sometimes. Yet, it was then a geographical term meaning the Iberian peninsula (see: Hispania). We have to adhere to the facts and the fact is that no realm with that name existed then. It's also highly dubious that there was a clear national/ethnic feeling among the different Iberian ("Spanish") populations, after all the Spanish ethnicity is built on the Castilian one and, as we can see in the Comuneros Revolt, for instance, the Castilian ethnic/national indentity was clear then.
Anyhow, I think the issue could easily be solved by adding something like "modernly he is claimed as 'Spanish' by some authors". True that the same can be said of Trajan, Hannibal or Benjamin of Tudela but I guess it's the best way to solve this endless dispute between the historical facts (Kingdom of Castile) and the modern Spanish nationalist perception (tending to imply that Spain existed somehow since at least the marriage of Isabella and Ferdinand, what is very very questionable: a romantic, politically charged, idea in fact). --Sugaar 13:04, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
- I suggest you to put it this way. It mentions how he is "currently considered", and clearly states that defining Charles I as King of Spain is done now-a-days, at the time of Elcano he was King of Castile. I think that like this it says the two things each of us defends, and it puts it clear to someone who doesn't know well Spanish geography (i.e. that Castile became afterwards part of Spain).
- Juan Sebastián Elcano (Getaria (Guipuscoa, Spain), 1476 – Pacific Ocean, August 4, 1526) is currently considered as a Basque and/or Spanish navigator [1][2] born in the Basque Country, Castile (now part of Spain) and a naval commander subject of Charles I (at that time Spain was still divided in some kingdoms, all with Charles I as monarch; with respect to Elcano he was officially King of Castile, he is now also considered as King of Spain).
Escorial82 13:42, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
It makes no sense at all, in the article on Elcano, all this stuff about the Kingdoms of Spain in the XVI Century and this rather cumbersome wording on Charles I as King of Spain or not exactly. Please, put everything in the articles on Kingdom of Castile, Crown of Castile, History of Spain, Charles V, and so on.
Therefore, let's make the introductory paragraph on Elcano as simple and informative as possible. There are many other areas where the article should be improved.
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- So getting three times the term "Spain"/"Spanish" in the introductory paragraph is what you understand as "simple and informative". I've removed one of them though I believe that a single mention to Castile now being part of Spain is more than enough, just that I don't know how to do it without leaving the paragraph too confuse.
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- Overall agree with what you say, and also simple. In the article on Castile's historical region it says its current location in Spain, so it can be removed there. I'll rather keep the "Basque Spanish" statement (since as previously seen both cultures already existed by then and that keeps the article without the polemic of the long discussion) Escorial82 (talk) 15:19, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
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- We really don't agree. You are POV-pushing your ideology without any evidence. I would not use the term "Spain" at all because it's not a fact, at most, as non-factual opinion, in a separate sentences specifically refering to some authors (sourced with historians' references, no dictionaries, please) claiming him as Spanish.
- I also strongly suggest that you leave it the way it is until we can reach a consensus (read the policies please) otherwise we are edit-warrying and that's awful. --Sugaar (talk) 23:55, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
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- I agree to what you say in this previous paragraph. But one important thing: this discussion began when the mention of him as Spanish was removed (i.e. the previous consensus was Spanish navigator, and not Basque navigator. I suggest you to leave it in this intermediate status until we do find an agreement. Escorial82 (talk) 10:00, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
- I agree for Sugaar. Escorial82 is #1 POV person of wiki.--La voz de su amo (talk) 12:53, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
- I agree to what you say in this previous paragraph. But one important thing: this discussion began when the mention of him as Spanish was removed (i.e. the previous consensus was Spanish navigator, and not Basque navigator. I suggest you to leave it in this intermediate status until we do find an agreement. Escorial82 (talk) 10:00, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
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(unindent)There was no "previous consensus". There was just a "previous edition" of the article. The only place where consensus can arise is in this talk page. --Sugaar (talk) 22:22, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
- A section is defined as having consensus when it is not modified for a long time. The introduction of him a Spanish navigator had not changed for almost 2 months (until I deleted by mistake the link you had put to the Japanese Wikipedia on the 22nd of November), i.e. a consensus. Since you don't seem to agree with the intermediate thing I wrote 5 days ago I'll return it to the text it was on the 25th of September. And later in the afternoon, when I'll have a bit more of time, I'll write you about a key thing: how is Elcano considered now. Escorial82 (talk) 11:25, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
- How is Elcano currently considered generally all around the world? In most of the publications we've mentioned, or for example in the same article of 14 out of 16 other Wikipedias (including the one in Basque), Elcano is mentioned as a Spanish (or Basque Spanish) navigator. This applies as well to Charles I, he is currently and officially considered as Charles I of Spain (1). So, don't you agree that at least a mention of him being considered Spanish should be included? Escorial82 (talk) 13:44, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
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- No. Consensus has nothing to do with stability of the article or section. Consensus means agreement and must be done here: in the talk page. A gross error that has not been reviewed is not any consensus and in any case, it remains being an error that must be fixed. A consensus of one is not any consensus.
- Elcano is constantly and universally considered Elcano, logically. Do you think people stops to wonder the nationality of Amerigo Vespucci or Trajan? It's just a circumstantial note unless you are fanatic nationalist who bases his/her own identity on what other people (not you) have done. 16 other Wikipedias, probably based in this one mean nothing.
- There is one clear fact here: Spain did not exist in the time of Charles V and therefore in Elcano's life. Can you counter this? No, you cannot. So stop being disruptive, please. --Sugaar (talk) 05:40, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Elcano's current consideration
How is Elcano currently considered by a majority of people? Independently for our discussion about the situation on that time (we could keep it for ages), Elcano is considered as Spanish by most of publications and institutions, as well as Charles V is considered King of Spain (his article explains it). Remember one very important thing: Wikipedia demands that it should have what is considered by most people, and not the one of a reduced number of ones (eventually to mention it, but not to state it as the truth). Again, something that says both things should be in the article. Escorial82 (talk) 09:32, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Île Amsterdam
I have removed a paragraph on a claim of Elcano discovering Île Amsterdam. Pigafetta only says that they left Timor, avoiding all "Greater India" (from Sumatra to Calicut, where the Portuguese were estabilished) and, then reached Cape of Good Hope, in modern South Africa. No mention of any stops or sighted islands at all. And Pigafetta does mention ALL islands they visited or heard of in the Malay Archipielago!
Does anybody have a source for that claim? --Sugaar (talk) 23:14, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
Please, be careful. What you ignore, can anyway exist. It is universally known that (the later named) Amsterdam island was discovered by Elcano.
The log of Francisco Albo, boatswain in Victoria, is very precise on this subject: on March 19, 1522, they saw an island, which he describes, at around 38º S. By the way, Albo`s log is conserved in the Archivo de Indias, Seville, Legajo 1 Patronato 54 num. 5, and has been published many times along the last 200 years.
So, please restore the information you removed.
All this Elcano article is a real mess; sad ... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Buron444 (talk • contribs) 10:20, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
- Well, please put it back yourself, if you are so confident. And if you can provide a source much better. Use: <ref>Insert footnote text here</ref> and the source will appear in the references section at the bottom, linked by a small number. --Sugaar (talk) 18:25, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] "There are also reports that the profits were confiscated by the King to pay for the lost ships."
What the heck? This is the most unsourced and unlikely claim I have ever seen. Deleting. --Sugaar (talk) 18:31, 23 December 2007 (UTC)