Talk:Juan Sánchez Villa-Lobos Ramírez

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Any info on Ramirez's birthday and death??

–Should the grammar in this article be spruced up a bit, especially regarding the references to the Kurgan? Especially where it says "...the vicious The Kurgan..."71.200.112.237 04:01, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

The real world swordsmith Masumune was born in 13th century AD. He cannot be the father of Shakiko and the dragon head katana (593 BC)... pm 03:37, 17.AUG 2006

[edit] Removed Statements

I have removed a number of statements from the article, as they are uncited and quite likely either non-canonical or OR sources. Before any of the following can be returned to the article, it needs to be cited with reliable, verifiable sources, and Imdb or fanfic is not considered canon.

(from History)

Tak Ne was born in Ancient Egypt in 896 BC, during the times of the Pharaohs, and died there too, crushed under the wheels of a runaway cart driven by a drunk rider. Death claimed him, but only briefly, and he returned to life to learn he was an Immortal, one of a number who walked the Earth, unable to truly die unless his head was separated from the rest of his body. As the following years turned into centuries, he learned the rules of the Immortals and The Game. He also learned that while many Immortals sought to live their lives without conflict with each other, at least until the Gathering which would trigger when only a few were left, there were some, such as the vicious Kurgan, who did not wish to wait, and actively hunted down their fellows to gain their Quickenings. He met The Kurgan in Babylon, Greece and China, the last time almost losing his head.

as well as The Japanese Sword-Art of Kenjutsu, giving him a much better chance to survive.

In fact, the reason Ramírez had come to train Connor was because he believed he had the potential to defeat the evil Immortal.

(from Resurrection)

Due to a magical bond Ramírez and Connor had created for themselves before both being reincarnated as Immortals, this caused Ramírez to be reconstituted, whole and undamaged on the spot where he had died.

Note: There are two different versions of Highlander II, and as a result, two different versions of the origin of the Immortals. In the theatrical version, the Immortals were once aliens from the Planet Zeist exiled to Earth. In the Director's Cut, they came from an ancient technologically advanced civilization. Neither of these versions apply to the current canon of Highlander: The Series. - non-notable

(from Animated series)

In Highlander: The Animated Series, a similar but younger (looking) Immortal, Don Vincente Marino Ramírez, plays mentor to Connor's descendant Quentin MacLeod. - non-notable

[edit] Offical Information and Sources

From the Highlander screenplay and novelization comes a great deal of officially-sanctioned information on Ramirez's past, including his earlier Egyptian life, the circumstances of him gaining his Immortality, and details on his travels, including his numerous encounters with the Kurgan throughout the ages.

As long as it originates in an "official" source, background information like this can be cited and used within the main body text of Wikipedia articles, as in, say, Star Wars or Doctor Who or Battlestar Galactica pieces...additionally, this data has largely been accepted by the greater Highlander fan community for decades now, coming as it does primarily from the original filmmakers themselves.

The information might not have made it into the finished movie, but throughout Wikipedia, genre characters like (for instance) Luke Skywalker and Michael Garibaldi and have non-filmic biographical information fully integrated into the main text of their articles — the precedent definitely exists for Tak Ne/Ramirez, as well.

Thoughts on this? --139.67.70.62 14:34, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, and thank you very much for bringing this up, #139. I am not addressing the canon of the Highlander info, as that would be fancruft, and not allowed here. We are allowed to point out what is considered canon and what is not, so long as we cite a source reference identifying one as canon and one as not - we do not get to offer our opinions on the matter.

My concern is that working scripts are extraordinarily hard to come by, and pre-internet onces are ever harder so. I realize that the Highlander merchandising site has slapped a 'official' Highlander gear label on everything from beer steins to satin bomber jackets (and really, does anyone outsode the 70's actually wear these anymore?), and I am sure that the 'official' script was offered there as well. I myself am the "proud" owner of a three-ring binder of Watcher material, wherein you can arrange an episode of Highander the Series. Crufty as hell.

So, my problem is one of provenance - how do we know that the working script and the novelizations are accurate? As you probably know, the litmus test of inclusion for verifiability, reliability and noteworthyness, not accuracy. We need verifiable citations from a relaible source that is noteworthy. Blogs and fansites are almost to a one extraordinarily bad sources for the type of info we can include. The articles you noted meet this criteria.

I hope that helped explain my reasoning to you. :) - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 16:07, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, that Watcher CD-ROM/editing suite is pretty cool. ;-) Basically, in this case at least, we can probably go ahead and go with the Ramirez backstory, because it doesn't really contradict anything seen onscreen, and is available nowhere else at the moment (although — interestingly — one of the writers of the current Highlander comic book made a few references to the "Tak Ne" backstory in his posts, which may bode well for future appearances).

Most of the time, noncontradictory historical information from the screenplays which ended up on the cutting-room floor for whatever reason can be considered "truthful" for the purposes of a particular fictional universe...although retcons now exist even for several of the early filmed Highlander works (such as Immortals being naturally born, as opposed to being foundlings), but in general, if something like the Ramirez history jibes pretty well with the current continuity, there probably isn't any real reason to discard it until/unless something comes up later on to gainsay it.

I actually have every draft of the first Highlander film's script on my hard drives, and it's interesting to look at them and compare them to one another — the first two Gregory Widen drafts are drastically different in tone and in certain character-arcs from the later Peter Bellwood/Larry Ferguson scripts, with some Widen characters eliminated altogether from the rewrites that were done.

Relatedly, most of the Ramirez and Kurgan backstory comes from these later drafts (with even more juicy supplementary memos and insight from the writers on the "10th Anniversary" laserdisc archive), and survived up until the final shooting draft, but ended up getting cut from the movie for various reasons.

Garry Kilworth wrote the excellent novelization based upon the final shooting scripts, and direct input from Bellwood, Ferguson, and Davis/Panzer; though, too, a couple of current-day inconsistencies crop up every now and then (Connor only having taken something like, I think, four heads in his life prior to the Madison Square Garden showdown with Iman Fasil, etc). The vast majority of it, though, still tracks, and is largely considered canonical by the fanbase to this day.

Citationally in the article, we could mention specifically from which work a given factoid originates with the "ref"-tag, as most of the other Wikipedia articles follow this convention, and in the case of the Kurgan, with one slight inconsistency with respect to the present-day continuity (him getting bashed over the head with a rock at age eight, then ceasing to age around 25 years or so), this could be pointed out with a notation relating to the disparity.

Most fans I've seen on the Official Message Boards who've read the book have mentioned that this could still be explained away somehow in the Highlander mythos — for example, the recent film The Source has an Immortal dying for the first time by means other than decapitation, and perhaps the Kurgan's innate natural strength (or some other mystical occurrence similar to the Source) retarded his Immortality "spark" until a later age...he's certainly different from the other Immortals in other respects, as well.

Anyways, didn't quite mean to go on for this long, but it's an interesting subject, and most of what exists can pretty easily be fitted into the greater continuity without too much handwavium or suspension of disbelief, I think. Any thoughts or refinements you might come up with for this? -139.67.70.62 18:38, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Understand about the histerocity of the scripts and novelization. What I am pretty sure it needs before being re-added is the citaiton. To my mind, that's really the only thing standing in the way. If you can find citations regarding the shooting scripts or the novelization, it can go it. Otherwise, it's simply your say-so, which doesn't circumvent the wall of the Five Pillars.

On a side note, if you do happen to find those citations regarding the different scripts (and again, practically nothin from a fan forum can be used; such is also the case with Imdb, save for cast and release dates), you should strongly consider writing an article on the progression of these scripts to final product. It would give some good insight into how film production works in the real world. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 18:52, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ramírez's Name

I think it should be noted that Villalobos is spelled like as single word, with no "-". It also should be noted that Ramirez has three surnames, a very odd thing indeed (even considering he was something of a nobleman).