Talk:Juan Martín

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I have blanked the, now inactive, discussion on this page as a courtesy.--Docg 21:38, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi All I was very interested in that blanked discussion of Juan Martin's nationality. I was at school with him 1959-61, we were both boarders at The Grammar School, Midhurst, West Sussex, England. Ukbn2 had a couple of points wrong, but his basic assertion was correct. Juan's name then was John Newman not John Martin and he came from Shoreham in Sussex not Brighton. When I knew him he had no trace of a Spanish accent. I do not know where he was born and so cannot rule out some Spanish ancestry: but if there was some I was not aware of it. John Newman was frequently in trouble for going without permission to the nearby town of Chichester in order to take flamenco guitar lessons. Another ex-schoolmate, Jerry Fox, used to go with him. John's main aim at the time was to get to Spain in order to learn flamenco guitar properly, and this he evidently did after he left Midhurst at the age of about 16. Ukbn2 is right that Juan Martin's Sussex background is common knowledge in that part of the world. A number of people have mentioned it to me. None of this detracts in any way from the fact that he is a very fine guitarist.Vennfam 04:43, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi Vennfam. I have quite a lot of information on this topic, some of which I was given in confidence and therefore cannot add. I have, however, removed the 1948 birth date which I know independently to be inaccurate, since I remember Juan when he was an adult and I was a student, and I was born in 1946.
I believe my replacement to be an accurate summary; and if so, I suggest we leave the matter there. As you say, it has no bearing on whether Juan is a good flamenco guitarist or not; the late Ian Davies certainly was, and he had no Spanish ancestry whatever. Paul Magnussen 18:15, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi Paul Thanks. I am happy to leave things as they now are. I believe John Newman/Juan Martin was born in 1944 (or possibly 1945)since he is about two years older than me. I certainly agree about the late Ian Davies - he was my teacher for some years. Vennfam 14:41, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Upcoming concerts

Does a list of upcoming concerts really belong in an encyclopædia? Paul Magnussen 18:21, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Date and place of birth again

This is starting to get annoying. If anyone knows the date and place of Juan's birth for sure (and, of course, the name he was born under): then if it was in England, for (I believe) £10 they can get a copy of his birth certificate. I presume a similar arrangement obtains in Spain. Until someone produces such a document, or one equally conclusive, I suggest we consider the discussion closed.

Paul Magnussen 18:35, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

You need to find viable proof backing your personal stories/rumours about Juan Martin before editing a page backed by proof (websites 1 and 2). Look at the discussion history.. In fact here's an article from British newspaper; the Independant : http://news.independent.co.uk/people/profiles/article2524408.ece "The flamenco guitarist Juan Martin was born in Malaga "

A website is not proof, as you must know: anyone can put anything on a website, and frequently does. Nor is a newspaper article whose information may have been taken from the website.

Equally well my own memories are not proof, as you say. I have not used them in the main article.

May I ask: why is it so important to you that Juan's birthdate be established as 1948? And if he weren't born in Málaga, would that make him a lousy guitarist, or reflect adversely upon him in any other way?

Paul Magnussen 16:01, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Paul, an encyclopedia is a tertiary source, not a secondary one. A copy of the birth certificate would not be a WP:RS. The article by a major newspaper (that isn't owned by our favourite aussie...) that anon. linked to is a reliable secondary source. Unless you have RS coverage of a controversy surrounding his birthdate, there's no reason to mention your personal doubts as to his history. yandman 16:41, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
PS: Even if he was born in Brighton or Shoreham, the fact that the Independent says he was born in Malaga and that no-one else says he wasn't means that we have to say he was born in Spain. "Verifiability, not Truth". yandman 16:46, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
OK, I accept this.
Paul Magnussen 18:33, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Cheers. yandman 19:50, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Well i dont - that link is broken/gone/404 - we WILL get to the bottom of this one day chaps - why do all these people keep reporting this eh? we must all be mad in south east EnglandUkbn2 08:54, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

If anyone can tell me how to go about getting a copy of the birth certificate I will happily shell out £10 to have some sort of verifiable proof.... zorro666 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zorro666 (talk • contribs) 18:28, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

You could order one from the General Register Office (gro.gov.uk). But you'd need to state his date and place of birth (and, of course, the name he was born under), which leaves you with Catch-22. In any case, you'd still be left with the task of proving that the certificate you had actually referred to him; it's not as if his name's Theodosius Wigglesnoot or something equally distinctive.
If you really, really can't let the matter drop (which is what I suggest), then your £10 might be better spent advertising for a dated photograph from Midhurst Grammar School (see Vennfam's comments above) :-) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Paul Magnussen (talk • contribs) 21:16, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Moved from article

The article refers to the jazz influenced styles of Paco de Lucía and Montoya. Does this refer to Ramón Montoya? If so he was playing in Spain in the 1920's and 1930's, he was a purist of the traditional flamenco school although he was a very creative composer and especially known for his Rondeña. I do not believe he had very much awareness of the existence of jazz music.

You are correct, unless the Montoya referred to is Carlos — in which case there is still no connection with jazz. I have deleted this, also the babbling about "his buleria is known for its explosiveness."
Paul Magnussen (talk) 18:01, 27 December 2007 (UTC)