Talk:Jozef Tiso
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 |
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page. | ||
| Start | This article has been rated as Start-Class on the project's quality scale. [FAQ] | ||
 |
This article is part of WikiProject Fascism, an attempt to better organize and unify articles relating to the fascist ideology, its impact on history and present-day organizations closely linked to both of these (ideology and history). See project page, and discussion.
This article may be listed on an index of fascist movements or people. Such listing may be controversial; feel free to contribute to discussions there. The presence of this Talk page-only template only implies that the subject is of interest to the associated WikiProject. |
 |
This article is part of WikiProject Slovakia, an attempt to better organize information in articles related to Slovakia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. |
| Start | This article has been rated as Start-Class on the quality scale. |
| High | This article has been rated as High-importance on the importance scale. |
~Mz, the number 58000 is too low, unless it is the number of deported before 1944. What is your source and which time does it refer to? Juro 21:46, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Yes, it is the number of deported until October 1942 ("by that time" = when deportations were stopped), German subsequently deported some other 13,500 Jews during the occupation. Source: In the spirit of Christianity - present in external links. I have added the latter number into the article. mz 08:14, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I am sure this is not a NPOV given the extensive literature existing on this topic. But as you wish... But what is definitely wrong is the statement that that there was no pressure - Germany repeatedly strongly intervened that the Jewish question is not solved in Slovakia and something must be done about that, otherwise there would be troubles... Juro 22:32, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
If German WWII documents are not NPOV, what is then? (Definitely some sentences from this article aren't, but I do not intend to change them until I gather evidence and references.) Anyway, I did not mean there was no pressure - there was a pressure, but it was not impossible to resist the pressure. I rephrased the sentence for clarity. mz 17:35, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
"Nazi-controlled puppet government"??? What does the author mean by that? Even though there was pressure from the German side, prime minister Vojtech Tuka resisted the pressure to "final solution of the Jewish question" after being informed about killing of Jews in the concentration camps. And even about the interventions against the Jews, Tuka said that it was "our will and our iniciative. It is true that they gave me the possibility to realize my plan, and I, naturally, did not refuse." User:Liberal Nationalist 15:42, Mar 4, 2005 (UTC)
1. The topic is much more complicated then you think and are presenting it here. I could take hundreds of books and "bombard" you with various, frequently opposing, statements of various persons in Germany and Slovakia of that time 2. Tuka was a very special person. This is not an article about Tuka. 3. The formulation Nazi-controlled puppet government is approximately correct in the sense that this is how most sources present the government. Do not expect an encyclopaedia to present some innovative special views... Juro 21:47, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The formulation is definitely not NPOV. The government was only INFLUENCED by Nazis and not CONTROLLED, difference. There was no "Nazi" in the government anyway. Even Tuka or Mach cannot be considered Nazis, their opinion was called "Slovak National Socialism" and Nazism is German National Socialism. Slovakia was a state with limited sovereignity, but a sovereignity much more stronger than communist Czechoslovakia. What I am presenting is not a special view and I think that most experts in the theme first Slovak Republic would not say Nazi-controlled puppet government. I would reformulate the sentence, but I do not want an edit fight, so I hope Juro and others will understand why it is a wrong formulation. LibNat 18:15, Mar 7, 2005 (UTC)
A suggestion for the new formulation: "Nazi-influenced government", "German-influenced government". And by the way, why does Juro think that Tuka is "special"? Prime minister is kind of a typical figure in any country, don't you think? Liberal Nationalist 18:27, Mar 7, 2005 (UTC)
I've decided to change the text and I hope that it won't be a problem. The previous formulation was absurd, Tiso was not President of a government!!! Liberal Nationalist 18:36, Mar 7, 2005 (UTC)
- Nazism is abbreviation of "national socialism", the nationality is not specified. The Nazism article uses the term "German Nazism", so perhaps the appropriate term would be "Slovak nazism"... Anyway, after 1944 the political situation is Slovakia was definitely controlled by Nazi Germany, with Tiso as a president, of course... --195.113.53.102 15:07, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
-
- The present version is OK. It is also true that before 1944 the first Slovak Republic was in fact more independent than post-war Czechoslovakia with respect to the Soviet Union. Some remarks: (1) The meaning of control is not so clear in English anyway (we have had the problem already in connection with Czehoslovakia), (2) in English, government refers to all governing institutions and entities, not only to the sum of ministries (we have had this problem already too) [see e.g. expressions like "the structure of US government"], so the formulation (which does not stem from me) was wrong only from a certain point of view, (3) do not forget that there were "German advisors" in the government (ie the ministries)...Juro 01:16, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
In the article, someone claims that the number of Tiso's exceptions is 2'000. According to what I know, he has given 9'000 exceptions, which covered about 30'000 Slovakian Jews. Liberal Nationalist 14:50, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
If you can cite a good source, you can add that as an alternative. But I have never seen such a high number. Juro 17:15, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
I think the intro should mention Tiso has been executed as a war criminal (I know it's in the article, but IMHO it should also be on top) - any objections? 84.242.86.47 15:45, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Tiso was not a war criminal.He is not on the international war criminal list and he was not tried as a war criminal.--91.127.139.78 14:02, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
The early life section has the following problems:
1) There is no evidence that Tiso "spoke out against his fellow Slovaks." He was, however, loyal to the Hungarian state and tended to distance himself from Slovak nationalists. This pattern probably said more about Tiso's deeply held religious beliefs and career ambitions then it did about his nationalist identity.
2) The sequence of Tiso's clerical appointments should be: assistant priest in Oscadnica (1910); assistant priest in Rajec (1911); assistant priest in Banovce (1913); military chaplain (1914-1915); spiritual director of the Nitra seminary (1915-1921). Later, he also served as professor of religion and as the diocesan librarian; personal secretary of Bishop Karol Kmetko (1921-1923); professor of religion in Nitra (1923-1924); parish priest then dean of Banovce (1924-1945).
Tiso taught religion at the Piarist High School in Nitra between 1915 and 1918. He also taught religion at a local secondary school. I am not aware that this was a specifically girls' school.
3) I am aware of only one accusation of misconduct against Tiso as a teacher. In 1935, he was accused of having punished a student in 1919 for having failed to learn the Lord's Prayer in Hungarian. At the time, the charge played into a political campaign that portrayed Tiso (typically) as a "Magyaron," or Hungarian loyalist. In fact, Tiso had become a strident Slovak nationalist by 1919 and was at the forefront of efforts to Slovakize the city of Nitra. The 1935 charge prompted Tiso to sue. A lower court found in his favor, but a higher court did not. The student in question, however, reportedly testified in court that Tiso had punished him for not learning the prayer rather than for not learning it in Hungarian.
4) "Nyitrai Szemle" is not the local paper in Banovce but (not surprisingly) in Nitra (Nyitra). In addition, its correct name is Nyitramegyei Szemle. Tiso's articles, written between 1915 and 1917, never attacked Slovaks. Instead, one of them argued for the greater use of the Slovak language. The articles, however, did support the Hungarian war effort.
5) There is no evidence that Tiso "turned in Slovak soldiers." I believe that this charge is based on accusations made in 1938 that Tiso, in 1914, informed on Dusan Viest, a leading Slovak nationalist in Banovce. Viest, who was not a soldier in WWI, was imprisoned in 1914, which broke his health. I have never found any contemporary documents that would support this charge. Memoirs and contemporary letters by Viest's friends do not implicate Tiso in the affair, which apparently had more to do with Viest's connections with American Slovaks rather than with Tiso's alleged denunciation of Viest as a "pan-Slav" spy. Tiso and Viest, however, did have a conflict when both were living in Banovce.
6) Tiso had only one unsuccessful run for office, when he stood for parliament in 1920. His district won enough votes that, had his party backed him, he could have entered parliament. In 1923, he led a highly successful local campaign in Nitra, and in 1925, repeated the success in Banovce.
7) The main source cited for this section (Current Biography 1943) is highly unreliable, being influenced by wartime propaganda and the dearth of English-language scholarship on Tiso. Thus, while one can make a case that "he learned that bootlicking was a key to success," the statement is at the very least polemical.
Finally, in response to a later question on this page: While Tiso was educated by Piarists and Jesuits, he did not belong to any order.
Jesse47 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.142.88.9 (talk) 18:48, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Contents |
[edit] Non-neutrality
I do not feel that this article is sufficiently neutral. Jozef Tiso toed the Nazi party line, and there is little doubt that he would have risked his position, reputation and even life by standing up for the Jews of slovakia who were widely despised by the local population due to their superior wealth and social status (at the time most Slovaks were no more than peasants, and the region was very rural and poor). I feel this article treats Tiso too softly, especially the last section referring to President Benes and effectively portraying Benes as a merciless murderer - this must be understood in the context of the times. Listing the political parties that objected to the reprieve also reflects a non-neutral point of view. Tiso was a traitor, and was treated like any other of the time. One should not forget that pro-Tiso Slovaks fought against the SNP (slovak national uprising), and the treatment that was enacted by Tiso's regime upon countless collaborators of the partisans engaged in the uprising. I therefore do not feel this artical is neutral enough, and tried to change this as such. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Knuzeb (talk • contribs)
Following this, nothing seems to have changed. POV tag added. --83.228.182.202 (talk) 21:34, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
Because no evidence has been supplied to support the original comments - POV ttag therefore removed.--Smerus (talk) 17:44, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Tisos end
--Mt7 17:17, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Tiso was sentenced from slovak national court with slovak judges and president Benes had have right to give him amnesty, voting of goverment was only a formal matter, Benes did know from scratch outcome - that was as sure as fate. --Mt7 15:40, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
In the last days of WW2, Tiso fled to Austria and later Bavaria. He was arrested in Altoetting in july 1945, while hiding in a capchuin monastery and handed over to the new czechoslovak goverment in october 1945. Maybe, someone can add this to the article? 85.181.39.245 16:10, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Available Biography
Is there an English language biography of Tiso available, or at least a book that covers his role in the Slovakia state?
Regarding neutrality of the article, I think that there isn't enough evidence in the article of his facilitation or acquiesence of crimes against humanity that would make his guilt a simple "fact" or this being another of case of the "winners" shooting the "losers".
Philippe Petain's collaboration in crimes against humanity is better documented. and he was convicted of treason, and he was not executed in comparison. patsw 21:54, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
- Where does the article state he is guilty of crimes against humanity? From what I read it says he was charged with "internal treason, treason of the Slovak National Uprising and collaboration with Nazism". And that his death sentence and execution were controversial. I don't know anything about Petain, and I think concerns for Petain's article should be listed on that talk page.--BirgitteSB 17:36, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
-
- "Collaboration with Nazism" is not merely a matter of ideology but the mass murder of non-combatants, particularly the Jews, which now comprises about a third of the article. Someone familiar with Tiso's biography could document his role in that "collaboration" better. patsw 14:02, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
-
-
- Are you saying that he was not charged with "Collaboration with Nazism" after WWII?--BirgitteSB 14:07, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
-
Is there an English language biography of Tiso available, or at least a book that covers his role in the Slovakia state? patsw 17:00, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
- There is - look up "Slovak History" by Anton Spiesz, the English version of "Dejiny Slovenska". It's a general Slovak history book but spends a *lot* of time on Tiso, especially on the collaboration and deportation questions and on his execution. I can't judge whether it's POV though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.132.12.242 (talk) 00:06, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Tiso as Catholic Priest
There needs to be some more information on Father Tiso as a Roman Catholic priest. There's no mention of which order he belonged to, his ecclesiastic superiors or whether he was declared a Martyr of the Church. David Cheater (talk) 00:05, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] About what is this artcle ?
I agree with David Cheater No mention he was Doctor of Moral Theology etc. This article has not character of autobiography, rather it is biased article about WWII Slovak Republic. Wikipedia should be encyklopedia and not anti fascist forum. Biasad because of using - Leader instead of President - "Indepedant" in quotation when their using in ironical sense Beter is using normal statment that WWII Slovakia was puppet state without irony.
