Talk:Joy Division

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[edit] GA review

I am reviewing this article. I will have to a) read the article, b) think about it and c) make a decision. This could take a couple of days. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast 02:45, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

OK, I'm done. I enjoyed reading the article. The stumbling block are about three spots where citations are needed or very desirable.

My review comments are these:

Lead. Citations in the lead is a source of endless Wiki quibbling at both GA and FA. The relevant policy is Wikipedia:Lead section#Citations in the lead section.

"Because the lead will usually repeat information also in the body, editors should balance the desire to avoid redundant citations in the lead with the desire to aid readers in locating sources for challengeable material."

  • I would move the citation for Bernard Sumner out of the Lead and into the body of the text. The citation makes it seem as if there is some controversy over Sumner’s membership in the band.
    • It's more a footnote really. It merely explains that Sumner went by a number of different names during the tenure of the band. WesleyDodds 05:46, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Revise. “…who replaced three short-lived drummers in late 1977.” because it reads as if three drummers died young.

Formation

  • Revise. “Sumner and Hook attended a Sex Pistols show at the Manchester Lesser Free Trade Hall on 4 June 1976. While only 35 to 40 people were in attendance, …” Those who don’t know the history of the Sex Pistons would assume that this concert was a wipe-out when in reality it was a very early concert (wasn’t it the second Manchester concert?). Revise the sentences to give a feeling of being on the cutting edge. (Tangential: wasn’t there also a David Bowie concert in Manchester around the time of the Sex Pistols that was influential?)
    • Part of the gig's legend was that not many people showed up, and there's some speculation as to who actually showed up in the audience. The film 24 Hour Party People plays this up, for one. Bowie was popular among many youths in Manchester at the time, but those who were part of the emerging music scene cite that Sex Pistols show as their main inspiration.
  • Comment.”Sumner bought a guitar, Hook a bass and Mason a drum kit.” Any musical background at all? Lessons? School band?
    • None. They went out and bought instruments and learned how to play. WesleyDodds 05:46, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Between 4 June 1976 and 29 May 1977 is almost a year, there isn’t a sense of time. Should probably include one date such as when Curtis joined.
  • Citation. ” The band fired Brotherdale soon after the demo sessions, unable to work with his aggressive personality.” Needs citation.
    • The nearest footnote afterwards verifies this information. WesleyDodds 05:46, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Early releases

  • Revise. “…studio for their compliance.” Poor word choice.
  • More info.” The band made their recorded debut in June 1978 when a track of theirs was featured” (What song?)
  • More info.” In September Joy Division made their television debut performing on the local news show Granada Reports, hosted by Tony Wilson.” What song (was it Transmission or was that later?)
I don't think the specific song is important to mention in the article (it was "Shadowplay", by the way, despite what Control would have you believe). WesleyDodds 05:46, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
  • For the early releases, the name of the song would be interesting.
Please clarify what you mean here. WesleyDodds 05:46, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Unknown Pleasures

  • Question. “They supported the Buzzcocks in a 24-venue UK tour that began that October, which allowed the band to quit their regular jobs” In Touching from a Distance, Curtis suggests that the tour “forced” the band to quit their day jobs rather than “allowed”.

Closer and Curtis' suicide

Revise.” On April 8, Joy Division was set to play a gig at the Derby Hall in Bury. Curtis had attempted suicide the previous night by overdosing on phenobarbitone.[4], prescribed for his epilepsy” Mid-sentence citations are disliked. Place at end of sentence.

The last part of that sentence was added by someone along the line. Will remove (by the way, citations in the middle of sentences are fine as long as they follow punctuation). WesleyDodds 05:46, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Citation. ” Following a one-off gig in Birmingham on May 2, the band took a two-week rest in anticipation of their scheduled American tour.” Needs a citation.

Aftermath

  • Comment. ”… the group later recruited Morris' girlfriend Gillian Gilbert to round out the lineup as keyboardist.” Could mention that Gilbert was a Joy Division groupie very early on which would tie this mention in with Joy Division, otherwise it is tangential to Joy Division.

Musical style

  • Citation. Quote without citation” As Warsaw, the band played "fairly undistinguished punk-inflected hard-rock".” Needs citation.
    • Nearest citation provides quote (it's by Reynolds). WesleyDodds 05:46, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Quote. The long Sumner quote should be blocked off.
    • I feel block quotes are unsightly, and muck up the formatting of articles. WesleyDodds 05:46, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Lyrics

  • Quote. The long Morris quote should also be blocked off.

Legacy No problem.

Picture Seems OK. Fair use.

Sound samples Seem OK. Fair use.

Sources

  • The sources are good but there are others such as Middles, Mick. From Joy Divison to New Order : the Factory story. London : Virgin Books, 1996.
    • I haven't been able to find that so far, and definitely hope to track it down before I move to FAC. However, with access to the Curtis book, contemporary magazine articles, and very informative documentaries, I do wonder if it does contain anything not present in other sources that have been used here. WesleyDodds 05:46, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Overall, good but needs to have a couple of things looked at. Please provide the citations. I'm putting this in GA Hold for 7 days, to give the contributing editors a chance to make the necessary edits. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast 04:20, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Citations: Unlike print sources, in-line citations have to be a bit more specific because a future editor can insert a new sentence and orphan a quote from its source. So, although, the quotes are near citations, they need to be attached to the sentence. It is also why block quotes are better to use even if it looks ugly to you. It reduces the problem of splitting a quote and orphaning a fragment. You might want to use {{cquote}}, although some editors don't like it; WP:MoS seems ambivalent but does say it should be blocked. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast 20:51, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
If a new editor inserts new information, then a footnote is added for that information. In either case it's a reasonable to assume that everything preceeding the citation is covered by the footnote at the end of the referenced material. WesleyDodds 22:00, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
I think you assume too much about an editor inserting new info and carefully footnoting old info. Really, don't think of Wikipedia as a print article. I've argued on the citation and verifiability talk pages that I think Wikipedia has too many citations and have been told that Wikipedia is not like a print article. Everything has to be cited. Yes, it is irritating but I don't see why you are against adding a cite at the end of a quote. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast 00:13, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

GA Fail: There is a problem with the lead. The lead should be a summary of the whole article; it shouldn't have info unique to the article. Please see WP:LEAD. Citations and comments about living people must be explicitly cited. See WP:BIO and WP:CITE. Does not conform to WP:MoS. The band members section should be prose, not a list. "A long quote (more than four lines, or consisting of more than one paragraph, regardless of number of lines) is formatted as a block quotation." Please see Wikipedia:WikiProject Music/MUSTARD. The article also doesn't use enough available sources. There is actually quite a bit still to do that is going to take more than a few days so I'm revoking the seven day GA Hold and GA failing Joy Division. Sorry. Wassupwestcoast 02:22, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Macclesfield

I've just correct a relatively recent erroneous change. This was the removal of Macclesfield in "origin." I don't know why this had been changed but it should be remembered both Ian and Steve hailed from there, and the same school ... and the same as myself! ... and the same as myself! Oh, and Ian lived in Macclesfiled before the band was formed, and right the way through its existence.

They certainly came from there, but the band itself formed in Salford, before Ian Curtis or Stephen Morris joined. WesleyDodds (talk) 00:07, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Well following that line of logic then the origin is Manchester and not Salford as they formed after the SP gig at Manchester Lesser Free Trade Hall and the advert at Manchester's Virgin store. Also, if you are going to be pedantic, that is the origin of Warsaw and not Joy Division.
Salford seems like the most logical option, because when reading Touching from a Distance Deborah Curtis wasn't all that specific about where the band originally formed aside from the first three members all being from Salford. And yes, Warsaw is the same band as Joy Division, just with a different name. WesleyDodds (talk) 00:15, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Including both Salford and Macclesfield would not only be more accurate but would in no way damage the article. It would also be consistent with your logic, i.e. where the members were from (Salford & Macclesfield) rather than where the band was first formed (Manchester). As noted earlier both Stephen and Ian were from Macclesfield, and Ian remained there right through his Joy Division days. The two locations are important as the city and town are very distinctly different, including histotrically & socio-economically, and there is very little interconnection between them or the respective populations (I know that would be classed as opinion but I'm saying that on the discussion pages and not in the article, and it's true!). I am aware about the name change but added it to follow your logic of identifying the origin from the very nucleus of the band, as it could be argued that Warsaw became Joy Division and but were not the same.
I've always thought they came from Manchester. In the tv documentaries i've seen (all of them) they are always referred to as a Manchester band. They weren't formed in Macclesfield at all and to many Salford is Manchester...you step out of one into the other without noticing and it has little separate identity (except to those who live there and care). Oh and Salford is in Greater Manchester, so i'd say Manchester and leave it at that. Operating (talk) 00:29, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Salford and Manchester are two separate cities. Greater Manchester is a different entity to Manchester. And I didn't suggest JD were formed in Macclesfield, just that the origins are partly from there.
Tony Wilson describes them as a Manchester band on Granada Reports, except the guitarist who comes from Salford. You can watch that here Operating (talk) 01:11, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
To quote Mandy Rice Davies ""Well, he would, wouldn't he?" Although himself from Salford his businesses were not just based in Manchester but were delibrately branded as being from Manchester. It was in his interest for him to have JD identified as being "a Manchester band", just as Factory was a Manchester label and The Hacienda was a Manchester club. But the discussion is about the origin of JD, rather than the perception of their home (which I agree is Manchester.) I simply believe that town from where 1/2 the band came, and did not leave, constitutes a partial origin. And for the record there is no anti-Manchester prejudice on my part: not only did I spend alot of my youth in its dingier clubs but some of my family were born there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.147.252.123 (talk) 21:28, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Macclesfield, Manchester, Salford

There are many who argue that Joy Division are a Manchester band, and I personally would not overly dispute this due to the place of inspiration (LFTH) to advertising for members (Virgin in Piccadilly) to the sites of Factory to where most the public identify them as being from. However if Salford is to be listed as their origin then Macclesfield has equal rights to be listed: half the members came from Salford and half came from Macclesfield. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.42.217.73 (talk) 21:45, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

As I posted on the IP's talk page, the band formed in Salford, regardless of where the bandmembers came from. Curtis and Morris came from Macclesfield, but they joined the group when it was already in progress (in Morris' case, he was the fourth drummer). WesleyDodds (talk) 22:08, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
They didn't join Joy Division, they joined a precursor. And the please refer to the above about why many, including Tony Wilson, describe them as being from Manchester.
It was always the same band. They just changed names. Sources are unanimous on this. WesleyDodds (talk) 22:17, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
It was a band with a different name, a different drumer, a different vocalist / lyricist. Anyway it is impossible to say that a precursor that didn't include Ian Curtis were the same band. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.42.217.73 (talk) 22:45, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
No. The band was formed with no name and no vocalist in 1976. Then Ian Curtis joined. Then the band named itself Warsaw. Then Stephen Morris joined. Then the band changed its name to Joy Division. That's the history of the band; there were no "precursor groups". WesleyDodds (talk) 23:01, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
This argument means that New Order is the same group as Warsaw. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.42.217.73 (talk) 12:21, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Not necessarily. WesleyDodds (talk) 17:46, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Why? How do you differentiate between Stiff Kittens, Warsaw, Joy Division & New Order? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.157.101.239 (talk) 18:00, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Simple: Joy Division is considered by sources to have started in 1976 and ended in 1980. New Order started in 1980. WesleyDodds (talk) 18:10, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Your are right in respect of the chronology of New Order, however Joy Division started after Stiff Kittens and Warsaw. Are you really suggesting that Joy Division existed without Ian Curtis? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.153.28.17 (talk) 20:56, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Yes, the band that became Joy Division existed before Ian Curtis joined. This is not disputed by reliable sources. Also, Warsaw is considered to be the same group as Joy Division; they just changed their name. Any other stance would be in contradiction to all documentation of the group's history. WesleyDodds (talk) 01:51, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry, I may be getting confused here but: Ian Curtis was an integral part of Joy Division. The band did not exist without him - either before he joined or after his death. Would you agree or disagree with that? Also what are these "reliable sources" to which you keep refering? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.149.105.145 (talk) 13:51, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
I've been saying repeatedly, I've been referring to Touching from a Distance, which is the definitive source on Joy Division. In that book Ian Curtis is described as joining the band in progress. You're basing your argument on some very faulty logic. WesleyDodds (talk) 21:45, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
Where does it say that Joy Division were formed in Salford? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.157.126.79 (talk) 21:54, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

(unindent) That's part of the problem; it doesn't explicitly say where the band formed. But it does say that is was formed by Bernard Sumner, Peter Hook, and Terry Mason (all of whom were from Salford, despite Tony Wilson's ill-informed commentary on TV that only Sumner was from Salford) and that Ian Curtis joined the group after it had been together for a bit. WesleyDodds (talk) 22:06, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

So you don't actually know. Nor can you provide a reference. It is your opinion. And your opinion isn't any more valid than anybody elses. Operating (talk) 13:01, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
It's established that it's definitely not Macclesfield, because the group had started before either Curtis or Morris joined, and none of the people in the band at the time were from that town. The only viable options are Salford or Manchester. WesleyDodds (talk) 23:54, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
The band formed in Salford, according to my sources (e.g. Martin Strong's books). Where individual members were born isn't the issue here.--Michig (talk) 08:02, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

The description for the "origin" field of the Template:Infobox Musical artist states that the field is for "where the group was founded". --JD554 (talk) 09:07, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Then that would be Manchester —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.42.217.73 (talk) 12:22, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Macclesfield, Manchester, Salford - Part Deux

Please consider:

All three Where were Joy Division from?

Ian PCurtis, Old Trafford, Manchester
Peter Hook, Salford
Stepehn Morris, Macclesfield
Bernard Sumner, Lower Broughton, Salford

ref. http://www.iancurtis.org/faq/103.html


To include Macclesfield Ian Curtis lived most of his life in Macclesfield http://www.iancurtis.org/biography/IanCurtis.html

The principal members were Ian Curtis (b. July 15, 1956, Macclesfield, Cheshire, ref. http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9105680/Joy-DivisionNew-Order


Manchester the idea of creating the band came on Tuesday 20 July 1976, after a Sex Pistols concert held at The Free Trade Hall in Manchester. ref. http://www.iancurtis.org/faq/105.html

Joy Division were a UK band based in Manchester ref. http://www.iancurtis.org/faq/100.html

This story begins on July 20th 1976, when the Sex Pistols played at the Lesser Free Trade Hall in Manchester, supported by local bands Slaughter and the Dogs and the Buzzcocks (making their debut). According to legend, this gig inspired Joy Division to buy guitars and form a band. ref. http://www.joydiv.org/hist2.htm

Joy Division was a rock music band formed in 1977 in Manchester. ref. http://www.lyricsfreak.com/j/joy+division/

Formed in the industrial city of Manchester, Joy Division marked a unique turning point in popular music ref. http://www.cinematical.com/2007/09/09/tiff-review-joy-division/

On June 4 1976, four young men from ruined, post-industrial Manchester, England went to see a Sex Pistols show at the Manchester Lesser Free Trade Hall. Inspired by the gig that is now credited with igniting the Manchester music scene, they formed what was to become one of the world's most influential bands, Joy Division. ref. http://www.joydivisionmovie.co.uk/

... Mancunian rock band Joy Division ... ref. http://www.factoryrecords.net/

when London’s foremost punk rock band The Sex Pistols played the Manchester Free Trade Hall.

... The Sex Pistols played the Manchester Free Trade Hall. Peter decided to attend,inviting Bernard and mutual friend Terry Mason along for the night ... They decided to form a band of their own, simply to liven up their spare time. ref. http://www.prideofmanchester.com/music/joydivision-biography.htm

Joy Division fans have been spoilt for cinematic choice over the past six months. Despite the fact that the seminal Manchester outfit ref. http://www.rte.ie/arts/2008/0501/joydivision.html Joy Division were a post-punk band formed in 1976 in Manchester, UK. ref. http://www.last.fm/music/Joy+Division —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.149.105.145 (talk) 14:58, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

There are plenty of websites that say Salford as well - see here.
PS. Can you please correctly sign your additions to talk pages by typing 4 tildes (~~~~) after what you've typed. --JD554 (talk) 19:37, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
Hi - Using this technique:
  • +"joy division" +formed +manchester returns 50,900 hits. [1]
  • +"joy division" +formed +macclesfield returns 2,680 hits. [2]
  • +"joy division" +formed +salford returns 662 hits. [3]
So It's Manchester!
Hi guys - please see that I'm just trying to correctly reflect the facts. These may seem quiet subtle to outsiders, for example there is a huge difference between Salford, Greater Manchester and Manchester. I'm not looking for a fight. I'm not looking to win any kind of contest. I speak of someone from the area, someone who grew up with the influence of Joy Division. I'm not claiming to know any of the band myself, although I can do much better than Six degrees of separation ... a couple of one degree of separation but quite a number of two degrees of separation. My youth was the Hacienda; The Banshee; Affleck's Palace. It was accepted that Joy Division were a Manchester band, despite the individuals coming from Salford (rough as a bear's arse) and Macclesfield (up its own arse) Please do not try to re-write history. Enforcing a simplistic view is a disservice to Wikipedia, its readers and more importantly Joy Division. Let's go for a modification that covers the relatively complicated facts rather than try to enfore the over simplication, and erroneous, insistence of just Salford. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.157.126.79 (talk) 20:42, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

None of those links count as reliable sources. WesleyDodds (talk) 21:43, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

That is your opinion only. And I would say www.iancurtis.org, for example, is more reliable than Wikipedia. Also RTE is the national broadcaster of Ireland; that is to be respected.
No, this is not opinion. According to Wikipedia guidelines, these cannot be considered reliable sources. As for the RTE link, just because it says they are from Manchester doesn't mean they are. I for one used to think of them exclusively as a Manchester band until I started researching he band's history in-depth and discovered that Salford and Macclesfield aren't part of Manchester. WesleyDodds (talk) 22:09, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
And there's the problem: discovered that Salford and Macclesfield aren't part of Manchester. To too many people "Salford, Greater Manchester" means "Manchester". It's laziness on their part, but it's stuck. When sources/people say "Manchester" they really mean "Greater Manchester". It's an old bone of contention that people from Trafford, Altrincham, Salford etc hate. --JD554 (talk) 07:55, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Also, per guidelines, the status quo version of the page remains until a new consensus is reached. So stop reverting or you will be reported. Also, you're just changing the infobox but not article itself, which just makes the article inconsistent. WesleyDodds (talk) 22:18, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Goth Rock

Joy Division were never Goth Rock. They were Post-Punk and a HUGE influence on Goth Rock. I don't know a single goth fan who does not enjoy them, but that does not make them Goth Rock. Then again, the person who labeled them goth rock is the same person who did that to Skinny Puppy, so I'm not sure he knows what he is talking about. 72.94.149.141 (talk) 15:50, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

    • I was just editing based on what I saw in the Gothic rock article, the articles should be consistent with each other. I've found it's incredibly difficult to define just what goth rock is, even moreso than the other music genres. But that's a discussion for the Gothic rock talk page, not here. Stylistically, Joy Division sounds goth to me, even though they didn't dress up like idiots. But I'm not going to argue over it if others disagree. And please don't vandalize my user page. Ash Loomis (talk) 03:54, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
      • According to Goth rock, exponents of the genre include Bauhaus, The Cure, Siouxsie, etc., but not JD, so whoever is maintaining it is clear that JD aren't Goth. And as someone who was able to see all of those bands while Ian Curtis was still alive (and before those bands became whatever they went on to become), I can vouch that JD certainly were not of the same ilk. JD had an intensity that none of the others could match. Listening to recorded versions of their music may allow one to think that it feels similar, has some similar riffs, whatever, but the live version made it plain that it wasn't. If you're in any doubt, see Anton Corbijn's film 'Control'. Or ... have a look at the Cure's trajectory - see what they started with, where they went, and then where they've ended up. And compare that with JD. Robert Smith is an entertainer, Ian Curtis was something else.Eyedubya (talk) 04:16, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Cult status

If the band has indeed "cult status", as mentioned in the legacy section of the article, there should be plenty of sources that support this. The source for the paragraph with these words does not directly support it. The logic of the sentence "Despite their short career and cult status, Joy Division have exerted a wide-reaching influence." seems flawed. If the band has cult status, it is more plausible that it is influential because of this. I suggest to simply remove the words "cult status", as was reverted by User:WesleyDodds on May 24, 2008. – Ilse@ 09:31, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

The intention of the phrase "cult status" is to emphasize that the band wasn't very successful during its lifespan. WesleyDodds (talk) 10:40, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Discography

To maintain FA status, I believe the discography section should be expanded. It should at least contain the band's singles. Because the article Joy Division discography is not very long, it could possibly be merged into this article in its entirety. – Ilse@ 09:39, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

If there is a separate discography article, only studio albums are required. The article's around 30 kb, so a merge is not warranted. WesleyDodds (talk) 10:39, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Non-free music samples

Another issue that needs to be resolved in order to maintain FA status is the use of non-free music samples of songs that are scarcely or not at all discussed in the article. These songs should either be critically discussed in the article, where the sound clips can be used as illustration of the particular song and by that used to illustrate the musical style of the band in general, or they should be removed, because they fail WP:NFCC policy #8 without their discussion. – Ilse@ 10:01, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I've been meaning to expand the soundclip box descpritions for a while. I'll take care of that tomorrow. WesleyDodds (talk) 10:40, 24 May 2008 (UTC)