Talk:Journey to the West

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[edit] Buffalo Demon king inspiration

When I rewatched the movie in recent years, I found out one interesting thing: The buffalo demon king character, the greatest opponent of Sun Wukong, seems to get the inspiration not from normal buffaloes, but rather, a rare, giant wild ox called the gaur. I figure this out in the episode when the demon shows his true form, a giant black ox that superficially looks like a water buffalo, but highly resemble the gaur, both in appearance and size:


It's an interesting point, and I also happen to know that the gaur does inhabit the forests in Southern [Yunnan] province, near the border of VietNam and Laos. So it might be true, the filmakers' inspiration for the character. I think this might be added to the article, in the trivia section.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 124.149.119.42 (talk) 23:35, 9 May 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Author

This wiki is not complete without an author section. I found a page written by Liew Xiang Xiang state the author clearly. [1] --Sltan 14:58, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Basis For

Ummm....didn't this serve as a loose basis for the _Dragonball_ anime series?

Indeed it did. There's probably a whole bunch of other stuff I've forgotten to mention as well... -- Paul A 00:52 24 May 2003 (UTC)
Not only a loose basis, but the main character of the anime, Goku, is named after the Japanese transliteration of Sun Wukong's name, Son Goku.--24.152.188.86 22:00, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Any info on the language used? Style? A-giau 03:08, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I've just been visiting this article's interwiki counterparts to see if any happen to have useful images; the image I just added is the best I could find. But I note with interest that the Chinese wikipedia's primary image is a front-cover scan of one of the English translations... --Paul A 02:05, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

sun wukong was punished for his mischeiviousness by being brought into heaven, while the pig dude who accidentally knocked over a vase was stabbed one hundred times a day by a magic flying sword.

the pig was punished for coveting one of the goddess Chang'e. the vase was knocked over by Sha wujing. Xunflash 22:54, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

Journey to the West was also the basis for Uproar in Heaven (Chinese Animated Film), which has it's own page but I don't know how to link and am about to leave work.--Saisugoi 22:07, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

It's been the basis for a thousand stories in the 500+ years it's been around, really. It's like finding references to the bible in Western Culture, it's just a common part of the heritage. - 24.10.95.220 18:01, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] did some arranging

I'm new. Did a little cleanup. Intend to know if further cleaning up is needed. Don't know how to proceed. Please advise, anyone. Thanks. Sylee 04:15, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

I visited Xian this summer, and brought back a great panorama of the Great Wild Goose Pagoda, the starting and ending point of the REAL "Journey to the West".

I added the panorama to the bottom of the page. The sanskrit scrolls/religious writings brought back by Xuanzang from India were at one point stored and translated at the pagoda. According to a tourguide, Xuanzang is also buried beneath the pagoda (though I doubt it). Yan

What do you mean by "real" JTTW? --Maru (talk) 23:17, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
The Journey to the West is based on real events. Xuanzang was a real guy who really did go to India. Yan
Ah. The historical Journey to the West. --Maru (talk) 01:29, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] News of a film version

It was mentioned in a British paper today. Not clear if it will ever be shown here, but I liked the imagery. Probably takes great liberties with the plot, but it is that sort of tale. --GwydionM 20:05, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] characters

I moved "character history" from synopsis to "main characters" section. The content contradicts the articles on these characters, so it also needs to be fixed for accuracy. Bertport 21:12, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gallery

I oppose the removal of the gallery, as it provides a visual idea of what the characters would look like much better than what discriptions could do. There's no reason for its removal.--Ryz05 00:49, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Why, is there a movement afoot to remove the gallery? Bertport 14:51, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
It was removed until I put it back. I don't know who removed it, but I'm opposed to its removal.--Ryz05 14:54, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

I’m not opposed to the idea of the gallery but I am against the pictures chosen. The argument "provides a visual idea of what the characters would look" rather than descriptions is good if the pictures chosen actually matched the description. I have never seen this version of JttW and it seem they have been chosen as the submitter is a fan of the show rather than for their accuracy.

I have no problem with these pictures being here, especially in the absence of any persuasive argument that these conceptions differ significantly from cultural norms. But maybe it would be better to place them on the separate article devoted specifically to this TV series, and the present article could refer readers to that article for "a popular visual conception of the characters".
Bertport 12:33, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Out of all the tv series, you have to choose this one. The characters are pretty ugly, and the purpose of visual aid would be better served by finding paintings rather than using real life characters. --Big Wang 05:51, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I also prefer illusrations from old books rather than picures from recent TV stuff. Besides, why those picures are not seen in the TV series page? --LittleTree 23:07, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gautama or Amitabha?

We have an editing skirmish going on, as to whether Guan Yin is sent by Amitabha or Gautama. I checked the Jenner translation published by FLP. Chapter 8 is where Buddha gives Guan Yin her orders. He's just called "Buddha" or "Tathagata Buddha" in this edition. There are story elements that suggest Gautama - references to Vulture Peak, and Gautama's disciple Ananda, for instance. On the other hand, Gautama was a human being, not a god, and the Buddha in the novel is clearly a supernatural being, a god. Furthermore, he gets called "Amitofo" (Amitabha) in the 1986 Mandarin language TV series I've watched, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Chinese text says "Amitofo" consistently, and Jenner is just translating it as "Buddha". I suspect that the popular imagination captured in this novel does not distinguish between Amitabha and Gautama. Is there anyone around who can confirm or contradict that, authoritatively? If my suspicion is correct, then I think we should just say "Buddha sent Guan Yin" without specifying Gautama or Amitabha. Bertport 15:08, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

According to my Japanese translation (which uses Chinese proper nouns in the original form as far as possible), the one was called "如來" (Tathagata) in most cases, "釈迦如來" (Shakya Tathagata) or "釈迦牟尼" (Sakyamuni) in a few cases, and in an exceptional case where he introduced himself to the monkey, "I am 釈迦牟尼 (Śākyamuni), that is, 阿彌陀佛 (Āmítuó Fó, Amitabha Buddha)".
In summary, it was Gautama who sent Guan Yin. However, not as the real human being (Gautama Siddhartha) but as the legendary super being (Shakyamuni Buddha). Why he named himself "Amituo Fo" is not known (even to the researcher/translator), but he is not Amitabha as far as Gautama and Amitabha are to be treated as separate beings. And, as you say, if one confuse the two, he can be the both ;-) --LittleTree 20:05, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
I'd say the line you quote indicates that, in the world of this novel, there is no distinction between Gautama and Amitabha. How about we remove references to either in the article, and let it be just "Buddha"? Bertport 01:49, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Found another word to call him in the book, "佛祖" (the founder of Buddhism). Apart from the one single word above mentioned, he is definitely Sakyamuni/Gautama. I am not sure if the word Amitabha was put there really as his name. It might have been just a holly word (see Amitabha#Mantras, which has lost its literal meaning just like Om mani padme hum) to make his words sound sacred. I rather feel some resistance to say "there is no distinction between the two in the world of this novel", but I like your idea; to let it be just "Buddha". --LittleTree 01:18, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Link Problem?

I believe this link,

Complete novel in English adapted and edited from the Foreign Languages Press

The URL it directed to was http://www.blackmask.com/Detailed/Classics/China/The_Journey_to_The_West--Wu_Cheng-en_18328.html I would like to know whether the web site is offline, temporarily down, wrong, or just not working with my browser (Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.1). I also tried opening it in an Internet Explorer (version 7.0.5730.11). Neither worked. Astrangequark 02:09, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Feel free to remove links that are not working. Thanks for checking. bibliomaniac15 02:27, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Chinese is Wrong

Simplified Chinese: 沙悟淨; Traditional Chinese: 沙無淨

and

Simplified Chinese: 玉龙三太子; Traditional Chinese: 魚龍三太子

It's more likly 沙悟淨 is alternatively known as 沙無淨 and 玉龙三太子 alternatively known as 魚龍三太子. The way it's presented in the wiki implies 玉 translates to 魚 etc when in fact they do not. It would be better if it's presented as

Simplified Chinese: 沙悟淨; Traditional Chinese: 沙悟淨

and

Simplified Chinese: 玉龙三太子; Traditional Chinese: 玉龍三太子

06:08 Jan 24, 2007 EST

Sorry, I made those mistakes while entering them. I'm much more familiar with simplified than traditional, so that's why. bibliomaniac15 00:52, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] best english translation?

This is a novel that I've been interested in reading for a while, and I was wondering which is the better translation between Jenner, and I believe Yu is his name? Is it a good story? With pretty good characters? Also, I heard that there is a lot of poetry in the story as well. Does it tie into the main story?

Cttt —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.44.52.129 (talk) 20:34, 21 March 2007 (UTC).

I recommend the Beijing People's Literature Publishing House version by WJF Jenner, its available as a three-book edition and is based on the 1592 version of the chinese classic. It is available from the Foreign Langauge Press Beijing, copies of which are readily available on Amazon Twobells (talk) 09:00, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Some Minor Translation Problems and titles of Characters at End

I have the official Jenner translation. There are a few errors in here. In the book, the translation says that Sun Wukong means "Monkey Awakened to Emptiness". The weapon is also designated as the "Gold-Banded As You Will Cudgel". As for the four travelers, Wukong is named the "Victorious Fighting Buddha". Sanzang has been restored to his former post as the Golden Cicada. Pig is made Altar-Cleanser. As for Friar Sand, I don't remember.

--Sigmund1989 11:01, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

There is no "official" translation. Jenner is not some sort of ultimate authority on English translation of the original text. Bertport 00:51, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
My apologies. I haven't had the time to read all of the different versions. I have the version released by Beijing Press, so the translations above are the ones I have in that version. Sigmund1989 12:08, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A Notable English Adaptation?

I've long suspected that L. Frank Baum's "Wizard of Oz" is merely an adaptation of "Journey to the West", in which the role played by Dorothy is a rough approximation of the role played by Monkey. I've never felt motivated to examine additional correlations between the remaining characters (Lion, Scarecrow and Tin-Woodsman versus Pigsy, Sandy and Tripitaka) simply because the adaptation seems so loose. In general, however, the central character in both stories is set upon a journey and acquires addtional companions who share in his or her rather fantastic adventures, ultimately returning home.

Perhaps someone else would care to examine the connection between Journey to The West and Wizard of Oz in greater detail. For myself, my childhood enjoyment of Baum's adaptation ended when I read his ed-op piece calling for "extermination" of Native American peoples. (You'll find it clearly stated here at Wikipedia. see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L._Frank_Baum#American_Indian_Genocide). Personally, I wouldn't care to give Baum any further recognition, even for what seems clealy a case of plagarism. However, since the topic here is "Journey to The West", the connection probaly merits some mention. 66.15.117.20 05:25, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Seems kind of unlikely - wasn't the first Journey to the West translation Waley's excerpts? The timing seems off. The metallic allegory interpretations make much more sense to me than as a retelling of Journey to the West. --Gwern (contribs) 16:25 11 May 2007 (GMT)



I too, for some time, have had my suspicions on the link between Journey to the West and the Wizard of OZ. But to me the Tin Man is the more likely candidate for Monkey , both were frozen under a spell until the one they were to protect on the journey (Dorothy/Tripitaka) comes and realeses them. Pigsy then corresponds to Scarecrow (physical desires/no-brain), Sandy to the Cowardly Lion (mental processes/no courage) and the Horse to Toto. Each of the characters has a physical journey as well as a spiritual one and each represents a distinct part of a person's personality.

You are right that no known English translation exists before Arthur Whaley, but Baum lived in New York and could have discussed it with someone from China who had read it and who may have provided him with a short synopsis. This however is mere conjecture, but it points to something worthy of investigation. I don't think that certain distasteful views of Baum are a reason not to study this further. Athosfolk 10:25, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Stephen Chow To Make New Film

Yup, according to Hollywood reporter.com Stephen Chow of Chinese Odyssey, Kung Fu Hustle and CJ7 fame has got the go ahead to make a $100 million Journey To The West production in collaboration with China Film Group [CFG] and reportedly Will Smith will star. Blimey get me a cup of tea stat! Twobells (talk) 22:43, 14 April 2008 (UTC)