Talk:Joss Whedon

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[edit] Once more, with feeling.

"songs and lyrics for the musical episode" -- er? songs are made up of music and lyrics. So "songs and lyrics" is needless repetition. This episode was on BBC this evening, and I think it gave a credit for the music that wasn't Joss Whedon. Needs checking; I'll probably catch the repeat tomorrow night & I'll pay closer attention -- Tarquin

The script book (ISBN 0-689-85918-X) claims "words and music by Joss Whedon" on all the songs; apparently he and his wife worked out the songs while on vacation, then came back and hired a couple real composers (Jess Tobias and Christophe Beck) to arrange it. --Brion 23:18 Dec 19, 2002 (UTC)
True, bad phrasing on 'songs and lyrics.' Should be 'music and lyrics.' (my fault) The credits on the CD soundtrack concur with Brion's script book - Joss wrote the music and lyrics for everything with the exception of one instrumental piece (Dawn's Ballet), which was by Beck. Tobias and Beck did arrangement. (Joss goes into some pretty amusing details in the liner notes about how he wishes he had bothered to learn how to play a musical instrument before tackling the project!) -- Wapcaplet
It was a good episode. I think every season of Buffy has a few episodes at the start where you think "uh-oh... they've lost it / it's gone all weird / hmmm not sure I like this", and then there's an episode that makes you think "aha! this is Buffy" -- Tarquin

I thought I'd move all the info for the Musical episode in a new page, adding much more info about it, it is now at Once More, With Feeling. Lazarus Long 21:48 23 Jun 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Uncredited movie writing sources.

Hi. While adding the references to some movies Joss wrote, I realised his (uncredited :-) credits for Speed and X-Men can no longer be found on IMDB. Does anyone have any reliable sources that Joss did accually (co-)write those scripts? -- RoToRa 12:59, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

He mentions both in the interview [1] [2] he did for The Onion. chocolateboy 15:57, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Mortal Combat

Me again ;-) Someone added Mortal Kombat to the list of uncredited movies. It's not mentioned in the Onion interview. Does any one know of a source? -- RoToRa 14:10, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Intro.

I've cleaned up the intro: moving the comic book text to it's section, and removing the links to the tv series to theirs. I don't know what to do about Buffy - it should probably be mentioned in the intro, but do we then link that to the Buffy article, or to his Buffy section? I don't think Firefly (of which I'm a huge fan) and Angel should be mentioned in the intro (which should be very short, tho may include Serenity in the future). -- Jeandré, 2004-07-11t11:03z

[edit] Hill?

Does anyone have a source for Joss' middle name? The best I found was "Joss H. Whedon" at Wesleyan's site: [3] [4]. -- Jeandré, 2004-07-17t16:24z

It's an open secret :-)
chocolateboy 17:08, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)
tv.com lists Joss's birth name as Joseph Hill Whedon. --Mindbender 21:37, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Notable influences

I was reading the Trogdor article and noticed a reference to joss that I thought should be in someway included in this article.

Also, I'm a big fan of Firefly and Donnie Darko and I've noticed two significant references to donnie darko in firefly. One is when in the mrs reynolds episode, mrs reynolds refers to the cellar door. The other is when (in episode out of gas as I recall) Malcolm says, "everyone dies alone," which is what grandma death told to Donnie. Should this stuff be added to the article? Vicarious 11:11, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

---
Should this stuff be added to the article?
Yes, if a reputable source has made the connection. Otherwise it falls under the rubric of original research. If you do find a source, I'd suggest the Firefly and/or Serenity articles would be more obvious places to deposit the info.
As for the Trogdor factoid: I'd create a new Trivia section and whack it in there.
chocolateboy 15:13, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
I never liked the Original Research policy. Or I should say, how it's applied. It was created for people that invent a new physics theory that's gibberish so we could keep them off wikipedia without telling them they're idiots. I think the rule is strecthed a big too far often times. I will conceed though that I can't say with definitive certainty that joss is a fan of donnie darko. meh Vicarious 11:35, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] alpha delta phi

Does anybody knows if Whedon is really an Alpha delta phi brother?

- he doesn't appear as an alumni at the alpha delta phi-wikipedia site - a google search turned up only 10 results with two beeing the wikipedia articles itself and the rest beeing random matches that showed no connection

so I think it's better to delete the category unless somebody can pinpoint something that would make sure he's a alpha delta phi

(Sirana 15:21, 22 January 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Angel ratings

A friend just told me that Angel did have amazing ratings, it was simply not as critically acclaimed as Buffy or Firefly was. I don't know the story, can someone please drop some sources? -b 03:14, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Angel was cancelled for more complex reasons than ratings. It was all about ratings vs. profits. Although Angel's ratings were actually very good for WB, the show was very expensive compared to say Touched By an Angel which could also obtain good ratings. also Angel did not do as well in repeats as WB would have liked probably because most fans who liked the show enough to watch a repeat would buy the DVD sets instead. The article is misleading because at points in the history of Buffy and Angel, despite more attention always being focussed on Buffy, Angel was actually getting higher ratings than Buffy (though this was probably caused by the UPN always having generally lower ratings than WB). -- Paxomen 12:38, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Fearful Leader" source

Someone just added the following text:

According to an interview with Marti Noxon, the writing team for Buffy gave Joss the affectionate nickname Our Fearful Leader

Could we get a source for this? Anytime we quote from an interview, we should be sure to cite it. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 01:58, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] remove "spike movie"

i removed the sentence "He also hopes to oversee the making of a Spike movie". I believe that a movie which isn't announced by anyone and probably will never happen isn't important enough for a bio.

Sirana 17:27, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeah. [5] AlistairMcMillan 17:43, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] removed harry potter

I removed this line

"Whedon also said on August 25 2005 that he'd consider directing Harry Potter"

since the link that was provided didn't lead anywhere, i didn't find anything on google about it and it sounds pretty unlikely. Sirana 13:49, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Apparently you don't know how to use Boolean searching terms. The Leaky Cauldron Synopsis of Joss Whedon's chat with Empire Online. H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 08:11, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] specific deaths in the "death" section

131.123.57.26 removed the names of characters that are killed in whedon's show and i think he is right with that, so i put the spoiler template down. I think it isn't important enough on a bio page and it is a pretty heavy spoiler even with the template. so if nobody objects, i think the names should stay off the page...

Sirana 07:26, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Strongly agree with the removal of specific names per reasons above. -- Paxomen 14:17, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
An anon IP has just re-added the names; I'll remove them again and add a hidden-text message to discuss here before adding again. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 16:46, 10 May 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Animated Series

Are there any plans to produce the animated series and release them on DVD? Or is it truly dead?--Radaar 03:20, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Until someone offers up a considerable amount of cash.. it's looking dead(ish). See Buffy the Animated Series -- Paxomen 17:40, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lack of Basic Biographical Information

Nationality? Place of Birth? Family? I think we should be told--Mongreilf 08:35, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spoiler?

Renfield recently restored the spoiler notice to the "themes and motifs" section, with the somewhat enigmatic edit summary "(explaining the spoiler would defeat the purpose, as would a more specific placing. (2nd section))". I can only assume that this means the homosexuality section is what contains the supposed spoiler — but what is it? Willow being gay? I don't see how that revelation could "spoil" someone's enjoyment of BTVS. I'm dubious of the need for the spoiler tag at all in this article. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 17:50, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

The way the article looks now, someone's trying to provide a spoiler for feminism. I don't see what's so spoilery about Joss's position as a feminist. —scarecroe 19:04, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
If a character's sexual identity is "uncovered", i.e., presents a change from what has been previously assumed about him/her, then I would consider that a plot device. Now, which plot devices should be considered "spoilers" is a matter of opinion, but why sacrifice the enjoyment of those who'd only want Joss Whedon's background information just because you don't want to see a tag? There's nothing wrong with being conservative in this case. Renfield 19:50, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
If there's to be a spoiler tag, it should be bookended with the spoiler closer tag. Seeing as I don't know what the intended spoiler is, I can't add it myself. —scarecroe 20:25, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
I suppose that Willow's orientation is a plot device in Season 4 of Buffy, but it's one that was widely discussed at the time, and not presented as something that needed to be kept hidden — it's not a major plot twist like the ones in, say, The Sixth Sense or The Crying Game. I'll abide by whatever consensus is reached here, though.
However, if the tag is kept, I still don't understand why "a more specific placing" would defeat the purpose of the spoiler tag. It's not as if the knowledge that something in Whedon's oeuvre contains homosexual themes would reveal any specific plot point; at least, no more than the sentence "Many characters die in Whedon's shows" does. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 20:53, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Television and film have their differences. For a television series - especially one as long-running as BTVS - the focus is on the development of its characters. Information in this regard should be protected. By the time one gets to the "Homosexuality" paragraph, specific character names pop right out (let's argue about this). I'm speaking from my own experience, as a reader who's considering watching the series for the first time. Keep in mind that not everyone on this bio-page is a seasoned fan. Renfield 21:45, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Involvement with Marvel Comics

---Added a single line about his upcoming work on 'Runaways,' from Marvel. Don't have time atm to add a reference link, but it's up at Newsarama.com. 71.144.119.48 16:42, 12 September 2006 (UTC)MD

Does anyone have a source for whedon's involvement with the ending of Marvel Civil War? I don't know a whole ton about whedon or what's up with him and marvel, but I've never read this before, and it seems not to mesh with the rest of what i know about CW. 66.222.62.214 02:50, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
http://www.newsarama.com/JoeFridays/JoeFridays33.html
And I'm having trouble with the link, but on Millarworld a while back Mark wrote, "Whedon was in town and, during the summit, quite brilliantly chose the best of the four endings we'd been arguing over for the better part of a day."--Nalvage 17:26, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] spoilers in relationship section

I removed the last part of the relationship section which was: "...as we see in the deaths of Angel, Spike, and Fred," which I believe is to spoilerish for a biography.

[edit] Homosexuality in Firefly

Shouldn't there be a bit about his strong homosexuality in Firefly? Inara serves female clients, the episode with the 'whores' (used lightly), Mal is first thought to be a homosexual... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Obstructio (talk • contribs) 19:09, 4 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] 'Buffy' article will be on Wikipedia front page on March 10

It has been mentioned on the appropiate talk pages already but I felt it is also worth alerting the talk page here. The featured article, Buffy the Vampire Slayer will be on the front page of Wikipedia on March 10. That will result in much higher traffic for this article, since 'Joss Whedon' is linked and mentioned lots in the Buffy article. As of now this article has been rated only 'Start-Class' on the talk page. It also has been given the tag "contains original research or unattributed claims". It'd be great if this article received some more attention and was brought up to a higher standard before March 10. For examples of good (featured) articles of TV/film execitives, potential templates that the 'Whedon' article could follow, see James T. Aubrey, Jr., Kroger Babb, Anthony Michael Hall, Peter Jennings, and Abbas Kiarostami. -- Paxomen 16:55, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fox Broadcasting vs. 20th Century Fox

On the Serenity DVD it is stated that after Fox canceled Firefly and chose not to renew Angel after 5 seasons, Whedon's fans were "ready to break down the doors to [Fox's] office".

This is confusing. Angel was broadcast on The WB, not Fox. However, both Firefly and Angel were produced by 20th Century Fox, which is not the same thing as the Fox Network (although they are corporately related). I assume it was WB that canceled Angel and the Fox Network that canceled Firefly. Was it actually 20th Century Fox? Clconway 01:04, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Past tense?

I noticed that the part about the grassroots campaigns organized by the fans is written in the past tense. We are still keeping the franchise alive, and we're determined to get our Big Damn Trilogy. I apologize if I'm being offensive, I don't mean any. I just think that the Browncoat efforts shouldn't be regarded as dead, because we certainly don't.64.131.37.26 03:07, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More on Spoilers

In light of recent edits and Wikipedia:Spoiler (to wit: "Spoiler warnings must never be used for non-fictional subjects."), perhaps we should discuss edits to the "Common themes" section. The spoilers I can identify are as follows:

  • Willow's lesbianism, discussed above. This is a genuine character turn which might spoil, in some ways, Seasons 1-4 for new viewers. Note that Willow's romantic ups and downs with Xander and Oz are a major concern of the early seasons.
  • "As seen in Buffy, Firefly, and Angel, nearly all of the romantic relationships Whedon portrays end badly, usually in a traumatic fashion." This seems to be suitably vague, but it could be construed as a spoiler by more sensitive readers. I recommend removing this whole section, on the grounds of vacuity (these shows are serialized dramas—of course the relationships are rocky).
  • "Angel evolves as the protective father of the baby Connor in season three of Angel to his estranged father in season four to his friend in season five." I never watched Angel, so I'm not sure if this counts as a spoiler, but Angel fathering a child sure sounds spoiler-ish.

Clconway 23:21, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Need to see"

Does anybody have a source for the quote "I'd rather make a show 100 people need to see, than a show that 1000 people want to see."? I think it should be included somewhere, but I'm hesitant to put it in without a reference.--SarekOfVulcan 13:26, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Joss said this during the A&E "Biography" on Buffy the Vampire Slayer, which originally aired in 2003. The special is a bonus feature on one of the Season Six discs, where you may confirm the source. The quote should definitely be included in the article - it sums up Joss's unique creative appraoch, as well as the show's relationship with its fans, perfectly. --AMCsoldier 04:09, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Name change

Did Joseph ever legally change his name? Shouldn't this article be titled "Joseph Whedon"? Alvis 06:27, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

What his name is legally is immaterial for Wikipedia's article naming purposes, because we have a guideline to use common names. Otherwise, Cary Grant would be at Archibald Leach. Mr. Whedon uses the name "Joss Whedon" professionally, and that's the name he's known by. That's good enough for Wikipedia's purposes. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 06:38, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] LGBT

Why is this article under the LGBT category? Whedon isn't gay. He may write in characters that are gay into his shows, but in that case nearly every television show and actor who ever potrayed a gay character should be under that category, which they are notMishy dishy 01:19, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

The article is currently under Category:LGBT rights activists. This is not a category that collects gay subjects, but rather people who are recognized activists for lesbian, gay, bisexual, and/or transgendered rights, which apparently includes Whedon, based on his non-fiction correspondence and interviews. It has nothing directly to do with his fiction, although it's likely that that material reflects his ideas in this area. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 02:16, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Oh, wait. Are you referring to the "WikiProject LGBT studies" banner on this talk page? If so, I suppose Wikipedia:WikiProject LGBT studies includes Whedon because articles on LGBT activists would be a logical target for people working on "LGBT studies". ~ Jeff Q (talk) 02:20, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Joss's "appearances" on his shows

Just a thought - is it accurate to claim that Joss has "appeared" on Buffy or Firefly? Surely, he is on camera in Season 2 of Angel, but can anyone confirm that he's actually on camera in Firefly? His Buffy "appearance" was allegedly just his voice in a Season 1 episode. A mention of his "cameos" and "appearances", found in the very first paragraph of his article, may give readers a false impression - one of him clearly visible and identifiable on his shows, drawing attention to himself, when in fact his "roles" were virtually non-existent. If even the use of his voice counts as a cameo on the show, then (according to the commentary by Joss on the episode), the moans heard during Angel and Buffy's sex scene in the Season 2 episode "Innocence" constitute a Joss cameo, since he was too embarrassed to ask David Boreanaz and Sarah Michelle Gellar to record such sounds and recorded them himself. These minor inclusions in his work don't merit discussion in the very first paragraph of his article - at best, it's trivia. AMCsoldier 04:26, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Whedon's contributions to television are his writing and directing, not his tiny cameos that are only noticed after repeat viewings. I don't think his role on Veronica Mars should be included there, either -- it's not terribly encyclopedic, just trivial. The lead paragraph of that section should be entirely reworked. I can take a crack at it if there are no objections to removing the references to cameos. -- Merope 17:55, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
I removed them about a week ago, and they were promptly re-inserted (which is why I started this discussion). But, I say go for it. -- AMCsoldier 00:46 30 August 2007 (UTC)
I was probably the one that reinserted them. Basically I had seen that they were removed for not having a source, and I reinserted them when I found that they are sourced on IMDB. But, if ya'll want to stick them in a trivia section or just remove them entirely that'll be fine by me. --Wynler | Talk 14:19, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Anyone going to revise the front? If not, I'll take a stab at it. -- AMCsoldier 04:13 14 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] External links

The external links section features a reference to the interview of Joss with SuicideGirls, here. I suggest that it would be tagged with a warning or changed into another URL, as SG is a site with somewhat explicit content. UGO features another interview with Joss, here. Stoney3K 17:29, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Willow Or Xander Being Gay

The page claims that Joss knew he wanted either Willow or Xander to be gay, but couldn't decide which, and so dropped clues for each at various points. I've seen this claim on a few pages, and at various places around the net. Anyone have an actual source for it? --Nalvage 22:04, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Pretty sure he says that in one of the commentaries on the Buffy DVDs. I might be convinced to rewatch eps with commentary in order to source it. -- Merope 12:35, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] TV Work

In the TV Work section, in the first paragraph about Firefly, it says "Contractual restrictions with Fox prevented the series from being picked up and continued by another network." Is there a source for this? In the fan documentary Done the Impossible, Whedon states in an interview that he was given permission to shop the show around but was unable to find another network to pick it up. Also, the paragraph seems to talk more about the feature film Serenity than the TV show, despite being in the "Television Work" section. Agtctae (talk) 06:18, 17 January 2008 (UTC)agtctae

  • I came in here to post about that same line you mentioned. I've removed it, because it is indeed false. Much as I will never forgive them for canceling Firefly, it is true that Fox allowed Joss to shop it around to other networks (which he did) to see if they would pick it up. -- Ozzel (talk) 06:04, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Personal Life

Thia article contains a load of stuff but so so so little on the man himself, his upbringing, his family life etc. Come on contributors! Add, Add Add! --Dumbo12 (talk) 21:59, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Seriously -- it doesn't even contain the fact he took the name "Joss" because it is supposed to be Chinese for "luck". <http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,287570,00.html> —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.99.77.157 (talk) 20:58, 20 May 2008 (UTC)