Talk:Josif Pančić

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[edit] origin

Since I last checked, the origin of his family changed to "Serbian/Bunjevac", but without explanation, and made by an anonymous editor. What is the source for this? The Pančić family from Bribir was Serbian? --Joy [shallot] 20:47, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I googled a bit and found that several sources (although many of them were anonymous posts on forums) refer to Pančić as a Bunjevac, so I'll put that in. But I still don't see a Serbian connection. He is mentioned in the context of Jelačić and Matoš, and I've seen no mention of other Bunjevci from that region or time period who were reported as of Serbian ethnic origin. --Joy [shallot] 21:00, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Serbian-Bunjevac doesn't exist. It's a fiction, made by Serbian nationalists. "Bunjevac" is a Catholic Croatian from Eastern Slavonia. Bribir is at the sea. Josip was born in Croatian Catholic family. He was a CROAT. Not a Bunjevac, not a Serb. He married a Serbian girl, and became an Orthodox Christian, because of love (!), and changed his name to JosiF (Serbian name equal to Croatian JosiP). He was the first president of the Serbian Academy, and you can clearly see that this is the reason why Serbian nationalists can't accept the fact that he was a Croat. They call him "Bunjevac" and even "Serbian", but that's far from the truth. I hope you won't let the nationalists to "write the history".

I have found that Pancic was of Bunjevac origin. Bunjevci are a Catholic people living in Vojvodina province of Serbia. Some of them declare as Croats, while there are some who declare as Catholic Serbs (Serbs are usually Orthodox), or a separate Bunjevac ethnic group. The Croatian side considers Bunjevci executively as Croats, while Serbian side generally accepts them as a separate people (and Serbs are nationalists, sure!). Later Pancic declared as Serb and accepted Serbian Orthodoxy. Now, he was of Bunjevac origin (wasn't he?), no matter are Bunjevci actually Croats or a separate people. That's why I changed "Catholic Croatian family" to "Catholic Bunjevac family". Now I see it is Croatian again (so, Serbs are nationalists?). Can you make some proofs that he was not Bunjevac, but a pure Croat? --Djordje D. Bozovic 19:56, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Vidim da se zoves Djordje, pa cu ti pisati na nasem jeziku, laksemi je. Nisam nacionalist, niti smatram sve Srbe nacionalistima - ne generaliziram i nisam sovinist. Molim Te, ne stavljaj mi "rijeci u usta". Josip-Josif Pančić je rođen u zaselku Ugrini blizu Bribira, što je blizu Novog Vinodolskog. Ta se regija (od Rijeke do Paga) tada i danas zove Hrvatsko Primorje. Školovao se u Bribiru, Gospiću, Rijeci, a studirao u Pešti. Dakle, rođen je u katoličkoj obitelji u Hrvatskoj. Pa što je onda bio? Bunjevac? Bunjevci u Hrvatskom primorju? Zar Bunjevci nisu u Vojvodini? Ja smatram, i uvjeren sam duboko u to, da je Pančić rođen kao Hrvat katolik. On je to stvarno i bio. ALI, ovime ja ne smanjujem njegovo "srpstvo" i "pravoslavlje". Srbija i srpski narod bili su njegov drugi dom, njegov narod, njegova druga domovina. Ima li išta bolje od toga, da čovjek može imati dvije domovine koje jednako voli? Ono što ja smatram u vezi tog njegovog navodnog "Bunjevstva" je ovo: srpskim nacionalistima (dakle, nacionalistima, ne svim Srbima, ne većini Srba) prvi predsjednik Srpske akademije ne može nikako biti Hrvat. Oni mogu prihvatiti da je bio katolik, ali nek je onda Bunjevac. Samo da nije Hrvat. Bunjevci kao nacija ne postoje. Ali, to je druga i jako duga priča. Oprosti ako ovo vrijeđa tvoje uvriježeno mišljenje, ali ja sam duboko uvjeren u to. "Katolički Bunjevci iz Hrvatskog primorja" - e, to je bila najslabija karika u ovoj maloj srbizaciji Josifa Pančića. Evo, našao sam na jedom srpskom sajtu da je u Srbiju stigao u 32. godini života. Pa ti zaključi što god želiš. Uistinu ne želim poticati nacionalnu netrpeljivost. Ono što bi mi bilo drago jest da Srbi i Hrvati prihvate da se može biti Srbin na kojeg je ponosna Hrvatska (npr. Tesla) i da se može biti Hrvat na kojeg je ponosna Srbija (npr. Pančić). Politička nacionalistička podmetanja mi idu na živce. Jednako hrvatiziranje Tesle i anti-hrvatiziranje Pančića. Marko Puljak

Pravo govoriš. Ja ne znam sigurno da li je Pančić doista bio Bunjevac. Ja sam samo taj podatak pronašao, te ga stavio u članak. --Djordje D. Bozovic 13:46, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Pančić was a Bunjevac and here is a quote. Dr Jovan Erdeljanović, On the origin of Bunjevci, Belgrade 1930 is arguably the most serious study on the Bunjevci ever done, written by one of the most distinguished ethnologists of early 20th c. The book is written with numerous sources (as you will see later) and with material gathered in the fieldwork by the author more than hundred years ago, while traditions lived far better than today and when they were less afflicted with nationalism. The book has 408 pages and despite its title has actually a much broader scope with chapters investigating language, traditions songs etc. of Bunjevci. I will quote here two sections dealing with surnames Pančić and Pandžić, which obviously stem from the same root.

“Pančići and Pančini in Subotica from 1686 (Danica 1891 24, see Szab. II Okm. 37, Neven 1896 83, 123); catholic Pančići in Croatian Littoral (where Josip/Josif was born – my addition) (M. Milićević: Pomenik znamenitih ljudi, Beograd 1888, s. 497, Jeremić 161) and orthodox in Slavonia (Šem. Pakr. 31)

Pandžići in Bačka: in Boršod and Jankovac, from 1715 (Razpr. 112); in Subotica, from 1759 (Danica 1893 38 & 40, Neven 1896 83, 142); orthodox Pandžići or Panžići in Lika (Šem. Gor.-karl. 1883 89; Grujić 321); catholics in Brnze and orthodox in Suhač near Sinj (J. Savo); catholic Pandžići in Bosnia (Jeremić 161); orthodox Pandžići i Pandža in west and central Bosnia (Šem. Dabr. 116, 21, 39, 41; Etn. Zborn. XI 228 and XII 363); orthodox Stojan Pandžo in 1682 in Sarajevo and descended from the vicinity of Sarajevo (Skarić 55); Mohammedan Pandžići in Bosnian Krajina nad central Bosnia (Etn. Zborn. XXXV 623, 652; Filipović); Pandžići, orthodox in Slavonia (Šem. Pakr. 31). In west Bosnia orthodox village Pandže (Imenik B. H. 261). In Drobnjaci there lived an old family of Pandža on whose destiny nothing is known (A. Luburić, Drobnjaci, Beograd 1930, s. 254). By all chances they moved in central and west Bosnia and gave the name to the village Pandže and from them descend all the families with surnames Pandža, Pandžić et cetera. Two families of orthodox Pandža in Bosnia have as their family saint Đurđevdan (that is St George – my addition) (Šem. Dabr. 39 & 41) and the same saint is venerated by many from Drobnjaci. “

There you go. If you read this you will see the complexity of ethnicities in Balkans. On the other hand it is quite clear and proved that Pančići from Croatian Littoral are Bunjevci that stem from some Pandžići in Bosnia and these probably from Pandže in East Herzegovina. Therefore, I would kindly ask to correct the part at the beginning of the article.

Pančić was a catholic Bunjevac who later became orthodox Serb, same as Petar Preradović was Serb Orthodox until he became catholic and Croat (or at least Yugoslav) and he is celebrated as one of the greatest Croat poets. I don’t see why Pančić then can’t be a Serbian scientist? Please correct this or I will. --Dultz 16:42, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Ahem...not really. It is not clear and it does not prove what you claim. We do not have the sentence which clerly say "he was Bunjevac and not a Croat". Btw. you might want to know that all Bunjevci born in Croatia also consider themselves Croats. Pancic's family would be no different. Also I don't get it why this article is named "Josif Pancic"...the man was born as Josip not Josif. --Factanista 20:42, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Update: I changed the article a bit adding the fact he was Croatian and left the Bunjevac reference since it doesn't go against it. I also looked around and found out he actually changed his name and converted to Orthodox Christianity. --Factanista 21:04, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Ahem... yes. What's not clear? It does not prove my claim that Pancic was Bunjevac??? We have a sentence that he was a Bunjevac. And one more thing: you're judging the situation from 1814 on the base that "all Bunjevci born in Croatia also consider themselves Croats. Pancic's family would be no different." ??? And nowadays all Babylonians consider themselves Iraqis but that doesn't mean that Nabuhodenazar was Iraqi!! The man was surely born Josip (and that wasn't his choice), but lived his life willingly as Josif. So, Josif it is. I'll agree that Pancic is Croatian if anyone can find me some proof where he tells so. As far as his Serb feelings I'll just post this quote: (from his speech in Serbian Academy) "To preserve in the writings of Academy the purity of our beautiful language as it is given to us by the people, and as it has been defined by our great teachers Vuk Karadžić and Đuro Daničić. (...) For start we should narrow our interest to those sciences that concern Serbdom and South Slavdom and especially the lands of the Balkan peninsula." etc.--Dultz 00:31, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Because no one's sure - so little is known 'bout him. Then again if it's true - it's the more notable one. --PaxEquilibrium 18:27, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

That's the course of assimilation... people cannot be Bunjevci by nationality if they wanted to (same as with Shokci, or Muslims in Bosnia). --PaxEquilibrium 18:28, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

The problem is that Bunjevci (or Sokci) especially were not ethnic designation...they were regional sub-ethnic deisgnations...so to say. Only in recent times we have small group of Bunjevac people in Vojvodina, Serbia designating themselves as separate ethnic group...all other still consider themselves Croats. --Factanista 12:15, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Regarding Bunjevci, you can check the caption dealing with them. They are of course a sub-ethnic designation of Serbs. And Bunjevci in Vojvodina were recorded as such from the time they settled there in the 17th c and only recently (from 1945) they were forced by communist authorities to declare as Croats while the name of Bunjevci was prohibited! Check their own page at [1] and see the original document on this.--Dultz 00:31, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

They were no such thing. No one forced them anything...there are thousands of Bunjeci all over the world and they all declare themselves as Croats (save for a very small group in Serbia...suprise, suprise...), furthermore it is scientific consensus that they all originate from Croatia (Dalmatia and Herzegovina) from where they migrated north fleeing the Ottoman Turks similar as another group of Croats Šokci and similar such as Boduli who fled in a opposite direction to the islands and to Istria and coastal Croatia. --Factanista 06:56, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

What amazes me is that Factanista so openly puts the Bunyevs as a subgroup of Croats - but in the case of any Serb subgroups (e. g. Narentines, Zachlumians, Docleans, Zetans, Travunians, Canalites or even Bosnians or Montenegrins) he radically accuses it of being Serb POV. I suppose the existence of Bosniacs separate from Serbs is Croat POV. :D Don't make me laugh. Bunyevs were indeed assimilated into Croats - and the period of croatization was the strongest in Communist time; and yes - Bunyevci aren't Serbs - but they have a lot more common with them, rather than with Croats. --PaxEquilibrium 22:07, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Of course...the point and the blatant fact is that 95% of Bunjevci declare themselves as Croats (until recently it was 100%). This especially goes for those born and raised in Croatia. Those that you counted above as supposedly being Serbian are all regional designation not sub-cultural or sub-ethnic such as Bunjevci, Šokci, Janjevci or Boduli and so on. And don't make me laugh....Bunjevci having more in common with Serbs than with Croats? Thats a good one... --Factanista 13:01, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, they do - a lot of prominent Serbians are ethnic Bunyevci (great Botanist Joseph Pancic - the founder of the Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts, Blasko Rajic - a great Serbian patriot and leader of the voice of Serbian Vojvodina, national footballer Goran Bunjevcic; the other famous Bunyevs're mostly non-national [Ivan Saric, Zvonko Bogdan]). I believe that most Bunjevci live/lived in Vojvodina - you must've mixed them (probably) with the Shokci. A large number self-identify as Croats, yes - in the same manner that a large number of Montenegrins self-identify as Serbs. Did you ever hear about the Assembly of Serbs, Bunyevs and other Slavs of Vojvodina - that annexed Vojvodina to Serbia in 1918? Its vicepresident was a Bunyev... and you should visit the Bunyev's official website - it's full of Serbian patriotism and even to an extent an anti-Croat sentiment (to be frank). Despite Bunyevs existed over the centuries in Vojvodina as a distinct people, they were grouped together with Serbs. --PaxEquilibrium 19:45, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

No they do not. Bunjevci live all over the world and everywhere you go you will witness that they declare as Croats meaning not only do they have more in common with Croats - they are Croats. Only in Serbia recently (during and post Milosevic's goverment) we have a small group of Bunjevci declaring separate ethnicity. All those people you mentioned are Croats, Pančić chose to be a Serb, as for Rajić I don't know much about him, Bogdan and Sarić are Croats, Bunjevčević is from a mixed Croatian-Serbian marriage. --Factanista 19:56, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

But I could claim the same thing - that only recently they had been Croatized plainly because of the Communists (during and post the Communists). Before the croatization, Bunjevci were a separate people (perhaps closer to Serbs than to Croats). I can't understand how could they live in the world - when for almost 4 centuries they live in Vojvodina (where most of them always lived). I repeat - do not mix them with the Shokci. --PaxEquilibrium 20:43, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

No you cannot claim the same thing. --Factanista 20:57, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Oh? And why is that? --PaxEquilibrium 21:06, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Because it would be absurd to claim such a thing. --Factanista 21:11, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

That is one POV. To me it is absurd to claim that they're a "Serbian fabrication", when they only finally got their own nation (re)recognized. Can't you see that you're a bit one-sided? Applying one logic to one situation - but a totally different one to a parallel? --PaxEquilibrium 22:15, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

You are not making any sense. Anyway Bunjevci are still to this day a Croatian minority in Vojvodina and they will remain as such. --Factanista 22:27, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

What does "Croatian minority" mean? --PaxEquilibrium 22:59, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

National minority --Factanista 23:14, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Vojvodina is in Serbia, and not Croatia. --PaxEquilibrium 23:22, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Really? Didn't know that... --Factanista 23:23, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

You would've said "Serbian minority" or "Vojvodinian minority" - but you said "Croatian minority" instead. :) --PaxEquilibrium 12:31, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Explanations for revert

1. See WP:MOSBIO#Opening paragraph: "Ethnicity should generally not be emphasized in the opening". His Croatian origin is mentioned right in the next sentence.
2. Frankly, I don't get the whole "Bunjevci" thing: he was born in Croatia, lived in Central Serbia, I don't know what was his personal ethnic affiliation, and Bunjevci live in Bačka. They probably arived there from the Dalmatian hinterland in 16th century, but that does not Pančić a Bunjevac make? Or is it a part of "Bunjevac"="Serb Catholic" game? I don't get it. Duja►

[edit] Herzegovina and Military Frontier

I don't think we have been presented with enough evidence that his family originates from Herzegovina, We've been presented with some speculation that people with surnames Pandža and Pandžić might all hail from the same village of Drobnjaci (without even saying that this village is in Herzegovina) via Bosnia. Firstly, Pančić and Pandžić is not the same, and even if it were, pandža is an ordinary word for claw or paw, making the claim that all people with the surname share the same origins less probable. As I haven't found any confirmation of the claim in any traditional sources, I have removed it until it is more substantiated.

Bribir was never part of the Military Frontier [2]. Senj was, but Bribir isn't that close to Senj anyway so I changed the reference to the much nearer Crikvenica which is also larger than Senj. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nylad (talk • contribs) 23:13, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 07:11, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Serbian botanist

I would like to hear from those who keep editing this page, and presenting Pančić as "Croatian" or "Serbo-Croatian" botanist. What makes him "Croatian"? Nationality? Croatian state didn't exist then. Region he lived and worked in? Again, he neither lived nor worked in Croatian part of Austria-Hungary. He lived, worked and made his professional career in the independent state of Serbia. Ethnicity? He wasn't a Croat, nor he ever referred to himself as such. Anyway, that would only make him a Serbian botanist of Croatian origin/ethnicity, and not a "Serbo-Croatian" or even "Croatian" botanist.

What makes him Serbian? Nationality and region he lived in. He lived, worked and made his career in Serbian state, was part of its institutions and had actively participated in social and scientific life of Serbia of his time. Region he lived in. He lived within borders of modern Serbia, so there's no reason to "share" him with anyone else. Ethnic affiliation. He considered and declared himself as Serb. Ethnic origin? Some say that he is of Bunjevac ethnic origin. I see no problem there, if that is true. The thing is he simply just wasn't a Croat, and there's no way to make him one.

If Croats claim him (with absolutely no reason) because they share the same language, culture and ethnic origin with many Serbs as Josif Pančić, I insist that he be presented as Serbo-Croato-Bosniako-Montenegrine-Bunjevac botanist, and that his name, within brackets, be presented in languages of all mentioned modern nations. For example: Josif Pančić (Serbian: Josif Pančić, Serbian Cyrillic: Јосиф Панчић, Croatian: Josif Pančić, Bosnian: Josif Pančić, Bunjevac: Josif Pančić, Montenegrin: Josif Pančić). Perhaps only then it will strike everyone what nonsensical edits are being made. Marechiel (talk) 10:29, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

You are again saying user:NovaNova b......You need to start finding new statements for your puppets. Croatia has not existed ???? Maybe in this words we can find little historical jealousy ? If Kingdom of Croatia has not existed why title of Francis II, Holy Roman Emperor is king of Croatia ? --Rjecina (talk) 08:09, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

That is not the point, and stop reacting dramatically with series of question marks, supposed surprise and, again repeated senseless accusations about my account. It's childish and immature. I stated the fact that Croatia wasn't an independent nation in that time. Of course it existed, but I wanted to present what could be named as "Croatian". At that time, since Croatian state (and not country or people) didn't exist, in order for one to be named "Croatian" would be at least that he was a subject of Austrian-Hungarian state, of Croatian ethnicity and engaged solely in Croatian cultural/scientific life in Austria-Hungary. Josip/Josif Pancic did neither of that. First, he lived, worked and was a subject of Serbian state, engaged in Serbian cultural/scientific life, which makes him

Serbian, in the sense of nationality. He could, and I stress it as but a mere possibility, be named as Serbian botanist of Croatian ethnicity, but, oh what a surprise, he never declared him as a Croat, but he did as a Serb. On what basis is he "Serbo-Croatian"? Because some Croats claim that he is of Croatian ethnicity? But that aside, he wasn't Croatian in the sense of nationality/state. Example: try to present Sándor Petőfi as "Serbo-Hungarian" poet. You would be laughed at, just as you are now. And Petőfi was at least Serbian by birth, while it's highly argumentative if Pančić was a Croat at all. 79.101.65.24 (talk) 09:45, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

P.S. Austrian Emperors were crowned as dukes of Grand-Dukedom Serbia as well. 79.101.65.24 (talk) 09:45, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Can you please show me on wiki where is writen that Francis II, Holy Roman Emperor is great duke of Serbia ?

You can speak what you want but Croatia has been kingdom which has choosen Habsburg for rules. Even in 19 century Croatia is kingdom which is having official language different of Austria (example). How is this possible if Croatia do not exist ?

Can you please tell me which is similarity between Sándor Petőfi and Josif Pančić. First has from begining declared himself like Hungarian and second has declared himself to be Serb only after recieving job in Serbia when he has been 30 years old. Maybe I am mistaking but Josif Pančić has been nationalistic opportunist--Rjecina (talk) 10:37, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

1. I said 'Austrian Emperors', and not 'Francis II'. Namely, last two emperors Franz Joseph I and Charles I. See the appropriate articles on Wikipedia. But that all is not the point - what does Francis II have to do with Pančić not living and working in Croatia among Croats, but in Serbia?

2. First, it's chosen, not 'choosen'. Second, don't try to bring ever-occurring issue of Croatian history when it's not the point, and stop imputing me that I said that Croats didn't exist. I didn't say so. I only said that there's no proof that Pančić was one, and even if he was, it wouldn't make him Croatian or Serbo-Croatian botanist, but only Serbian botanist of Croatian ethnicity. Since there's no reference about his supposed Croatdom, and plenty of those about his Serbom, there's no reason even for that. Third, I was speaking about nation as modern concept of independent nation/state, and not as ethnicity.

3. There is no similarity between Pančić and Petőfi. Petőfi is a confirmed Orthodox Serb by birth, and Magyar and Hungarian by ethnic/national affiliation, while Pančić was Serb and Serbian by ethnic/national affiliation, while there's no proof that he ever considered him a Croat, since there were Catholic Serbs in the area as well. And Bunjevci as well, someone seems to bring them up also. It is true that Petőfi was Hungarian since his youth (but he was also Hungarian-born), and that Pančić went to Serbia only after his university studies, but beside being Croatia-born (more precisely: contemporary Croatian-born) as many other Serbs - what makes him an ethnic Croat? Nothing.

4. Conclusion: he wasn't a Croatian scientist, period. If there is solid proof that he was born as Croat by ethnicity, and not Serb or Bunjevac, it should be mentioned as such, that he was born as one, and that he changed his ethnic affiliation. But beside his conversion from Catholicism to Eastern-Orthodoxy, we have no data on that. Marechiel (talk) 23:26, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Josif is not "Serbian equivalent" to Josip, but common Eastern-Orthodox

Both names Josip and Josif exist among Serbs, and are recognized as Serbian names, and are variations of Biblical name Joseph. Josif (with F) is official version insisted by Eastern-Orthodox Church, while Josip (with P) is popular folk version, where non-Slavic F is replaced with more easily pronounced P, as in Filip -> Pilip (Philip). Josif Pančić changed his name from Josip to Josif as part of his conversion to Eastern-Orthodoxy, and not because Josip is a "Serbian equivalent". There are, and there were Serbs named Josip, as well as there is an existing Serbian surname Josipović. Marechiel (talk) 10:58, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Another F->P example is the name Stefan, with popular folk pronunciation as Stepan, Stjepan and Stipan, and derivates as Stevan and Montenegrin Šćepan. Today, a formerly popular name Stepan is extremely rare among Serbs, while Stjepan and Stipan are extinct and existing only with Croats. Only surnames Stjepanović and Stipanović and 19th century poetry testify about Serbs named Stjepan and Stipan. Marechiel (talk) 23:32, 13 April 2008 (UTC)