Talk:Joshua Harris

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Anybody know anything about his education? --Emplynx 03:48, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I know he was homeschooled, but I do not know what he did for college. --Mschel 23:30, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

OK, I just found out that he never went to college, in fact he did not officially graduate from high school. --Mschel 00:24, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

He honorarily graduated from high-school today! :-D --Mschel 03:10, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Contents 1 Opinion of Joshua Harris 2 Thanks for the work 3 What do you propose then? 4 Contradiction? 5 Heritage 6 Middle name

[edit] Opinion of Joshua Harris

Ah, I see although people have been using the "talk" section for "discussion about the article's subject" for years now, the panel of wikipedia nerds who think they run everything have at some point deemed this unacceptable. My bad, sorry I haven't taken the time to memorize all the "wiki-rules." I have a life, (possibly because I never bought into the teachings of Joshua Harris.) I retract my rant and offer my apologies.

[edit] Thanks for the work

Thanks for fixing up and expanding the article, it looks great now. :-) - Aerobird 02:38, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What do you propose then?

Ok dude, if you think IKDGB did more harm than good, and you agree that the secular world is sending the wrong messages to our youngsters, what are you going to do about it? I think Harris did good by trying to come up with a set of transparent rules that anyone could follow. Leaving such an important topic as looking for "your other half" unregulated or to the individual discretion is no good either. There needs to be a clear roadmap for youngsters to follow, and courtship is that roadmap. "Getting to know" the opposite sex as you say can be (mis)interpreted in many different ways. It's better to have a procedural way of attaining such an objective than to leave it entirely to young people to find out about it.

CAROLYN MAHANEY I have created a page detailing Carolyn and her ministry. Since she is involved with this ministry, I would greatly appreciate any reviews or critiques of her page ("Carolyn Mahaney"). This is my first time contributing to Wikipedia and I would love any feedback you could provide! Thanks!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sbittner (talk • contribs) 18:25, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I would say that IKDG did both harm and good. Had Joshua Harris been more honest about the pitfalls of his group approach then maybe the book wouldn't have done nearly the harm that it did. Harris's noted all the defects he saw with dating but failed to acknowledge any of the problems that is own church had experienced with his approach. It baffles me that he failed to leave that out. Even on his "update" on his web page he fails to acknowledge problems that he recently noticed at his own church that he indicated in messages on courtship.

I am also baffled why so many people took a book written as his own testimony of what worked for him in his circumstances and age and thought they should apply to all despite differing ages etc.

Here are some sites with some good discussion about the book:

http://sgmsurvivors.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=15

http://www.ikdg.wordpress.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by Geocacher301 (talk • contribs)

I bet with a title like "Sovereign Grace Ministries Survivors" you will get great neutral discussions without a hint of bias. --Mark (Mschel) 12:54, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Mschel

I know you are young but sadly your attitude characterizes what we have seen of SG people including some leadership that have posted to the above forum/blog. It certainly is geared towards people who have had bad experiences with Sovereign Grace but it sad when people like you are so quick to dismiss even the possibility that there are problems including with the "kissing dating goodbye" approach that need to be addressed.

Interesting how you took away part of your comment.

One other thought I have is why are you so concerned about a "neutral" discussion. If you read what I wrote above it is obvious that Josh Harris isn't. Don't people need to hear both sides of an issue? Harris isn't being forthcoming about the problems he has had in his own church with the system he promotes. Somebody needs to share the other side about the problems and defects that have ocurred with the system he promotes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Geocacher301 (talk • contribs)

I took away part of my comment because I decided it was not very civil. Sorry about that. I am becoming somewhat aggravated for various reasons, and it is starting to show. Anyway I have a question for you. Is the motivation for your editing to benefit Wikipedia or to promote your opinion? I am asking this because I noticed that you have only edited SGM related articles, and that seems a little strange. --Mark (Mschel) 18:29, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Mschel

I have some thought to your question. First off, I wonder if your frustration is due to various SGM related pages losing their "press release" appearance to having a more objective look that includes various aspects of their history not mentioned on the SG website. I am sure it is hard seeing this since you grew up in SG.

Along those same lines I contribute to Wiki where I have expertise. In areas outside of SG related pages where I do have expertise I don't see much if anything I can add.

My motivation for what I have posted on SG related pages is to provide proper balance. For example with "kissing dating goodbye" Harris gives a very misbalanced report on his system leaving one to think that his approach has no problems even though numerous problems have occurred in his own church's history. He conveniently "forgets" to mention these. When one leaves this out people don't look for the "landmines" and it is no wonder problems that could have been avoided continue.

Here are a few good sites that elaborate more on what is mentioned above:

http://ikdg.wordpress.com/2008/01/05/does-only-dating-have-defects-courtshipgroups-are-defect-free/

http://ikdg.wordpress.com/2008/04/18/examples-of-foolishness-that-can-happen-with-kissing-dating-goodbye/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Geocacher301 (talk • contribs)

Yes, I am very frustrated with this situation. This is because I am having to deal with meat-puppets, and it is hard to prove for sure when someone is a meat. I have trouble believing their is nothing else you can contribute to. Even I who can't write a decent paper to save my life have found many areas where I could easily help out. You don't need to be an expert for most things. For instance, you could write a politicians biography even if you know next to nothing about politics. As for good balance, you as someone who has an extremely strong POV on this issue might not be the best judge. I am not going to reply to the last part of your comment as Wikipedia is really not the place for it. You can say what you want on the myriad of blogs and forums you use to spread your position, but you can't in Wikipedia articles. By the way, I am going to avoid editing the actual articles from now on, as I also do have my fair share of POV on the issue. --Mark (Mschel) 21:56, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Mschel

I am not sure why of all the people posting other sides and the darker side of your group's history you you are singling me out like this. I haven't even posted that much especially compared to others who are posting about your group. Another reason I don't post a whole lot on Wiki is my time is limited.Geocacher301 (talk) 05:05, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Contradiction?

"As a teenager, Harris published New Attitude, a magazine aimed at fellow home-schoolers, from 1994 to 1997." It also says he was born in 1974. Wouldn't he be 20 in 1994 in that case? I mean, do the math here...--69.234.189.115 (talk) 19:35, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Heritage

I know I've asked this about Vanessa Hudgens, the Jonas Brothers, etc, but do you think that he should be put on the list of Eurasians? The article doesn't say the ethnicity, but Sono sounds Japanese and the appearance of him and his kids is pretty Eurasian. --69.234.189.115 (talk) 19:42, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Middle name

I just found out I was wrong about his sons middle name being Eugene, sorry. But I also happened to find out for sure that Mr. Harris' middle name is Eugene. So sorry for the misleading edit summery. --Mark (Mschel) 22:51, 20 May 2008 (UTC)