Talk:Joseph Szigeti

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Featured article star Joseph Szigeti is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.
Biography Portal
Featured article FA This article has been rated as FA-Class on the project's quality scale. [FAQ]
This article is supported by WikiProject Musicians, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed biographical guide to musicians and musical groups on Wikipedia.
Joseph Szigeti is within the scope of WikiProject Classical music, which aims to improve, expand, cleanup, and maintain all articles related to classical music, that aren't covered by other classical music related projects. Please read the guidelines for writing and maintaining articles. To participate, you can edit this article or visit the project page for more details.
This article has been listed as a featured article.

This article is within the scope of the Hungarian culture WikiProject, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's articles related to the culture of Hungary.

If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.

Contents

[edit] older entries

This article sucks. You can help Wikipedia (and Szigeti) by adding more information, fixing bad style and grammar, and generally cleaning it up. :) Sorry for the sloppiness, but this was all I could do! K. Lastochka 19:03, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

...almost a year after my original cry for help, here I am fixing up the article. Firstly: I just added a photo, so no need to have the wikiproject box requesting a pic. :) Secondly, thanks to whoever added the infobox, but I have to be frank, I hate infoboxes. I think they're ugly and don't really add much in the way of useful information. I'm not going to boorishly revert the addition, but I will ask politely: is it OK if I remove it? K. Lásztocska 04:59, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Szigeti - a few notes which may or may not be useful? :-

  • He was an adjudicator at the Carl Flesch competitions in the 1960s.
  • First performed the Prokofiev op 19 concerto at International Society for Contemporary Music in prague 21 July 1924 under Fritz Reiner. - originally saw the MS at house of Jozéf Turczyński. Toured Europe with it. Recorded it first August 1935 w Thomas Beecham, London Philharmonic Orch, last 1906 w Herbert Menges and London Symphony Orch.
  • Bartok dedicated his Rhapsody no 1 (op 5 no 1) to Szigeti in 1928
  • Szigeti first saw Bartok at a concert in 1903, and struck up a friendship despite antipathy of hubay to B's music. hence the great legacy of their concerts and recordings together.

(These notes are from a HMV sleevenote to HLM 7016, written by Bill Newman, 1972, re-issue of the 1935 prokofiev etc.) - Any use? Dr Steven Plunkett 17:09, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] annoying template

I endorse the removal of the "under construction" template--I put it there when I was working on it, but then real life took over, I was off-wiki for a while, and I forgot about the template. I really will finish this article soon.....K. Lásztocska 18:04, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] my copyedits

Dont take them personally - You have done a fantastic job, KL and its ironic, I was thinking that since this is not too far off your present studies it would be only fair for you to get academic credit for this - however it would also be bonehead as it is the first cardinal sin to source the Wiki, much less turn in an entire paper "look what I wrote..." even though it would be true. I have two comments at this point - was he married to the same woman for all those years? Its important in a bio, especially for the lifestyle and all the moving they did. Secondly, the passage about the book is overkill here, and is better off as a separate article, linked from this one, with maybe one or two paragraphs synopsis. You have the makings of a FA. If I wanted to know more about him, I would be well served by reading this. Here's what to do - tidy it up, let it simmer for awhile, ask some well-placed advice from other Biography mavens and then put it up for FA. You get a star by your name if you do, and you deserve one. udv. István 18:29, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! Your copyedits are much appreciated, as is the advice. To reply to your points:
  • I was afraid that the section about his books rambled a bit, although I want to make sure to keep enough of it in. Especially in Szigeti on the Violin, he reveals a lot about his personal philosophy of music and violin playing, which (in my opinion)is very important for his biography. That said, I will try trimming it down.
  • Yes, he was indeed married to the same woman for all those years, and as far as I can tell their marriage was a very happy and harmonious one. There are some nice vignettes of their life together in his autobiography, maybe I'll try to work in a few mentions of domestic life somewhere.
I had a good laugh at your remark about how I should get academic credit for this, especially because just a few days ago, my obnoxious Music History professor bellowed "Don't ever look up anything on Wikipedia if you expect to stay in this class! WIKIPEDIA SUCKS ROCKS!!" after which everyone burst out laughing and I sat fuming. :)
Anyway, thanks again, you are very helpful and much appreciated as usual! :-) K. Lásztocska 21:48, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
You had a music history professor who actually said that? Did she/he name any specific articles? Enquiring minds want to know ... seeing as I write hundreds of them. That's a little bit disturbing. Antandrus (talk) 04:28, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
No, nothing specific, just your basic professorial bandwagon of Wikipedia-bashing. :-) K. Lásztocskatalk 05:03, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Wanda Ostrowska

We say she was of Russian parentage, and that info appears elsewhere on the web, yet her surname looks more like Polish or Czech. The female counterpart of the Russian surname Ostrovsky is Ostrovskaya (or, in German transliteration, Ostrowskaja). Anybody know for sure? -- JackofOz 08:28, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I know, it's a Polish name. However, according to Szigeti himself in his own memoirs, she was Russian. K. Lásztocska 14:17, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] snap review

I don't think it's ready for FAC. (dont take it personally) This is a biography of the man, not just his legacy or significance to music. I would expect his family and personal life be covered more as many people researching him would be slightly disappointed at this point.

The lead is just a little too fawning and bare - it seems there is missing a concise statement as to why he has achieved the notoriety he did. The verbiage (if you ignore the specifics like "violin" and "Hungarian") could be equally applicable to many musicians. I think its fair game to mention Bartók and Stokowski in the lead as they are known to the English-speaking masses, at least those with a modicum of education or culture. (you don't want to bore the pants off your audience)(I suppose that depends on the audience)

Early life - very well presented - only some trimming needed, and the prodigy paragraph needs a reference. Also what is meant by "the Academy"? Is it Hubay's studio? Im going to just stop right here. I get carried away sometimes doing this and it all seems overwhelming in the end and the one thing you should know is that this page is well written and on its way to FAC. Right now I have to give something else the right-of-way. István 16:50, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Items as I find them

Grove has 19 Feb as his date of death. Did the New York Times give the 20th as the date of death, or was that the date the obituary ran? Antandrus (talk) 04:30, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Yikes. Yikes yikes yikes. You're totally right, it was the 19th. Thanks for catching that one, that's an utter howler...K. Lásztocskatalk 04:52, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
You're welcome.  :) Good article! Antandrus (talk) 05:19, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Jewish

Is it really necessary to mention his religion in the lead, along with nationality? I have some objections to doing so:

  • First of all, in his own autobiography he never mentions his religion or that of his family, leading me to believe it was not a central part of his life (i.e. he may have been of Jewish heritage but not observant.)
  • Which leads me to my second point, the official status of the Jews in Hungary at that time. Unlike in many other Eastern European countries, "Jewish" was not considered an ethnicity but only a religion--i.e. Szigeti would not have been officially classified as "a Jew" but rather "a Hungarian of the Mosaic faith."

I'm open to counter-arguments, but I think it's important enough that it's something that should be discussed. K. Lásztocskatalk 21:10, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Since you ask...I don't think the point is significant enough for the lead, not in the English Wikipedia. If he were vegetarian, diabetic, etc. it would not belong in the lead either. As you well know, the irony is that it would be more remarkable for a 20th Century European top world-class violinist to *not* have been Jewish. But unlike central Europeans, English speaking readers will not associate religion/ethnicity with and individual's virtuosity or significance, especially in a field which is objectively seen as pan-cultural (orchestral music/violin). We may prefer our reggae artists to be Jamaican but will listen to anyone pick up a violin and play Brahms if they can do it well - ethnicity aside. Alas, poor Europe does not always see it the same way and often insists on tagging the Jewish practitioner. But this is EnWiki and putting the religion in the lead is putting too fine a point on it.István (talk) 15:28, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Generally, ethnicity (and ethnicity/religion in this case), unlike nationality, should not be included in lead paragraphs. See Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies). Dahn (talk) 23:03, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Now it is not written anywhere that he was Jewish, except for the categories. bogdan (talk) 13:04, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
I myself pointed that out to KL on the FAC page. I should add that I never viewed this as a major problem for the article, but, if it is a fact (and it probably is), some mention of it should eventually be made in the text. Also: it is quite common that users who were not involved in editing the article check the inclusion into categories against what the text says, so the categories may be removed altogether if not backed by a mention in the text. Presumably, this detail is already used in one of the sources used? If not, I'm sure a reliable source could be found to attest his Jewishness.
At the time I was writing my first post in this section, I had not noticed that the link for his nationality led to Hungarian people. This, per the same convention I cited before, would only be applicable to some articles, and they would be the exception to the rule. Meaning that the link for "Hungarian" should be to "Hungary", regardless of whether the subject of the article was Hungarian or Jewish - his citizenship takes priority over the ethnicity, and the ethnicity is usually mentioned in the body of text. In this case, I might suggest: "Szigeti was born Joseph "Jóska" Singer<ref>Campbell, p. 159</ref> to a [[History of the Jews in Hungary|Jewish]] [or, alternatively, [[History of the Jews in Hungary|Jewish Hungarian]]] family<add reference> in Budapest, Austria-Hungary." I personally tend making links for "Jewish" to the regional subchapters, because they are more precise than Jewish, and because, technically, the "History of the Jews in x country" is the equivalent of "xian Jewish" (see Hungarian Jewish). These are just suggestions, and, let me add, none of the issues they answer to makes this article less of a gem. Dahn (talk) 13:19, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
The thing is, I didn't even know he was Jewish until somebody added that category. I guess if his birth family name was "Singer" he probably was, but I hadn't come across mention of it in any other sources. I didn't want to delete the category because I would then a) look like an antisemite and b) be removing what could well be a perfectly true fact. Does anyone have a source for this whole Jewish thing? K. Lásztocskatalk 16:38, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Here's what I could find: the editor's response to a query in Time, according to which "Hungarian-born Joseph Szigeti, 50, famed "violinist's violinist" and ardent Benny Goodman fan, is also Jewish"; page 4 of an YIVO article (note: the text does not have page numbers, so I'm going by the Acrobat count). These should come in handy for references, in case you want to add them to the text, or I could add them myself if you should want me to do it. Dahn (talk) 18:32, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] References format

I took the liberty of editing the references in part. I listed the references that are cited several times in the text in a final section on references, and introduced them only by name and page/chapter in the Notes section. This is what is generally used, and I think it is for the best: when you mention a reference by its full name in the first citation and by name and page in subsequent citation, you may make it very hard for editors to move parts of the text around, or may end up with a mess (for example, editors may forget to change the references accordingly when moving text or adding more from a source, which means that the full name of the reference in a citation may end after the shortened form in another citation). It is also much easier to follow. Dahn (talk) 23:03, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, your work is much appreciated. I'm horrible with MoS stuff... :) K. Lásztocskatalk 04:15, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Don't mention it. I'm glad I added my small contribution to a superb article. Dahn (talk) 08:53, 13 February 2008 (UTC)