Talk:Joseph Smith, Jr.

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	Joseph Smith, Jr. is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article milestones below to see why the nomination failed. For older candidates, please check the archive.
Article milestones Date Process Result August 11, 2005 Peer review Reviewed December 14, 2005 Featured article candidate Not promoted Current Status: Former featured article candidate

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To-do:

edit · history · watch · refresh

Find citation for every {{fact}} template. Remove all exterraneous details from sections which are supposed to be written in summary style. Implement bcatt's suggestions on NPOVing the article, inasmuch as the suggestions were reasonable, made in good faith, and for the purpose of strengthening the article. Include more inline citations (notes), where applicable, and/or where the fact could use a citation. Verify everything. Continue to improve brilliance of prose, and make more concise. 'Early life' section: '1827 to 1831' section: Add picture(s) (purely cosmetic suggestion). '1831 to 1844' section: Massive work! Generally get the article to synch up better with the extremely well-written History of the Latter Day Saint movement sections on this period. Remove or at least deflate the two paragraphs (and then one under the notes) regarding the noncentral tarring and feathering; can't we include something more encyclopedic and central to his life? Dissenting Opinion: This is a beautiful illustration of his character and determination; much like anecdotal stories about Julius Caesar and Alexander the Great, the tarring and feathering is illustrative of Smith's character under duress. Add reference to polygamy under Nauvoo section. Explain: What does temple-building have to do with Smith's life? 'Marriage and family' section: Section on polygamy Section on birth family 'Major teachings' section: 'Legacy' section: 'Notes' section: 'References' section: Prune obsolete material, move it to Works relating to Joseph Smith, Jr.. 'See also' section: Expand. 'External links' section: Expand external links. (Include at least some anti-Smith links.) Prune and alphabetize categories. Alphabetize interwiki.

An event in this article is a January 12 selected anniversary

Contents 1 Archives 2 Translation of the Book of Abraham 3 Polygamy Section 4 Article tag

[edit] Archives

This is an index of archived portions of the discussion at this page. Archives help keep pages fast, accessible, and more usable. Scroll down to see current discussion for this article.

• Talk:Joseph Smith, Jr./Archive 1 - includes sections "Unresolved questions", "Joseph Smith image", "Disputed edits", "Neutrality", and "Vandalism"
• Talk:Joseph Smith, Jr./Archive 2 - includes sections "Moroni's Visit", "Succession Crisis", "Succession Crisis", "Plural Marriage", "Importance of First Vision", "Using the words some and claimed", "Images", "Title", "POV edits", and "Propose we make a Mormonism WikiProject".
• Talk:Joseph Smith, Jr./Archive 3 - includes section "President Box".
• Talk:Joseph Smith, Jr./Archive 4 - includes sections "Quinn" and "Plural Marriage removal".
• Talk:Joseph Smith, Jr./Archive 5 - includes sections about Danites, JS as feature article.
• Talk:Joseph Smith, Jr./Archive 6 - includes sections about "Smith's Death", "Featured Article", "Comments from 66.87.28.66", "Plural Marriage/DNA testing", "Brigham Young transfiguration legend.", "Interesting question", "Introductory paragraphs", "References and footnotes", "Family and Marriage(s)", "King Follett Discourse needs detail", "Infobox problems", "New Bushman biography", "Proposed new public domain image of Moroni and Joseph", "Newsweek Cover Story", "More info on the jailing / lynching", "About featured status", "New split-off article covering Smith's early history", "Company seeking their share", "Nominating Early life of Joseph Smith, Jr. for peer review", and "Nominating Early life of Joseph Smith, Jr as a Featured Article Candidate". This is every section (since the last archive) that was created before December 2005.
• Talk:Joseph Smith, Jr./Archive 7 - includes sections: Urim & Thummim, Dradamh, City Beautiful controversy, Spinoff articles, ...,Biased article, NPOV disputes, Plural wives section, Nancy Johnson, additional NPOV concerns.
• Talk:Joseph Smith, Jr./Archive 8 - includes sections: FreedominThought's NPOV concerns, Reverting edits by anonymous editors, Life In Missour section, Changes, good luck, Witnesses, Life in Missouri subsection, Jesus Christ to Jesus, Gathering of Israel subsection, Quotes that Mormons were considered abolitionsists, Inclusions by 67.9.135.139 and 65.70.157.104, Intro edits, NPOV dispute (Ongoing NPOV concerns), Sock puppetry accusations, Issue with Mormonlicious edits, NPOV: Mission Impossible?, More intro edits, In before bcatt reverts me, That's right, it needs reverting, No other Religious Leader is treated with such a negative POV
• Talk:Joseph Smith, Jr./Archive 9 - includes sections: "An interesting quote, Archives, Is The South Park Episode Accurate?, NPOV Tag revisited, The dispute history, Improved, Quotation Marks, Recent edits, Joseph Smith, Smith's wives and children, Eldest son dying, Edited introductory paragraph, Edits on Smith's Death, Editing section "1827 to 1831"

• Talk:Joseph Smith, Jr./Archive 10 - includes sections: Polygamy: Cultural or religious heresy?, Was it Moroni or Nephi that gave the plates?, Rigdon needs earlier reference in article, Comments of User:Hoboken, Re: Archive 9 - Is South Park quote Accurate?, Masonry, Joseph Smith diaries, Removed paragraph, Polygyny, Fawn Brodie & Bushman, Bullet-list in introductory paragraph?, His family supported Strang, Succession boxes, Citations, Crystal gazing sentence removal, References, Recent edit on D&C 111:4"
• Talk:Joseph Smith, Jr./Archive 11 - includes sections:Haun's Mill, Death, Masonry, First Vision, Splitting the article, witnesses, Media section, SouthPark, Reasonss for POV tag, Mob persecution, 1826 trial, Church of Christ, Myth of Joseph Smith killing two men at Carthage, Polygamy, Early life, Quotes, Last words, Racism, Criminal record, Reformed Egyptian, Image, Mason, Abraham, Persecution, Missionary category

[edit] Translation of the Book of Abraham

I hate to beat a dead horse here, but why is the "Translation of the Book of Abraham" section still in the article? We discussed this above, but it was never resolved. All the issues brought up in this section are already discussed in the Book of Abraham article. Can't we just remove it? We shouldn't have to discuss one issue in two places. If it's decided we really need the section, one paragraph should summarize the dispute with a link to the main article for the details. I'd do it myself, but I'm afraid my edit would just be reverted, so I'd like to discuss it first. — Frecklefσσt | Talk 15:46, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

The section is major teachings of Joseph Smith, but the translation subsection is completely out of balance in the section. Someone went a little overboard. I will delete it entirely unless someone can demonstrate why this single issue is so significant that it should be the total focus of Joseph Smith's teachings. --Storm Rider ^(talk) 20:02, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Hi Storm Rider, I also feel this is appropriate. A fairer treatment on Jospeh Smith's translative work would of necessity require a more thorough discussion on how the Book of Mormon came to be. For starters, it is a far more noteworthy topic - a 532 page book that skips forward and back in time, include chiasmus, includes multigenerational references to characters and their interactions across multiple tenses, includes names noone had ever heard of, and then those names were discovered on clay tablets in the 20th century, I could go on... but you get the picture, all of this was written from scratch in 60 days. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jeremydmarshall (talk • contribs) 06:12, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Sounds interesting. Do you have a source that talks about these clay tablets that are considered to validate the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon? —Remember the dot ^(talk) 06:26, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

I always hesitate to suggest a new article -- but Translations of Joseph Smith, Jr. is always a possibility. Jeremydmarshall might be interested in contributing a translation methodology subsection to Origin of the Book of Mormon. WBardwin (talk) 06:28, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Hi, I am glad to get such a quick response! Thanks guys. I am more than happy to gather my sources and contribute in a meaningful way if the opportunity exists for such. I was compelled to comment when I read the Book of Abraham article section specifically, especially when all the quotes that declare Smith an "impudent fraud" are taken from a raging anti-mormon source. This is hardly neutral.

In regards to the names on clay tablets: http://farms.byu.edu/jbms/pdf/9_1_2000_05.pdf.

Daniel C Peterson, a BYU professor lectures on specific Book of Mormon evidences and has produced volumes on the subject. I will do some more reading before I begin to produce content. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.242.98.188 (talk) 11:49, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

"... are taken from a raging anti-mormon source." A point to ponder: Are articles from 'raging PRO-mormon sources' (F.A.R.M.S. [1]) supposedly more credible than those from anti-mormon sources ? F.A.R.M.S. also can hardly be considered neutral. Duke53 | ^Talk 12:10, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Hi Duke53, FARMS is pro-mormon, CARM is specifically anti-mormon. The Book of Abraham references are anti-mormon. If you hold neutrality up as a guiding virtue why do the anti-mormons get to dictate the dialogue of almost the entire article? So much is that the case that the contents of this article are largely unrecognisable to those who are devout in the Latter-Day Saint faith. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.242.98.188 (talk) 11:26, 1 May 2008 (UTC) 60.242.98.188 (talk) 11:29, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Polygamy Section

I have added a line noting Smith's February 1844 denunciation of polygamy in the Times & Seasons - it was immediately reverted. The user stated that my edit was 'controversial' and possibly 'misinformation'. After placing it back in, instead of merely listing the T&S reference, I provided a link to the reliable T&S online transcript. Hopefully this will suffice. Best, A Sniper (talk) 10:40, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Article tag

Does this article need a tag over the entire thing? The article incorporates tons of citations; if citations are needed, this should be indicated in the appropriate spots within the body of the article. --Eustress (talk) 15:05, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I would agree with Eustress that the tag is unnecessary. There has been a lot of work that has gone into adding citations and keeping the NPOV. Of course, if specific citations are lacking, that should be flagged at the place of concern...but that is what is being done presently anyway. Best, A Sniper (talk) 15:17, 3 June 2008 (UTC)