Talk:Joseph Haydn

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More information about this article... The following comments have been left for this page: i think this article about joseph haydn is well written and very informative. i am doing a music through history project at school and my composer was joseph haydn. so i searched joseph haydn on wikipedia and it came up with this excellent article. i passed with straight a's all thank to wikipedia! 86.129.229.160 18:29, 18 March 2007 (UTC) Nice article. I would recommend submitting this for GA-class or FA-class after some more work. The lead needs expanding, the friendship sections are too short to be meaningful at the moment, and the section on his music needs more organisation into sections, and should probably end up being its own article with a summary left behind. Carcharoth 16:54, 7 June 2007 (UTC) (edit)

Joseph Haydn is related to WikiProject Composers which has been provided as a place for editors of biographical articles of Music Composers and Songwriters to discuss common issues, discover neglected composer articles and exchange ideas. All who are interested are invited to comment and contribute.

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Additional information: B This article has been rated as B-Class on the assessment scale. ??? This article has not yet received an importance rating on the assessment scale. The following comments have been left for this page: i think this article about joseph haydn is well written and very informative. i am doing a music through history project at school and my composer was joseph haydn. so i searched joseph haydn on wikipedia and it came up with this excellent article. i passed with straight a's all thank to wikipedia! 86.129.229.160 18:29, 18 March 2007 (UTC) Nice article. I would recommend submitting this for GA-class or FA-class after some more work. The lead needs expanding, the friendship sections are too short to be meaningful at the moment, and the section on his music needs more organisation into sections, and should probably end up being its own article with a summary left behind. Carcharoth 16:54, 7 June 2007 (UTC) (edit)

• Archive 1 (ca. 2003-April 2008)

[edit] Music out of tune?

Is it me, or are the cellos in the two Cello Concertos in D in the Media section hideously out of tune? I doubt Wikipedia will have much luck getting the layman interested in classical music if all the samples sound so hideously off-key. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.3.52 (talk) 18:46, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Joseph Haydn Gold Coin

The first three paragraphs below are copied from User talk:Opus33 but would be more useful (as clarification) on this Talk page. Opus33 (talk) 06:05, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Hi there. The Austrian government mints every year only one coin of 50 euro value, in very small quantities, immediately getting acquired by collectors. They started a series in 2004 called "Great Composers", in their honour, and it was decided to put Haydn on the very first coin … on top of Mozart and Beethoven! How can you say this is not interest for those that want to learn about Haydn? The fact that you have no interest in numismatics, or that your interest is in music, should not be enough to decide what should and what should not be included in an article; that is my personal opinion. Please remember that Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia … I think that a reference to a very special coin featuring a portrait of Haydn, not only does not take too much space in the article, but it is also very valid; please reconsider it. Miguel.mateo (talk) 05:47, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Hello Miguel, I think it would be fine to discuss this commemorative coin but such discussion would belong in the numismatics articles of WP and not the Haydn article. As support for my position, I would note that neither the New Grove (the major English-language encyclopedia of music) nor any of the composer biographies I've read make any mention of commemorative coins. I think the pros are right on this point and we should follow their example. Yours sincerely, Opus33 (talk) 17:13, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

I have to disagree, this is not a music encyclopaedia, and not allowing this simple fact in the article, that takes no more than three lines, is neglecting the fact that the coin exists; which the only thing that shows is the relevance of Haydn in contemporary society, not only in music; it simply shows the legacy he has left from a different angle. Of course the coin is in an article of numismatics, which by the link, links back to this article as well. I will change it a little bit, and will put it in the "See also" section, please be wide, and see it as a valuable piece of information. Maybe some of you, musicians, would love to have this coin (and the other two "Great Composers" coin, featuring Mozart and Beethoven) after knowing the fact that it exists, it is a very rare piece of art, of pure gold, very valuable. Did you know the coin exists? Miguel.mateo (talk) 00:06, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Hello Miguel, I'm not persuaded by your remarks. That you personally have an extreme enthusiasm for gold coins is not a good basis for editorial policy. As editors we serve a public of readers, the great majority of whom do not have such an enthusiasm. This is why I deleted your contribution again. Sincerely, Opus33 (talk) 06:05, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I really do not understand how come a simple reference in the see also part of the article, for some piece of information very valid and valuable, simply because you do not like it, you continue to remove it. This is an encyclopedia, not a personal book; the only thing you are doing is not allowing Wikipedia to grow, since my reference is to an internal article in Wikipedia. I will put those changes, once again, later today, with an even smaller text. This time it will be escalated to administrators if you remove it. Miguel.mateo (talk) 06:29, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I see no reason not to give a short mention to the fact that he has his own commemorative coin -- we usually have a section on historical people's impact in today's world, so why not include this. —Nightstallion 08:56, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I tend to agree with Opus33's conclusion, but my reasoning is slightly different. I doubt that the text about the coin belongs on the article. Firstly it is information about the subject matter of a coin, and it's a stretch to argue that it adds any information about Haydn. Secondly, unless we have a source, it is original research to claim that it shows anything about Haydn's legacy: do the Austrian Mint claim that it shows any such thing? - and even if they did, would it qualify as a reliable source? Thirdly, the Austrian Mint chooses subjects for its collectors' material that will sell coins. The coins are issued to make money for the Mint, and not for general circulation: we wouldn't put information on this article about other commercial material - say a Haydn necktie, a T-shirt, a cookie or a Haydn card in a pack of Composers Top Trumps, no matter how apparently authoritative the issuing body.

The encyclopedia succeeds if it demonstrates through its Haydn article, to those who might want to find out more about the coin's subject matter, why he is so notable that the Mint chose him as suitable subject matter for a coin. It is a cop-out, and puts the cart before the horse, to document that the coin demonstrates the bare fact that Haydn is notable.

By the way, I am even more certain that the use of the image of the coin on the Joseph Haydn article would not qualify as fair use. --RobertG ♬ talk 09:15, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Hayden is a famous person, whose life is commemorated in many ways. As is Neil Armstrong. That Hayden has been chosen as the subject for a commemorative coin is very much a part of the topic of Hayden. This is not a biography of Musicians- it is an encyclopedia. Is there another article which is related to Hayden, within which contains information about how his life is commemorated in today's world? If that is the case, mention of a commemorative coin should go there. Since no article exists that meet this criteria, the short mention that he is honored with a commemorative coin should be included in this article. See Neil Armstrong for precedent; Armstrong is commemorated on a stamp in that article.

RobertG: Firstly, the information about the coin's subject under scrutiny is Hayden, the very title of this article. How is it a stretch to argue that the short mention will add information about Hayden? Secondly, if the Austrian mint- the actual producer of the content in question- is not a reliable source, what would qualify in this matter? Thirdly, The coin in question is legal tender in Austria and can be spent with the value of 50 euro; refer to the precedent regarding Neil Armstrong about what worth it is to mention a commemorative coin/stamp honoring historical persons. All images of euro coins can qualify as fair-use and if not, there is a license which allows the coin to be used in Wikipedia- I helped to author it. I'm not sure how mentioning this coin is putting the cart before the horse.

Wikipedia often refers to this sort of thing in other articles, not just Neil Armstrong's. What is the roadblock about? Cheers. The € • ^T/_C 09:52, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

RobertG: your comments are partially valid, but nobody had offered to change the texts, instead my contributions are constantly reverted just because (and quoting) "neither the New Grove (the major English-language encyclopedia of music) nor any of the composer biographies I've read make any mention of commemorative coins" and " ... as editors we serve a public of readers, the great majority of whom do not have such an enthusiasm (for coins)". Well, this is not the New Grove, this is not an encyclopedia of biographies, and the fact that the coin existed, minted by one of the most prestigious mints in Europe, honoring this great composer in the very first issue of a high value trilogy, is very notable and relevant to the article. Please read WP:REL and WP:NOTE.

I am simply asking for a short mention to the coin in the "See also" section, I do not believe this does not fit the article. I am planning to do the same thing for Mozart and Beethoven, since they were the other two great composers selected to finish the trilogy. But I wanted to finish this discussion first, not to have the same trouble in the other articles as well.

Please check the article Vienna Philharmonic, see "Popularity", and you will see a reference to one of the most famous bullions coins, in honor to that great orchestra. What difference does it make here? Check also Ferdinand I, Holy Roman Emperor (father of the Austrian line of the Habsburg dynasty), Prince Eugene of Savoy (one of the most prominent generals serving the previous dynasty), Georg Rafael Donner (one of the most prolific Austrian sculptors of the 18th century), Gustav Klimt (an Austrian Symbolist painter and one of the most prominent members of the Vienna Art Nouveau movement), Robert Schuman, Paul-Henri Spaak and Konrad Adenauer (three pioneers of European unification) ... just to cite some samples. The fact that all of these great men have commemorative coins, of unique high value and very low mintage, means something.

Once again, I will add the reference to the coin later, will shorten the text to make it more compact, right under exactly the same "See Also" section. This time, if reverted, I will escalate to a neutral administrator, since Opus33 is showing nothing but lack of appreciation of what this coins means, for Haydn and for the people that want to learn about him. Miguel.mateo (talk) 10:51, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I have presented my reasoning. Sorry you didn't engage with it, Theeuro. I did not intend to build "a roadblock".

About fair use, which is the only aspect that seems to me vaguely important: the image is a picture of a copyrighted design. Perhaps I am wrong, and the image's use on the Haydn article could be viewed as being [from the text of the license] "for the purposes of commentary or criticism relating to the image of the currency". But if you are commenting on or criticising the coin's image, you aren't writing about Haydn. --RobertG ♬ talk 11:24, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I think that the text/link Joseph Haydn Gold Coin should be added under the 'see also' section 'Other topics' header as this is where the information fits in the article,

My opinion that it should not contain a paragraph of its own as opposed to the Neil Armstrong article is that the stamp depicts the event of landing on the moon which was an important part of Neil's life wer'as the coin only depicts Joseph Haydn in question.Kevin hipwell (talk) 11:49, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

In case people have not seen it, this is what I added to the article, exactly under the 'See Also', 'Other Topics' section: "Joseph Haydn has left such a legacy behind that he was recently selected to be the main motive for the famous 50 euro Joseph Haydn Gold Coin issued in March 20, 2004. The reverse side of the coin shows his portrait together with his signature and the years of his life (1732- 1809)." ... as can be seen, it is a very short message.

Also, as shown in the description of the image, under the license section, there is no copyright infringement, since the coin is being described in the last sentence of the previous paragraph. Miguel.mateo (talk) 13:53, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Having had a chance to sleep on this, I now think it doesn't hurt the article to include the image. The article had a long stretch (discussion of style and history) that had no images and looked rather plain. It seems harmless to include the coin there, and so I did. I'm still opposed to including an actual paragraph discussing the coin, for the reason I gave earlier; readers who want to know about the coin can click on the link. Cheers, Opus33 (talk) 15:04, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Opus33 I think you integrated the information in a very presentable way Good Job!Kevin hipwell (talk) 19:01, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I also think this is a good compromise. The image adds to the article. Cheers, Antandrus (talk) 19:12, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Opus33, I am very pleased with the final result. To have consistency (and to avoid similar conflicts) I promise to do exactly the same for Mozart and Beethoven very soon. Thanks again! Miguel.mateo (talk) 22:58, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Amazing what some sleep can do! Good job on the compromise- it really does look very nice. Cheers. The € • ^T/_C 02:40, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Speaking from a purely aesthetic point of view, I find this image ugly, rather garish and visually jarring: more Liberace than Haydn. Can we somehow tone it down? Eusebeus (talk) 19:33, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Eusebeus, I think you have good taste. But what do you mean by "toning it down"? Cheers, Opus33 (talk) 02:44, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Opus! I think removing it altogether would be best since it is so hideous, but since there seems to be a determined view to keeping it (above), perhaps we can greyscale it? Eusebeus (talk) 04:30, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Hello, Eusebeus, I notice you've also gotten involved elsewhere on WP in dealing with Miguel.Mateo's troublesome edits. Thank you for this. Re. greyscaling, it might make the coin less obtrusive, but on the other hand it isn't 100% scholarly, since the image does come straight from the Austrian mint, so in a sense the original color is a fact we're obliged to report. For the long term, I think the right approach to finding images for this section of the article would be to provide illustrative examples in music notation, which I think I can do, sooner or later. Yours truly, Opus33 (talk) 21:13, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, I agree with that. Given the consensus at the admins noticeboard that these coin images are largely inappropriate for Wikipedia, I suggest we remove it from this and the other articles. Eusebeus (talk) 21:24, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Haydn's country of birth

Minor clarification here. In 1732, what is now Rohrau in Niederösterreich was part of a state called the Archduchy of Austria in the Holy Roman Empire. The country of Austria as we know it didn't come into existence until the 20th Century. Hence my edit to the "Childhood" subsection. --TrustTruth (talk) 03:07, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Biographical infobox

A new (albeit minimal) biographical infobox now appears on this article. I disagree with having it here - and especially without a notification here on the talk page first. This may look innocuous but it will cause a lot of problems and disrupt editing. --Kleinzach (talk) 00:47, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, Kleinzach, I did just put a message on your talk page about this, but I didn't notice this posting.

Could you go into more detail about what problems might be caused by such minimal infoboxes? Thanks, Opus33 (talk) 01:07, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

I've given my opinion. If you want more information on why this approach was rejected by the Composers Project, please see the archives. It's all there - in considerable detail. A large number of editors participated. (I note your box is now being changed and is getting larger.) --Kleinzach (talk) 02:47, 10 May 2008 (UTC)