Talk:Joseph Goebbels

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[edit] Archived Talk

I have archived the previous talk page and it can be found in the Archive section above or at Talk:Joseph Goebbels/Archive2. There are one oustanding issue which has been carried over all other issues that can be resolved have been. The article has changed radically and is well on the way to FA Status. Gavin Scott 17:24, 30 March 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Religion

Although Herr Goebbels did have a Roman Catholic upbringing, I don't believe it is necessarily accurate to list his religion as Catholic, as he and many other born-Christian Nazis either renounced Christianity for its Jewish roots or embraced "Aryan" mysticism outright. Is it possible to qualify his religion. Perhaps it doesn't matter, but given the racialistic nonsense Goebbels espoused, his membership in the Church was probably not a high priority for him.

Racialistic nonsense and religion aren't mutually exclusive. But in Goebbels' case I agree, that religion was probably not a mayor factor.--91.37.245.30 (talk) 01:53, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Having actually read an English translation of "Michael" I have no choice but to differ. In it Goebbels makes it clear he thought the Bible was the greatest thing since sliced bread (pp. 107, 120), that mysticism or religion is wonderful and good (pp. 18, 23, 24, 45, 46, 60, 75-78, 100, 107, 120), that Jesus was the greatest guy that ever lived and that modern Germans were "something like Christ Socialists" (38-40, 44, 45, 46, 47, 56, 65, 66, 70, 74, 91, 120, 127) and that God was so absolutely wonderful that the modern man "is intrinsically a seeker of God, perhaps a Christ-man." (See pp. 12, 13, 18, 23, 32, 35, 39, 40, 45, 48-9, 59, 65, 93, 102). If I were to edit the document I am sure a way would be found to censor the changes. But if enough editors will examine the Amok Press paperback and see this is exactly true, a way may be found to let the less bookish public at least have the facts. translator (talk) 18:55, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

There is no topic heading for Influences, but the usual allusions to Friedrich Nietzche are there. However, no mention is made of Goethe. In "Michael" Goebbels makes neutral mention of Nietzche twice, while Goethe is praised to the heavens no less than eleven times. Which of these writers should be mentioned as the larger influence? Hint: Friedrich is disliked by Christian dogmatists, while Goethe is held in high esteem by the pious. This sort of prejudice seems a poor way to decide which facts to suppress. I would edit the article were I not willing to lay heavy odds the edit would be censored on some pretext or other. translator (talk) 19:08, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, I wouldn't base my claim to understanding Goebbels's view on religion on Michael. That was written in his 20's, and had lots of things that he didn't hold to in later life. If one reads his post 1933 diaries, for example, there is little to suggest any interest at all in being a Christian. Bytwerk (talk) 19:26, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Either FA or Peer Review

I think that it would be worth either getting this article peer reviewed or pushing it straight into FA candidates list. The main objection would be that it is long, but I think that the subject matter more than justifies the length. Any one else have any thoughts? --J.StuartClarke (talk) 12:44, 4 April 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Page Discussion

[edit] Catastrophic

This article is miserable, as is Fest's book. We need a complete review of it; it is true that Irving has been trialed, but this does under no circumstances mean that all of his work has been discredited. Irving's Goebbels biography is among the finest and most elaborate we have, I see no reason why it cannot be used.

Simply because Irving does not display outright hatred there is no reason why his work should not be aknowledged. Declarations of love and hatred does NOT belong in an encyclopedia, articles should be neutral and factual, not the result of some historian's personal speculation. As an example, Goebbels never abandoned Christianity, which several diary entries and phrases from speeches prove; therefore it is unserious to write so in a wikipedia article. The fact that he expressed doubts regarding faith and church can of course be mentioned, but should be done so in a reference. Likewise, the 'Big Lie' quote never existed, all mention of it should thus be avoided.

I request that this article is taken off the 'good articles'-list, and rewritten with an emphasis on Goebbels' official and rhetorical work. His powers were far-reaching, and his influence on the government (Hitler especially) makes a correct understanding of his thoughts and ideas crucial to any general understanding of the Third Reich and the events that shaped it.

And please replace the animated picture with a portrait, and add proper references to speeches in German also. Some photos could be added in the end as well.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.163.193.66 (talk • contribs)

I have, for the moment, reverted this article to the previous version. While there is certainly room for improvement, the revision by User:80.163.193.66 removes significant and sourced data, and adds a lot of unsourced material.--Anthony.bradbury 11:07, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Inconsistency

in the beginning of the page (the introduction) it says he allowed his wife to kill his children, but in the "defeat and death" section it talks about how he had an SS doctor do it. comments? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Zohyil (talk • contribs) 03:13, 7 May 2007 (UTC).

Most sources suggest that the children were firstly sedated with a medication provided by an SS doctor, and then poisoned by Magda Goebbels. The only surviving witnesses from inside the Fuehrerbunker were the secretary, cook, chauffeur and an orderly, and their testimonies do not agree in detail. The chauffeur and the SS orderly were both, self-admittedly, involved in the cremation of bodies in the garden of the Reichkanzlei. It seems likely that, at that time and place, only the SS would have had the facilities to obtain poison, but I would not make any attempt now to defend either belief.--Anthony.bradbury 16:59, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Animated Picture

Does anyone else find that picture a bit cartoonish. Could it perhaps play through once and then stop rather than constantly animating? I could edit it to do that.

I agree! The constant looping is also very distracting while reading the text. After all, the text is the most important here.Mookiefurr 16:12, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
I also agree, infact I may have to remove it! Gavin Scott 20:15, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
I would like one cycle and then a freeze.--Anthony.bradbury 20:20, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
I (Wikipedia consumer rather than editor) agree wholeheartedly... It's incredibly distracting and a friend of mine started giggling when he saw it - definitely too cartoonish.
Just my two cents; why does the picture need to be animated at all? what does the animation do that a plain single image doesn't? --MulletManDan 19:21, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
I say replace it all together. Abbott75 09:44, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

It's not even a very good quality. I don't see how seeing Joseph Goebbles flap his arms around twice adds anything more to the article than what a normal static picture does --Hayden5650 08:35, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I have replaced it, the animation was hideous! Gavin Scott 17:00, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Isn't there a copyright problem with that picture?--Boson 18:06, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, it's been on a wiki article Sportpalast Speech for a long time. So I assume when the purging went on this one survived beacuse it was legal.Gavin Scott 18:21, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Big Lie

Main article: Big Lie

While associated, in the popular mind and amongst contemporaries, with the Big Lie concept of propaganda do other people think it is right to mention it in the first paragraph in Goebbel's entry? After all it was Hitler who formulised the concept and indeed it appears that in much of his propaganda work Goebbels was actually more committed to a softer approach, as demonstrated within the article:

'He was, in fact, far from the most militant member of the Nazi leadership on cultural questions. The more philistine Nazis wanted nothing in German books but Nazi slogans, nothing on German stages and cinema screens but Nazi heroics, and nothing in German concert halls but German folk songs....

Goebbels also resisted the complete Nazification of the arts because he knew that the masses must be allowed some respite from slogans and propaganda. He ensured that film studios such as UFA at Babelsberg near Berlin continued to produce a stream of comedies and light romances, which drew mass audiences to the cinema where they would also watch propaganda newsreels and Nazi epics.'

From the Big Lie article:

'Later, Joseph Goebbels put forth a slightly different theory which has come to be more commonly associated with the phrase big lie. In this theory, the English are attributed with using a propaganda technique wherein they had the mendacity to "lie big" and "stick to it"'

While Goebbels frequently made grandiose claims about the power of propaganda I would say the actual output of the RMVP seems to show that he was far more cautious about its usage. Jezze 02:57, 28 March 2007 (UTC)


Also from "Big Lie" article - it is unclear if hitler was advocating the big lie or accusing Jews, etc of using it - the later I assume. A contribtor to the Big Lie article was also unable to verify the quote Goebbels is supposed to have made about the big lie - it appears his quote may be a big lie/fable. If the Big Lie comment in the opening of this article remains it should have a citation of his quote ( or a citation of who attributed it to him - it appears a liar, a big one). Scary how trivia can lead to more and more and more....159.105.80.141 15:53, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Timeline - Plenipotentiary for Total War

"....Goebbels to align himself with the Secretary to the Führer at the end of 1945, thus accepting his subordinate position. When elements of the Army leadership tried to assassinate Hitler in the July 20 plot shortly thereafter, it was this trio that rallied the resistance to the plotters."

This timeline doesn't make sense as the July 20 plot occurred in 1944 and of course the war was well over by the end of 1945. I'm having a little trouble sense of the whole paragraph this comes from. Chronoligically, if the July 20 plot followed Goebbels aligning himself with Borman (?) wouldn't he have been aligning himself at the end of 1943? And the paragraph begins by talking about these political manouverings as if they began in 1944. Am confused! Leonurus 17:36, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Does it mention in this article that it was Goebbels who coined the phrase "iron curtain" I don't think the article states this fact.

Dbottino 23:01, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

I would have said that it was Winston L S Churchill, during his final administration 1951-55. The comment related to the impenetrability of Soviet Russia, ans was contained in a speech made by him in the House of Commons. I could be wrong. Do you have references?--Anthony.bradbury 23:11, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
Correction - the speech was made by Churchill at Westminster College, Fulton, Missouri, on March 5th 1946. References relating to Goebbels are still welcome.--Anthony.bradbury 23:16, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
Goebbels did use the phrase before Churchil in a 1945 article in "Das Reich": "If the German people lay down their weapons, the Soviets, according to the agreement between Roosevelt, Churchill and Stalin, would occupy all of East and Southeast Europe along with the greater part of the Reich. An iron curtain would fall over this enormous territory controlled by the Soviet Union, behind which nations would be slaughtered." The full article is available here: http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/goeb49.htm Bytwerk 03:30, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
Apparently, it was neither. There is more at Iron Curtain and de:Eiserner Vorhang (Politik). It was new to me!--Boson 10:11, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely fair comment. New to me too, but I am happy to accept instruction and correction. I wonder which source Churchill pinched it from?--Anthony.bradbury 10:45, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gerbbels

There should be a pronunciation key since his name is pronounced like the aforementioned way, and not the phonetic way.
Blindman shady 05:40, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

This is, I am afraid, the German way.--Anthony.bradbury 16:51, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
I always said it. Go-Bills or Go-Balls Gavin Scott 21:49, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
I know it is German, but there is no pronunciation key and there should be.
Blindman shady 18:35, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Blindman makes a very good point. IPA may look fancy and is technically very correct, but very few can actually interpret it correctly. Hardly an ideal situation.
Peter Isotalo 04:42, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Section "Gauleiter of Berlin" And The Death Of Horst Wessel

The section gives an statement that Wessel was killed in a brawl and cites as a source Fest's The Face Of The Third Reich. On the other hand, the WP entry for Wessel gives the following account: On the evening of 14 January 1930 Wessel answered a knock on his door, and was shot in the face by an assailant who then fled the scene. He was gravely wounded and lingered in hospital until he died on 23 February. His assassin was Albrecht Höhler, an active member of the local Communist Party (KPD) branch (Höhler was sentenced to six years imprisonment for the assault, but was killed by the Gestapo after the Nazi accession to power in 1933). The KPD denied any knowledge of the attack and said it resulted from a dispute over money between Wessel and his landlady. The matter was never resolved. It is possible that Frau Salm asked her late husband's old comrades to help deal with her recalcitrant tenant. It is also possible that the shooting was revenge by local Communists for Wessel's alleged role in the murder by local Nazis of a 17-year-old Communist, Camillo Ross, earlier in the day. No specific source is given, however. Someone more conversant with the subject might want to look into this discrepancy. Hi There 04:03, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

The Encyclopedia Britannica supports your version. Changes will be made Gavin Scott 17:18, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Newly Added link — Remove?

I'm inclined to remove the link just added to Goebbels's speeches in German for two reasons. First, Wikipedia generally discourages foreign language links. The number of users for whom the link is useful will be small. Second, the site looks to be a neo-Nazi site. Any opinions? Bytwerk 15:40, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree Gavin Scott 15:44, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. First, Goebbels was famous for his speeches. This invaluable collection of mp3 speeches is not only of interest to German speakers but also to anyone who is interested in this man. Second, there are also speeches from Lenin and Stalin in this archive, maybe a 'communist site'?? Guys, this is a historical archive and as such unbiased. (82.133.126.135 13:26, 9 September 2007 (UTC))

Bytwerk, since you are quoting Wiki rules: "Links to English language content are strongly preferred in the English-language Wikipedia. It may be appropriate to have a link to a non-English-language site, such as when an official site is unavailable in English; or when the link is to the subject's text in its original language; or when the site contains visual aids such as maps, diagrams, or tables." Let me know if you are unable to understand these guidelines, I may be able to give you a few lessons in my spare time. (82.133.126.135 16:16, 18 September 2007 (UTC))

I think we can do better than linking to such a questionable site. I reverted your change. --TeaDrinker 16:32, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, it's been a few days now and I still cannot see anything "better than that", ie. a more comprehensive archive, with ad-free, uncommented and easy to download mp3-speeches. If such a site sounds rather "dubious" or "questionable" to you then I believe you are in the wrong community. Last time I checked this site called itself "the free encyclopedia" and as far as I can tell this philosophy has been honoured by most members so far. Come back when you actually have found a site "better than that". (82.133.126.135 11:16, 23 September 2007 (UTC))

Review the section on external links: WP:EL. 1. The site is not "accessible" to most English users. If you really want to try to add it to an article, try the German version of the page. If you can't post in German, try an English note on the discussion page of that article and see if anyone is willing to add the link. Second, review the guidelines on reliable sources: WP:RS: "Organizations and individuals that are widely acknowledged as extremist, whether of a political, religious or anti-religious, racist, or other nature, should be used only as sources about themselves and their activities in articles about themselves, and even then with caution." Although I appreciate your kind offer above to give me a few lessons in your spare time, you might spend a little more time on Wikipedia and figure out the guidelines before becoming too confident of your knowledge.
I did remove the link, along with some vandalism by another user. The link itself is not vandalism, which I did not note in the edit summary. Sorry about that. Bytwerk 12:22, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Truth is the Greatest Enemy of the State

"If you tell a lie big enough...." I cannot find a citation for this famous quotation. Is it in his diaries? Could it be apocryphal? Does anyone know the first use of this quotation in print?

There should be a footnote as to origin, but I am unable to supply one. If no one can, perhaps it should be marked as "attributed to." Lonnie 17:06, 15 September 2007 (UTC) (Lonnie Nesseler)

That quotation is a fabrication, and is unlikely to have been something Goebbels actually said. Although he was entirely willing to lie, his public statements always asserted that propaganda needed to be truthful. The quotation is all over the Internet, often attributed to "Joseph M. Goebbels." I've removed it. Bytwerk 19:24, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Truth be told it sounds like AH in Mein Kampf. I think Goering also repeated it. Gwen Gale 17:23, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
It's also not Hitler, though he said something closer. See the article on the Big Lie. Bytwerk 19:39, 4 October 2007 (UTC)


Its most probable origin is a paraphrase from US wartime intelligence/propaganda. It closely matches what the US government said about him, but doesn't seem to match anything he ever said.159.105.80.141 (talk) 13:59, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Goebbels 0001.jpg

Image:Goebbels 0001.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 03:11, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Moved here from article

[edit] Popular culture

During his lifetime and postmortem Doctor Goebbels has been subject to parody and imitation in popular culture. Often he is shown in a negative light and during the War years he was shown as a "malicious dwarf" and evil mastermind. Post-war popular impressions of Goebbels are similar however understanding of his person was changed radically after the discovery of his diaries in the Moscow Archives.

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Goebbels 0001.jpg

Image:Goebbels 0001.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 03:44, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] His height?

What is the source for his height being 5'5"? That seems quite high, and in fact such a height was within normal range and was not considered particularly "short" for a man born in Central Europe at the turn of the century (anthropologist C.S. Coon in his 1939 work Races of Europe describes southwest German males as being on average 1.69m or 5'6.5"). Goebbels wouldn't have been so ridiculed if he were 5'5". His shortness becomes very evident in photos depicting him standing with Hitler, who is widely recorded as being 5'8"-5'9" (Hitler was above average height for a rural Austrian born at the turn of the century). Here is a photo of Goebbels and Hitler standing together, both have similar size heels on their footwear, yet the top of Goebbels' head is at Hitler's eye level:

http://germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org/sub_image.cfm?image_id=2085

This suggests a much greater height difference between them than a mere 3 inches. Based on that photo, I would estimate his real height to be more along the lines of 5'1"-5'2", which would have been considered below average, and for which the ridicule would "make more sense." (67.149.150.252 (talk) 21:35, 22 November 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Lack of source?

"Goebbels told Hitler that "spontaneous" anti-Jewish violence had already broken out in German cities, although in fact this was not true: this was a clear case of Goebbels manipulating Hitler for his own ends."

This assertion is not backed by any reference, and I move that one (or more) be provided, or the sentence deleted. Also, the placing of spontaneous within double quotes is mystifying. If it was not spontaneous, then that can be clarified (as it indeed is), and if it was spontaneous, then the quotes are redundant, and indeed erroneous.

86.133.22.240 (talk) 22:14, 17 February 2008 (UTC)SM

[edit] What?!

Why is his name "Goebbels" and not "Göbbels"? Even in the German article it's "Goebbels".. --nlitement [talk] 21:35, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Because that's the way he spelled it. All his books use Goebbels, and his signed his name Goebbels. Bytwerk (talk) 21:41, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
And does anybody know why he did that? It sounds extremely unusual. --nlitement [talk] 23:24, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps he wished to be unusual...or its just one of those things, like some people spell Stuart or Stewart...

[edit] a rude picture

I also think the image considered for Propaganda Minister section for Goebbels is a rude one because he is depicted like a mouse. I appreciate the opinions of other.--Bhzd (talk) 14:08, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure that being rude about someone, when it is properly referenced and adds to the article, is necessarily a reason for removing the image from the article. The image is useful for displaying the sentiment of those outside Germany at the time towards Goebbels, particually the USSR. Efimov is actually still alive today. Since it is likely that a reasonable proportion of his propaganda was only believed inside Germany it is also useful to see what others thought of it in reality. --J.StuartClarke (talk) 12:11, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Burial?

The remains of the Goebbels family were secretly buried, along with those of Hitler, near Rathenow in Brandenburg. In 1970, they were disinterred and cremated, and the ashes thrown in the Elbe. Where exactly was that burial site? If anyone knows, it ought to be mentioned in the article. Also, hasn't there been a lot of debate over the yeas as to what exactly happened to Hitler's body? --Ragemanchoo (talk) 09:31, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Man of power": Lake Constance?

This might be a misunderstanding as G. had a villa at the small Bogensee near Wandlitz, Brandenburg and - as far as I know - not at the Bodensee, German for Lake Constance. 85.178.134.56 (talk) 10:40, 17 May 2008 (UTC)