Talk:Joseph Conrad

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[edit] "Criticism"?

It will strike anyone who has read more than a smattering of Conrad's works - i.e. the usual material that appears on High School and college syllabuses, which seems to include Heart of Darkness and precious little else - as extremely odd that a section labelled 'Criticism' only includes a commentary on Achebe's opportunistic and facile criticism of Conrad's Heart of Darkness, which in itself was based upon a selective reading of HOD and failed, with a myopia almost becoming of one of Conrad's myriad colonial administrators, to consider the broadly satirical and ironic treatment received by Europeans in most of Conrad's novels and short-stories. He also wrote a story of his life.

Is this really the only 'criticism' of Conrad? Are libraries not filled with entire sections of secondary criticism and analysis? Was not Conrad a key figure in the modernist movement of English-language literature?

If, as it normally in these days of the post-1960s apologetic academic world, Achebe's sidenote on Conrad must be wheeled out in a page about such a great and influential author, the section should at least be labelled 'Achebe's Criticism of Conrad', not 'Criticism', as if that were the only thing anyone every said about Conrad, and as if racial commentary were the only feature available for analysis in Conrad's work.

Gunstar hero 17:38, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

It would seem ridiculous, but I invite you to delve into the actual critical literature on Joseph Conrad and see for yourself. Unfortunately, Achebe's racial commentary dominates the field to the point where papers have been written entirely about this state of affairs. siafu 19:15, 7 June 2006 (UTC)


I would not like to offend you by suggesting that what you say is wrong, but one could spend years studying Conrad without even needing to consult Achebe's criticism, based on notions of 'blankness' and the rhetorical device of the 'enigmatic' Africa which were touched upon by many critics prior to the 1970s. Achebe's notion is famous first because it was written by a prominent black author, and secondly because it was so incredibly scathing.
'Race' in its broadest sense is undoubtedly a major Conradian theme, appearing in Heart of Darkness, Lord Jim, The Nigger of the Narcissus, Almayer's Folly and many of Conrad's short stories in large quantities. Again, the debate on this began prior to Achebe and has developed in myriad ways after it. Gender studies in Conrad, for example, have been a topic of major attention in the 1990s. Talking about race in Conrad may not even involve touching on Heart of Darkness, although, admittedly, it has become the most famously 'racial' of Conrad's novels in light of Achebe, making allowance for Narcissus, whose title alone has gained it notoriety.
In illustration of my point consider a search I just performed on the Cambridge University library catalogue online. I am willing to guess that this is among the world's leading academic libraries. In a keyword search for 'Joseph Conrad', none of the first fifty entries were explicitly concerned with race (although I admit that some of the texts offering 'critical response' to Conrad would have dealt somewhere with race). Conrad's narrative style and technique are much more popular topics.
I think what you are saying, in conclusion, is true to an extent: the most 'public' criticism of Conrad is certainly Achebe, and Heart of Darkness is definietly Conrad's most popular novel, thanks in no small measure to the fact that Apocalypse Now was based on it (it's true! Ask younger people how they got around to reading it!). However this is by no means the height of critical debate on Conrad, and Wikipedia - to mount my soap box for a moment - should be providing a more collected and mature assessment than this.
217.44.24.118 22:49, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
The above entry ^^^ was mine, by the way. I forgot to log in the first time! Gunstar hero 22:50, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Gunstar hero and further suggest that pointing to the fact that "Achebe's racial commentary dominates the field" does not militate against a cry for diversity of subject matter. In my opinion, the academic community is drinking very deeply of the groupthink cup so it should be no surprise they gather around this sole issue. You can't really say: "Groupthink is OK because we all agree it's OK." In addition, the section purports to restate in large part Conrad's own views, which I doubt he ever expressed. These would have to be interpreted from the literature itself and so would be nonfactual and rather questionable. Also, Achebe's comment sounds like outright criticism, whereas there is a vast field of literary criticism out there. By the way, do we criticize Shakespeare for being "pro-monarchy" and therefore anti-democratic? The charge of "racism" is inherently a charge of intentional racism. Guernseykid 07:30, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Someone has taken a rather irresponsible tack on this debate and expanded the "criticism" to include a lot of innuendo and less than precise ideas. A lot of POV. Here it is in its entirety:


Chinua Achebe has argued that Conrad's language and imagery is inescapably racist, perhaps in part due to his first few novels, which show little insight into the natives he describes. Conrad associated 'the wild' with despair, death, savagery, and inhuman acts; nevertheless, in his depiction of London and industrial man he paints a similarly gloomy picture. He uses this symbolism in many of his novels, but most powerfully in Heart of Darkness. In Heart of Darkness Conrad is equates ancient northern Europeans with modern Africans — thereby suggesting that all humans must pass through a similar process of historic development. This thinking is inevitably ethnocentric. It makes specific development of Europe as though it were a universal process, that every culture will and ought to go through. However, one man is not the measure of all things. Therefore, the assessment other civilizations and cultures on the basis of European historical experience - by placing them on a scale of temporal distance vis a vie the European condition does not give any insight into these Others in their own right.

This thinking remains attractive because it imagines Europe as being more 'advanced' than the non-Western world, thereby providing for better, but usually for worse, a fertile ground for legitimating all sorts of Western interventions - racist, imperial - in the name of 'development'. Conrad is deeply ambivalent towards colonial interventions. Conrad's journal from his 1890 trip to Belgian Congo (his experience there formed the basis for the novel) reflects a keen awareness of the frequently brutal treatment of Africans at the hands of white men. In Heart of Darkness, 'savage' Africa is presented as almost attractive and superior to modern European civilization (hence Marlow's dejection on returning to Europe). Conrad seems to imply that what Imperial Rome once did to northern Europe, imperial Europe was doing to the whole world; whether this was a good or a bad thing, remains ambiguous in Conrad's assessment of history. However, Heart of Darkness is thoroughly pervaded by a imagery of wilderness and savagery and a pseudo-evolutionist view of history that Conrad inevitably shares with the racist ideologies of his time. This creates a representation of Africa that tells one nothing about Africa itself, but more about European concerns about it.

What can be said about Heart of Darkness is that, despite its location, it represents European preoccupations and concerns about the colonization of Africa to other Europeans. Africans themselves are but silent objects of discussion. What can be commended about it is that it continues to remind not only Europeans, but others, of the horrors that took place in that time of history.

I'M EDITING THIS DOWN. Guernseykid 03:54, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Here's the new version:

Chinua Achebe has, now famously, argued that Conrad's language and imagery in Heart of Darkness is inescapably racist. {An Image of Africa: Racism in Conrad's "Heart of Darkness"."[1]} In the lecture that formed the basis of the essay, Achebe branded Conrad "A bloody racist" and in the essay he emphasized the implicit and explicit statements of the inferiority of African people to the white explorers. In Heart of Darkness Conrad seems to equate ancient northern Europeans with modern Africans — thereby suggesting that all humans must pass through a similar process of historical development.

From a literary standpoint, Conrad associates 'the wild' with despair, death, savagery, and inhuman acts. Yet, in the novel the brutality is mainly effectuated by Europeans, and in his depiction of London and industrial man he paints a problematic and gloomy picture which offers little alternative. Conrad exhibits primarily a deep ambivalence towards colonial rule. His journal from his 1890 trip to Belgian Congo, which experience formed the basis for the novel, reflects a keen awareness of the frequently brutal treatment of Africans at the hands of white men. Moreover, in Heart of Darkness, 'savage' Africa is presented as often more attractive than, even superior to, modern European civilization (hence Marlow's dejection on returning to Europe). Conrad seems to imply that what Imperial Rome once did to northern Europe, imperial Europe was doing to the whole world; whether this was a good or a bad thing, remains ambiguous in Conrad's assessment of history.

This is an article on the life and literature of an author, not a polemic on racism. Guernseykid 04:38, 26 June 2006 (UTC)


The more I read of this debate, the more it occurs to me that much of this information, with all of its various prejudices and 'POV's, should be placed in the Wikipedia article for 'Heart of Darkness' itself. A lot of what is being said here about what 'Conrad' does in his work, or how 'Conrad' perceives things, is actually discussing Heart of Darkness, and is rather ignorant of anything else Conrad may have written. Until somebody takes the time to write a section on the general development of criticism discussing Conrad, and reads something other than Chinua Achebe or Heart of Darkness, I don't think the section as it stands is very informative at all a propos of the author himself. Gunstar hero 14:19, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I just didn't want to be the one to take the step. It will leave a vacuum that should, thankfully, be filled. Guernseykid 03:18, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Conrad and Racism

This is a very touchy subject. The section on "Criticism" and accusation that Conrad was a racist does not belong here. In Heart of Darkness Conrad painted a very negative picture of colonialism. Yes, by today's standards his text regarding Africans is most definitely crude, however, this is reflective of the state of affairs at the time -- We should not make insane assumptions about Conrad's character simply because he was honest about how the Africans were treated. If he were to have written the story any differently then it would not accurately reflect history. Was Conrad being derogatory towards Blacks, or was he being derogatory towards Whites? I would say the latter. I think it's quite obvious that his words are aimed to hurt the oppressors, and not the oppressed.

From reading Conrad's stories you can come to a lot of different conclusions -- and I think to avoid conflict on this one it's probably best to not have a section on Conrad being a racist. The old section not only said he was a racist, but also implied that the general consensus is that he was a racist -- This is simply not true -- certainly not in the acedemic circles I am active in. Let's not create false/unprovable truths through mass misinformation and selective presentation of opinions.

In order to label him a racist one would have to possess real proof -- such as letters he sent to friends or family, in which he was openly racist -- do we have these? I don't think so. An essay written which takes words and phrases out of context in order to push a biased agenda does not qualify as proof -- but rather is better qualified as 'opinion'. Can we honestly say that Conrad was a racist based on some guy's opinion? I don't think so.

Does it matter what the critics say? I don't think it does. Let's let people read Conrad's material and come to their own conclusions. Injecting pre-conceived notions in to their minds will only cause them to look for problems that may or may not exist.

So let's just leave this section out, okay? It's misleading and really takes away from an otherwise good article.

--Animus9 22:25 May 19, 2005

The fact of the matter is that the debate regarding Conrad's racism or lack thereof (the section as I wrote was intentionally NPOV on the actual determination) has eclipsed almost all other discussion regarding Heart of Darkness and Conrad as a whole. I suggest for starters that you read Achebe's essay; the version I have linked unfortunately is the "revised" version later toned down by the author (I can't find the original online), but is still the "essay heard round the world". You will also find in there that Achebe did, in fact, cite letters and Conrad's personal journal, the "real proof" you're referring to.
Clearly, labelling Conrad a racist is an opinion. The criticism section does not do that, it simply refers to an ongoing debate and a POV which is labelled as a POV. Failing to mention it is, while not NPOV in itself, clearly omitting important information from the article and more misleading than its inclusion.
Do not mistake me; I'm not myself posessed with the need to interpret Conrad's work exclusively in the light of race relations. However, I have to acknowledge that this is currently the most debated element of the man's work. I myself researched extensively on Heart of Darkness (wrote a thesis on it), and dug into more than forty sources across the whole of the 20th century, and can vouch for the unfortunate fact that the debate is both real and overwhelmingly prevalent. As such, I believe this article needs to include some information on the topic; if you want to work with me on just what that information needs to be, I'm open to discussion. As it stands, I'm going to restore the section in question. siafu 07:40, 20 May 2005 (UTC)


Intentionally NPOV? Excuse me, but you have intentionally changed the last statement which clearly labelled him a racist:
"Whether or not Conrad was a racist, however, seems rather clear in that he was; whether or not he was more racist than the average of his time is less clear, and the debate is far from settled."
This certainly was NOT NPOV. It had an agenda, and still does. Calling someone a racist carries with it as much weight as actually being racist. It is not something to toss around lightly.
Achebe's essay is weak. There is NOT adequate proof (in the essay) to claim Conrad was racist. Much of it is based entirely upon readingly deeply into subtle word meanings. The 'real' proof is not real proof at all. It is a couple out of context sentences.
Controversy about whether or not Conrad was racist is mainly popular due to misinformation and ignorance. Wikipedia should not be participating in these shenanigans. The proof is inadequate, therefore the section should not exist. This is not a tabloid for gossip or questionable information. Animus9 8:21 May 20, 2005


It's implicit in the sentence now; I thought you would find it more palatable. It is not a matter of gossip, misinformation and ignorance to say that this is a big deal, because it is. Since 1975, almost every single paper on HoD makes mention of Achebe's essay. Whether or not YOU think Achebe is on to something is up to you, but it is a popular argument; whether or not you want that to be true is also not relevant.
Conrad was a racist. This should surprise no one; he grew up in anti-semitic Poland, and lived in Victorian England. There were relatively few people in either place who were not what we would label in the modern day as "racists". This is widely accepted; the debate centers on whether he was more posessed of these ideas than was average for his time and place. Therefore, the original sentence was not POV, but you labelled the entire thing as misleading, so I changed it to sit better with your objections.

(sorry, but in those times, and many previous ages, there was no so Jewish-friendly countries like Poland. That is why so large amount of Jews decided to live in Poland. Please, belive me, There are fiew contemporary Jewish organizations, who need to prove anti-semitism in Poland to withdraw money from this poor country, and they need that kind of propaganda. I can tell You, most of Jews survive holocaust because of Polish help, help despite of this, if Germans found hided Jews in f.e. basement of polish house, whole polish familly got shut.)

I'm not trying to push an agenda. The fact is that the essay is an incredibly big deal, and as such we need to call it a big deal. The fact is that Conrad thought less of black people than he did of Europeans. I'm willing to not say that explicitly because there are a lot of other similar facts that aren't mentioned, so pointing this one out could be misleading (as you said), and this itself is not a big deal (as mentioned, pretty common for the time). But it's not POV to point these things. I would suggest that if you see this as "gossip" or a "shenanigan" that you do some research; go to an academic library and search under literary criticism for "heart of darkness". The results will bear out the reality of this debate. siafu 16:27, 20 May 2005 (UTC)


Nobody is saying the debate doesn't exist. The argument is whether or not it is worth mentioning. Anybody that writes an essay accusing a well known author of being racist is going to create quite a stir -- but the importance of the essay or its convictions should not be based on how big of a stir it creates, but rather whether or not its arguments are valid. I don't think they are valid -- in fact I think the arguments are rather weak. Your point of view is that they are valid -- but you base this mainly upon the fact that people are stirred up about it -- so what? How many people are going to take the stance that the essay is BS? Not very many.. you know why? because they will be accused of being a racist.
I have read the essay, I have read many essays about Heart of Darkness. It seems many of these essays either repeat the same themes or are essentially essays about prior essays. So what? The essay writers are just rehashing the same material and justifying the existence of their arguments based on the fact that all the other essay writers are saying the same.
Let me remind you that these essays are a subjective analysis, and the conclusions drawn have little to do with the reality of Conrad the man. Neither you, nor I knew Conrad personally, so we cannot say he was racist -- and I think you're crossing an awfully blurry line when you start using the popularity of an argument to justify its existence. Let's not forget that "the earth is flat" argument used to be rather popular.
The problem with the Criticisms section is that you can't really be neutral about calling someone a racist. You've reworded the section so that it is more subtle but it is still flawed. You are providing a single POV. Where are the links to the essays arguing against Achebe's essay? How do we know that Achebe's essay is "the single most famous piece of criticism on Joseph Conrad" ...? are there statistics indicating this? or is it only famous because people think it's famous?
The Criticisms section in its current state is flawed. My own personal opinion is that we could save a whole lot of trouble just by removing it and letting people come to their own conclusions, however, in the spirit of compromise I will see if I can come up with something a little more neutral. --198.163.150.33 17:48, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
The essay exists. It should be mentioned; but not at the present length in an article this size which includes relatively little other criticism or political assessment of Conrad. Omitting the contemporary reception of Conrad - as a blow at Belgian and European colonialism - is disingenuous; asserting "Conrad is racist" as fact is POV; as this discussion should prove. Septentrionalis 20:17, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
Right, I don't disagree. Mentioning it is one thing, in fact I intentionally left the essay in the external links when I removed the section. However, in its current state the section gives the reader the wrong impression. --Animus9 17:00, 20 May 2005
Unfortunately, the fact is that Achebe's essay is probably to most influential critical work on Conrad in the last fifty years. It sparked a firestorm of debate, and it's said firestorm that the section refers to. Moving the section is fine, but it seems that I've been fighting an uphill battle here to demonstrate that what is a rather big deal is not just "gossip" or a "shenanigan". I'm not reporting these things because I want them to be true, I wrote the section because the debate is an overwhelming (overwhelmingly stupid) fact. I myself have done a great deal of research on HoD; I don't personally think it's very productive or informative to see Conrad as merely a racist, or his book as related to racial politics.
As to Conrad himself being a racist, this is not the strong claim it's being taken to be in this discussion. Saying Conrad was a racist is to point out that he was at least of the common POV of the era; he was certainly no sort of egalitarian in the modern sense. It would be exceptional for him to have not been a racist, and unfortunately this has given a great deal of ammunition to Achebe and those who support his POV. siafu 23:36, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
"he grew up in anti-semitic Poland" could you explain that please?--Witkacy 20:39, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
I Concur with Witkacy. Anti-semitic Poland? That is an extremely wrong, hurtful and ignorant statement, esp. since Poland had the largest population of Jews and with the most rights. Please do research before making blatantly offensive and wrong statements such as these. --Vegalabs 02:03, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
Unfortunately it's not wrong, and I'm sorry if you find it hurtful. Poland in the 19th century, along with much of Eastern and Central Europe, was the site of a great deal of religious persecution against Jews. Even the pogroms, the most heinous anti-semitic acts perpetrated before the holocaust, found their way into Poland. siafu 12:42, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Unfortunately it is. First of all, there was no "Poland" on the maps in 19th century. Polish people couldn't perform religious persecutions on anybody, as they themselves were under the oppressive rule of foreign empires at that time (lutheran Prussia and orthodox Russia vs. catholic polish people).

You specifically used the vague phrase "...along with much of Eastern Europe".

This is manipulation - even if not deliberate (which I believe is the case). This is not the right place for discussing European history (no connection to Joseph Conrad). But if I were you, I'd read a bit - starting with the article about pogroms on Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.29.86.27 (talk) 23:56, 28 September 2007 (UTC)



Also, why exactly are criticisms regarding Heart of Darkness on the general page of Joseph Conrad? Shouldn't these criticisms be within the article for Heart of Darkness itself? --Animus9 22:29, 20 May 2005 (UTC)


"Heart of Darkness" isn't about racism or colonialism, and anyone who thinks so has misunderstood the book. It is about the human "heart of darkness", across all races and cultures. --philhirn 22:04, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

It is naive to read the book and not consider race or colonialism. Kingturtle 08:44, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
That is an interpretation that I disagree very strongly with. While saying that Heart of Darkness was purely about colonialism is crazy, it is also not purely a psychological journey. --Saforrest 18:53, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

-Conrad might have been a bit crude in his depictions of blacks, but, he still had some sympathy to see them as human beings being abused. For a person from a time period where the beliefs of non-white people's were rarely taken into consideration without insult, this is quite an accomplishment. In fact, Joseph Conrad can sometime be regarded as liberal and tolerant compared to writers like, say, Rudyard Kipling.

The fact of the matter is that the debate regarding Conrad's racism or lack thereof ... has eclipsed almost all other discussion regarding Heart of Darkness and Conrad as a whole. >>siafu<< in this section above.
Groupthink! I declare. The more people there are who think the same way we do the more clear it becomes that we are all right and they are all wrong. Nothing like the stinging lash of "racism" to herd people into a cohesive formation of unthinking bovines in a slaughterhouse corral. Life is so much easier if all we have to think about is being on the correct side of the racism debate ... I know I feel better -- and somehow much more free to go about my unrewarding 9 to 5 existence. I'm HAPPY! Welcome to the Brave New World folks, if I may mix my literary references. If Orwell didn't invent Groupthink, he should have. Achebe's criticism has some minor validity, but overall it is superficial and weak and mainly serves to deny the reader the opportunity to read a fine piece of literature from a fresh and unspoiled vantage point.
Get a clue, people! Conrad was attacking the very institutions Achebe so reviled. 69.109.165.235 08:21, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Um, don't understand the whole discussion. Surely saying that Conrad is racist by today's standards is like saying that he was also "sexist". It's pretty much a given, since that was the world he lived in. Surely the interesting thing about him is whether, within the context of his time, his views were radical: not whether those views are a perfect match for 1975 / 2006 understandings of "race"?
I'm not a lit crit person and haven't read Achebe's essay, but it sounds like a reaction to a trumpeting of Conrad as anti-racist. Conrad can be both annoyingly racist to a late-C20th reader, and an important challenger of opinion to his intended early C20th audience. And, er, how is any of this news? Come on guys, describe the debate briefly and move on - or I'll fill the damn article with feminist references! JackyR | Talk 23:00, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
You don't understand the discussion-page debate or the discussion in the article itself? If your question is, why do people go on at such length here on the discussion page, the answer is probably that we've all been trained to react compulsively to charges of racism and this is one way of working out the demons. If you want to edit down the treatment in the article go ahead. Read Achebe's essay, though. I don't think there was any notion in 1975 that Conrad was a champion of equality in race relations, nor is there today. At a guess, Achebe may have been disturbed that so many young readers were being exposed to unvarnished "colonial" attitudes without the "benefit" of a modern interpretive lens. It isn't clear to me that he is aware of Conrad's thorough irony in the piece, nor is it clear that he makes a very good case even if everything is taken at face value. "The question is whether a novel which celebrates this dehumanization, which depersonalizes a portion of the human race, can be called a great work of art. My answer is: No it cannot." (Achebe) This is just idiotic, since the novel does not celebrate dehumanization any more than it acts as a cheerleader for race relations. 69.109.165.235 08:21, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

No they were not inhuman. Well, you know that was the worst of it -- this suspicion of their not being inhuman. It would come slowly to one. They howled and leaped and spun and made horrid faces, but what thrilled you, was just the thought of their humanity -- like yours -- the thought of your remote kinship with this wild and passionate uproar. Ugly. (Achebe quoting HoD)

Yes, indeed, a cheerleader for race relations! Who are you people? The obtuseness apparent in the comments on this discussion page, it is truly phenomenal! I feel as if I've slipped into the 19th century here. Shall we all blather on about "unreasoning" "buck niggers", as per Conrad, to "cheerleader for race relations"? The "prehistory" that is the Negro, is that right?
It was a rhetorical flourish in which Achebe called C a racist; Achebe believed that Conrad's was the "dominant image of Africa in the Western imagination", the norm, but no less morally reprehensible for its normalcy, and no less damaging to living Africans. The point wasn't that Conrad was a bad guy, merely that the fruits of his labors showed signs of decay; that that sort of creepy stupidity and ethnic hostility impairs the text aesthetically.DBaba 21:45, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Lagoon

The Lagoon, by Conrad, isn't on Gutenberg; also a Google search for probable keywords didn't return a useful text. There is a link to eBooks@Adelaide ,but it requires another out-of-wikipedia link to get to the story. The Lagoon also has no Wikipedia article and no Wikisource source. I just wanted to note that.

Is it permissable for a user to simply write-out The Lagoon as a text file and upload it? I'm not sure what copyright issues are involved, but as it constitutues Conrad's shortest work it would not really take very long to copy. Gunstar hero 14:22, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unjust

Never mind the racism debate-why is this article so short? This is a piss-poor representation of one of the greatest english-writing novelists ever! He even had an extraordinary life before his writing career. Someone give Conrad his due treatment, as every other author I've looked up on wikipedia gets. Someone besides me that is.

I would agree with your sentiments. The racism debate seems to be fairly irrelevant in the light of the absence of any serious consideration of the continued themes of Conrad's work. Surely this article can be expanded by someone who has studied Conrad to a high level. (not sure how to sign this properly, sorry)

Completely agree with the comments that the article is almost ridiculously short and inadequate for such an important writer. I just finished the huge job of rewriting Henry James up to featured article status, though, so I can see why nobody wants to do a major Conrad rewrite. While we're on Leavis' "great tradition", Jane Austen and George Eliot also need a lot of help. Halfway seriously, maybe we could start a great-tradition collaboration on Wikipedia. Casey Abell 15:27, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
Please note that the racism debate refers to a revert war which has been settled for ten months. Septentrionalis 02:30, 9 March 2006 (UTC)


[edit] link

Hi, I would like to add an external link to the World of Biography entry

  • probably the most famous portal of biography to this article. Does anybody have any objections?

please do not add this to the article, and please read the incident report before giving the go-ahead. This is spam and not link-worthy under WP:EL; the articles contain many distortions, lack citations, and contain nothing that wouldn't fit directly in the wiki article. a link to worldofbiography has been placed on over 70 talk pages by User:Jameswatt. thanks. --He:ah? 20:57, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edit Reversion (23 September 2006)

Tonight reverted Ford Madox Ford (as I had put originally, changed to Maddox). Both names link to the correct article, but Madox is the spelling ... at least it is on the book I'm looking at. I also dropped the definite article from in front of Heart of Darkness, because that's how I've always seen it and it's the way it links to the article. --Sordel 20:36, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Badly vandalised page

This page used to be pretty good and has obviously been badly vandalised - the current style section for example is just a single word. Looking back through the history there are repeated vandalistic attacks from what look like new fake users. I will try to correct but request vigilance from other editors. Goodness knows why a great novelist of 100 years ago should attract such nonsense. A shame as we have recently pointed to this from the United Kingdom page literature section as one of the great foreign writers working from the UK. MarkThomas 22:10, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Most recent attack seems likely to have come from a young person, possibly a school child studying a Conrad set text - with limited appreciation - and venting disrespect. If repeated from the same DNS there are steps that could be taken, but a bit drastic if this turns out to be a school server, as one suspects. --Balliol 17:21, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, perhaps it's dying down a bit now, thanks for your thoughts Balliol. Shaping up to be a much better page again now - good to see someone of Conrad's stature well represented on Wikipedia again. MarkThomas 19:21, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Conrad's coat of arms

I notice Logologist has reverted my correction of the coat of arms caption. Respectfully suggest reconsideration as all family arms are hereditary, thus superflous to describe them as such. In fact it would not be possession of arms that caused one to decline a knighthood in such circumstances but what they signify, namely nobility. --Balliol 21:56, 22 October 2006 (UTC

I have now raised this with Prof. A S Ciechanowieki who states that Conrad did not possess a "Polish hereditary knighthood", and that the reason for declining a British knighthood was not due to entitlement to Polish arms. Accordingly I have deleted references to these points. Prof Ciecnowiecki has put me in touch with the leading Conrad authority and biographer, Prof. Zdzislaw Najder for a definitive explanation of the declined British knighthood, which I will add in due course--Balliol 22:26, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

The Polish Wikipedia article, "Joseph Conrad," states his being "of the coat-of-arms, Nałęcz." I have also seen him listed in reference works as "Teodor Józef Konrad Nałęcz-Korzeniowski." If a "herb" (Polish for "coat-of-arms") means anything, then Conrad was certainly entitled to the use (if he so wished) of the Nałęcz coat-of-arms. logologist|Talk 00:20, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Quite so. It is not his entitlement to bear arms which is disputed, but the suggestion of an hereditary knighthood. I have actually not seen this suggestion elsewhere though that may well say more about the limits of my reading. A coat of arms suggests no more than gentle birth, possibily noble but does not, of course, imply an aristocratic or chivalric title. Prof. Ciechanowicki described the arms born by Conrad as essentially being those of a clan.-- Balliol 20:17, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
The "clan" analogy is misleading. "Clan" members, elsewhere, were not necessarily nobles; Polish szlachta members were.
Poland's szlachta (nobility) comprised ten percent of the country's population—a substantially larger proportion than in other countries.
Poland had no native aristocracy. The Radziwiłłs, Lubomirskis and Czartoryskis owed their aristocratic titles to foreign courts.
Every Polish szlachcic (nobleman) was the equal of every other. An impoverished nobleman might live a peasant's life, yet boast a coat-of-arms and—if he could make it to the electoral convention—vote for the next king at the free election.
This being the case, what could motivate Joseph Conrad to accept a nonheritable British knighthood, when he already possessed an ancient Polish coat-of-arms that passed automatically as well to his sons? logologist|Talk 03:37, 28 October 2006 (UTC)


Rather than speculate on Conrad's motives I will put the question to Prof. Zdzislaw Najder. I think it will be worth waiting for his answer. --Balliol 17:39, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Would you consider expanding the article? It's pretty anemic, for an author worthy of a knighthood. logologist|Talk 20:30, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Yes, agree he deserves better. I do have some material of my own and from friends which I will happily add as soon as I have finished the Anthony Powell and A Dance to the Music of Time entries. May need to touch base with the Financial Times and Conrad Society for consents first. There was a suggestion earlier that some good material had been vandalised, the implication being that it had not been fully restored . . . -- Balliol 17:46, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

May I suggest using a reference to solve this? Would we have any reference that having Polish CoA was the reason he declined British? Or is it just our speculation?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  02:37, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Prof. Ciechanowieki believes the knighthood issue is addressed in Najder's forthcoming book, part of the draft of which he has seen. Am pursuing. --Balliol 17:46, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
It's only a guess, but Polish nobility with all its privileges was abolished after WWI when the Second Republic was created. Since then people have used their CoA traditionally, but generally the old titles of their families have no other meaning but the sentimental one. Quite differently to how it is in the UK. So indeed his Polish title might have not been the reason, however, if he was of the same opinion that Polish politicians he might have rejected an English title just in support of democracy.--SylwiaS | talk 01:42, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
I am new to this discussion, but if Conrad declined on the grounds that it was not hereditary, then surely a man of his stature (one of the greatest living novelists of the time) could have intimated that a baronetcy would have been more to his liking, carrying as it does a hereditary title of "Sir" or "Dame"? I would be very interested to hear of his true reasons for declining it. --Harlsbottom 19:03, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Conrad's biographer, Professor Zdzisław Najder, has kindly replied to my enquiry on this question. I quote his conclusions with consent "There could have been various reasons: from his awareness that the British govt. had been much less than friendly to re-born Poland in 1918 and 1920 - to his general reticence in participating in British political life (he never voted in parliamantary elections) and his unwillingness to accept official honours (he refused several honorary doctoral degrees). But to me the simplest and the most likely reason was his awareness that he belonged to a noble family with roots reaching back at least to the XVIth C. He was acutely conscious of having broken the line of patriots serving his home country; accepting the knighthood could have seemed to him as a confirmation of his own desertion."

I feel this vindicates both Logologist's original argument and much of the subsequent debate, and accordingly would suggest that the present wording of the entry might stand. For those interested page 488 of Prof. Najder's biography refers. -- Balliol 15:10, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Emotional Development

I have added a subsection on Conrad's failed love affair in Mauritius recounted in his novella, The Smile of Fortune. Compared to the present length of the whole Conrad entry this may seem over long; however the intention is to do justice to him by expanding the entire entry. -- Balliol 23:18, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Nice addition—and in no way too long. logologist|Talk 00:56, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for your encouragement. I wonder if we might not standardise on UK English following Wiki guidelines, this being a British writer, albeit naturalised (not sure how many of us could negotiate Polish spelling)?
Incidently a distinguished Polish-American academic, Dr S. Klimczuk, has just complimented the entry for its handling of the Polish dimension. Not my doing, but I pass the laurel on. -- Balliol 16:28, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
By all means. Please rectify any UK-English-usage transgressions on my part, inadvertent or otherwise. And again, my compliments on your work with this subject. logologist|Talk 02:38, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Latest additions nicely streamline the entry. Dr Klimczuk suggests that the missing element is a subsection on Conrad's technique and its evolution. Not something I feel qualified to attempt but perhaps Logologist or another contributor would consider undertaking this? --Balliol 20:38, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Excellent subsection on Style, Logolist. The quotations at the conclusion are telling. The entry is greatly strengthened by recent additions, I think -- Balliol 23:30, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Age of learning English?

I have modified the statement that Conrad did not learn English until he was 21. In 'A Personal Record' he states that his first introduction to the English language was at the age of eight. Perhaps he did not become fully proficient until 21? --Balliol 22:44, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm no Conrad expert, but good call as far as I know - his father Apollo Korzeniowski was an aristocrat and a poet and translator of English and French literature, so presumably from early childhood the young Conrad was immersed in languages including English. MarkThomas 22:03, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Issues with his name

Which name did he use in British documents? Has he ever changed his name or was Conrad only his pen name? Xx236 14:50, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

According to my sources he has never changed his name to Joseph Conrad. The article suggests he has. Either my sources are wrong or the article is POV. Xx236 16:14, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Where does it imply in the article that he did change his name? Or are you talking about the page name? The page name is using (for the English language edition) the name he is most widely known as in the world, and then correctly giving his full Polish name in the lead section. MarkThomas 16:21, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

In the Polish edition, the corresponding article likewise appears under the same title — "Joseph Conrad." logologist|Talk 05:49, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I mean born Teodor Józef Konrad Korzeniowski. Doesn't it at least suggest that he changed his name? See Mark Twain : Samuel Langhorne Clemens (November 30, 1835 – April 21, 1910),[1] better known by the pen name Mark Twain. Xx236 09:59, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Are you suggesting that he himself deliberately used the pen-name "Joseph Conrad" and that this should be mentioned in the article? My understanding was that he was just generally known by this anglicisation and therefore that is what he is known as internationally. However, it would agreed be interesting to know if this was foisted on him by the publishers and reluctantly agreed to by him, or positivily agreed. I will go back to my Penguin Classic Conrads and see if there's anything in the notes about it! MarkThomas 10:02, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

The article says that the first part of his name is “Teodor Józef”, but I thought it was “Józef Teodor” (as indeed the audio file of his Polish name shows). Maybe clarification is in order. Firen Drakendorf 16:52, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Polish Wikipedia gives "Teodor Józef Konrad Korzeniowski." You might want to take it up with them. logologist|Talk 00:23, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

HE DID CHANGE HIS NAME!! THE JACKET ON MY COPY OF HEART OF DARKNESS SAYS HIS ORIGINAL NAME WAS: JOZEF TEODOR KONRAD NALECZ KORZENIOWSKI

[edit] Brando did read HoD

I removed the reference to Marlon Brando being the only star of Apocalypse Now not to read Heart of Darkness, because he did. Eventually. Francis Ford Coppola recalls: "I said, "You said you had read [the book]," and he said, "I lied." He had read it that night and shaved his head the next morning." (see http://home.nyc.rr.com/alweisel/premieremarlonbrando.htm ). Leberquesgue 23:11, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Photo of Joseph Conrad

Does anyone know why his photo was deleted from the Commons? Surely the copyright would have run out? logologist|Talk 04:45, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I've located and restored Conrad's photograph. If it was deleted from the Commons, it's there now. logologist|Talk 05:58, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Samulili has improvidently deleted the classic photo of Joseph Conrad that used to grace this article. It would be good if a replacement could be found, in lieu of the pen-and-ink sketch that is keeping its place warm for now. Nihil novi 23:39, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] proposed External Link

I'd like to add a link like:

to the External Links section. This links to a list of Conrad works that you can download to read on a cell phone. I have read quite a few from this site and got a lot of value out being able to read the PD texts away from the PC.

The texts are Public Domain in the US, just like Project Gutenberg, they are packaged with the reader and available under a creative commons licence (share if (attribution, non-commercial, no derivative) ). The site is non-commercial without registration, subscription, or advertising. The texts as packaged together with the reader as a java program that runs on cell phones, this is a way for people to access the authors work that adds to the range in the existing external links (hopefully translating to more reading going on).

I checked WP:EL and the link seems appropriate:

  • What should be linked: '...should link to a site hosting a copy of the work if none of the "Links normally to be avoided" criteria apply.'
  • Links normally to be avoided: it seems only #8 might apply; 'Direct links to documents that require external applications (such as Flash or Java) to view the relevant content...'. The site lets you download java programs that only run on a J2ME environment, this means most/all current cell phones. So although they are limited to being read on a phone they do add an access method to all the others in the existing External Links, in the same way that LibriVox adds a format but requires an mp3 player.

Filomath 08:12, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Inconsistencies, dates

"The Secret Sharer" is included in both the novel and the short-story list (with different dates in each), as is "Freya of the Seven Seas." Llajwa 19:18, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

It says in the article he is Polish born but in the side bar that he was born in the Ukraine ??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.29.134.166 (talk) 21:55, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Good catches both! I clarified The Secret Sharer as it has a confusing publication history. It looks like some people consider "Freya" a short story and others a novella. I'm unsure if there's a scholarly consensus. As for his birth, also confusing: his family was Polish, but he was born in modern day Ukraine which was then part of the Russian Empire. --JayHenry 22:17, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Deathbed conversion?

Is there a reference for this: Shortly before his death, he took last rites and asked to be buried as a Roman Catholic, the faith in which he had been raised and which during adulthood he had abandoned for atheism.. From this link it seems like there is no cross or religious references on his grave: http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=20386 212.79.87.141 09:58, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

This was a comment by me, I have made myself a wiki user and have removed the text, I think there should be a reference for something like that. Belgianatheist 13:34, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
I agree. I've never seen mention of such an incident. Thank you. Nihil novi 17:15, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tadeusz Bobrowski

When I search for a Wikipedia article on Joseph Conrad's maternal uncle, Tadeusz Bobrowski, I get shunted to the article on his nephew, Joseph Conrad. I wanted to write an article on Bobrowski but am unable to because of this weird link. Can anybody clear it, so the "Tadeusz Bobrowski" article can get written? Nihil novi (talk) 00:29, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Problem resolved, Bobrowski article written. Nihil novi (talk) 04:22, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Short story or novella

I'm wondering how Wikipedia classifies some of his works. For example the article classifies "The End of the Tether" as a short story, but it is longer than either Heart of Darkness or The Nigger of the Narcisus, which are of course rightly called novellas. Likewise The Secret Sharer is classified as a novella, but it is shorter in comparison to many of his "short stories". Any help appreciated. 71.191.137.121 (talk) 00:15, 17 March 2008 (UTC)