User talk:Jonas Poole

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[edit] Basque sailors

In reply to your questions:

1. No. I haven't yet done the article on Basque navigation or mariner actvities or whichever name it may eventually have. The reason for it is that I don't feel now equally motivated to work for/in Wikipedia in general (mostly for reasons of Anglo/US-centrism. I would feel more at ease in a encyclopedia that has a clear globalist viewpoint, not an ethnic one).

2. My most available sources for what I wrote are:

  • La Navarra Maríitima of T. Urzainqui and J.M de Olaizola. Pamiela, 1998. ISBN 84-7681-293-0
  • Les Basques dans l'estuaire du Saint-Laurent by R. Bélanguer. Les Presses de l'Univeristé du Quebec, 1971. ISBN 0-7770-0026-1
  • Itsasoa encyclopedia, vol.3 (Los vascos en el marco del Atlnático Norte. siglos XVI y XVII). Etor argitaletxea, 1992. ISBN 84-85527-29-1

The most important source is probably the first one, elaborated by Navarrese historians. Its chapter XIII is dedicated to the "Activity of Navarrese harbours", including those that were annexed by Castile in 1200 and those of Labourd that were under English and later French rulership but that served Navarre anyhow (as did Bayonne after the loss of Gipuzkoa) or were otherwise of Basque ethnicity. It reads (page 214):

Existe un documento, una factura, que se remonta al año 670, época de los ducados de Aquitania y Vasconia y mucho antes de que los vikingo-normandos se apoderaran de Baiona en el año 844. Este documeto representa un envío hecho por vascones de 40 moyos (barricas de unos 250 litros cada una) de aceite de ballena para el alumbrado de la abadía de Jimièges. Dicho documento lod io a conocer Joseph Garat a Marcel Heruper en la Revue Maritime [footnote: Garat, J. Itsasoa, vol. 6, p. 313], añadiendo que dada la lejanía de Jimièges -que se encontraba a orillas del Sena entre Ruan y El Havre-, para que se hiciera un pedido de aceite tan importante era necesario que la fama de los balleneros de Vasconia fuese antigua y bien asentada, no dependiendo de presas ocasionales. Garat señala también que el documento no indica como fueron transportados los 40 moyos de "sain" (grasa de ballena), pero dado que en aquellos remotos tiempos no existían caminos transitables que enlazaran puntos muy distantes, habrá que pensar que el transporte se hizo por mar desde Baiona hasta El Havre, para continuar por tierra hasta la abadía de Jumièges.

Brief synthesis in English: There's a bill note of the year 670 that registers a delivery of 40 "moyos" (barrels of 250 litres) of whale fat, sent by Basques to the abbey of Jumièges, between Le Havre and Rouen, for its use in ilumination. J. Garat, the one who revealed this important document (in the Revue Maritime and later in Itsasoa encyclopedia, vol. 3) suggested that due to the large distance the delivery was surely made by sea to Le Havre. He also suggested that such an important request by such a distant monastery could only be done if Basques already had a well estabilished fame of whale hunters, not depending in occasional prey.

The chapter follows with references to early sailings of Basques as registered or speculated by earlier historians:

  • Bertrand d'Argentré, who lived in the second half of the 16th century, was the first one who sustained in his History of Brittany that Basques, Bretons and Normands were the first ones to reach Terre Neuve (Newfoundland, but then applied to all North America, as registered by Oyenart in 1636) before any other people.
  • Belgian whale scientist Van Beneden claimed in 1892 that the Basques "in the late 14th cantury, year 1372, turned to the west and saw the whales numbers increase due to the approach to the Newfoundland Banks". This belief is sustained by other scholars such as Dr. Camino y Orella (History of the City of St. Sebastian), A. Irigaray (1971) and Robert de Loture (1946). But is not supported by any document AFAIK.
  • Several old sources suggest that Cristopher Colombus drew his knowledge from the existence of some lands at reach by the west from these fishermen of Newfoundland, mostly Basques but also Bretons and others. This seems to be the opinon of Etienne Cleirac (Us et costumes de la mer, 1661) and of Esteban de Garibay (1571). This last one says:

Siendo Cristóbal Colón hombre avisado y práctico en el arte de la navegación y viendo de hacer cartas de navegar, casó en la isla de Madera, a donde una nao vizcaína, o según otros andaluza o portuguesa, avía los años pasados aportado, aviendo con tormentas y tiempos contrarios descubierto parte de las tierras que agora dezimos Indias Occidentales o Nuevomundo, antes Terranova

Translation: Being C. Colombus a knowledgeable and practical man in the art of sailing and wnating to make naval charts, he resided in the island of Madeira, where a Biscaynne ship, or according to others Andalusian or Portuguese, had in previous years docked, [and] due to storms and difficult weather discovered part of the lands that we now call Western Indies or New World and before Newfoundland

  • A. Irigaray also says (1971) that:

In 1412 there were Basque fishermen in Iceland, to where the chased whales fled. Of the long stances of these sailors a Basque-Icelandic vocabulary [dictionary] is preserved in the Library of the Gipuzkoan Government.

I think it's this last one about which you were asking.

--Sugaar 19:02, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Sure, you can use what I quoted/excerpted as source for whatever you wish.
Regarding the presence of Basques in Iceland in 1412, there's that Basque-Icelandic dictionary as evidence (though I'm not sure how well it is dated). Anyhow, I must mention that while most sources seem to emphasize whaling (somehow capriciously), it was probably cod fishing what most motivated the travels of Basque sailors. Also it's maybe worth mentoning that Basques don't seem to have ever been consumers of whale meat, that they considered inferior and sold to French and Castilians, but they did and do consume often all kind of fish, including (salted and de-salted) cod, that is still a star of Basque cuisine.
This discrepancy between the historians' emphasis on whaling and the real dominant activity of cod fishing is probably part of the reason your Icelandic reference talks of fishing ships and not whalers.
I'm not sure about this but it seems to me that long distance whaling then only could produce whale oil, while cod fishing conservation problems were solved easily by salting its meat, proccess that I suspect not so easily applicable to whale meat. --Sugaar 12:54, 27 April 2007 (UTC)


Not sure about Iceland, but there's aboundant documentition about Basques being in Newfoundland and other areas of Atlantic Canada in the early 16th century. Before this date, everything is speculative. Again it seems cod fishing pre-dated whaling in that area.

Itsasoa encyclopedia recopilates a lot of said documents and agrees with you in the glossary being dated to the 17th or 18th centuries, wich is also included.

Anyhow, Trausti Einarsson, author of one of the articles on Basque presence in Iceland in said encyclopedia, argues that, while documentation is incomplete, it's very likely that Basques visited the island since the late Middle Ages, the same that English did (heading to Bourdeaux at the end of their journey). Nevertheless he argues that Irish and American waters were enough for Basque fishing demand until the 16th century. In any case, in 1615 the wreckage of a Basque ship is extensively documented at Iceland, with a massacre of part of the survivors by local troops. It seems there was real animosity between Basques and Icelanders by this time. --Sugaar 07:20, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

On the use of my real name, I really see no reason for which it would be more authoritative than "Sugaar from Wikipedia". After all i'm just some unknown Basque guy whose name would not add any authority to anything, really. --Sugaar 07:23, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry but I can't find anything specific to Ireland or the Irish banks, apart of the already mentioned references above and a beautiful map of the island in double page. Most of the volume is a succesion of legal documents of the period, along with historical articles and many illustrations (charts, drawings and modern photos mostly), almost all focused on Newfouland. Nothing specific on Ireland.
For your illustration I'll add a simplified index of this 3rd volume of Itsasoa (the rest of the volumes, not the full work, as he bought it 2nd hand, is in my father's home and verse mostly on other issues):
  • Newfoundland an Labrador: physical geography
  • The whales that were captured by the Basques
  • Basques and transatlantic fisheries, 1517-1713 (main body):
    • Prologue
    • 1. From the European coasts to the province of Newfouland and the Granbaya (1539-59)
    • 2. The Belle Isle strait during the apogee of Basque whaling (1559-79)
    • 3. European conflicts, with royal embarkments and the role of Burgos consulate
    • 4. Folowing the route of Detcheberry along the western coast of Newfoundland
    • Epilogue
  • Naval construction in Zumaia 1560-1600
  • Echoes of Newfoundland in poem-like style (in Basque language mostly)
  • Basque whalers in Iceland
And that's it. --Sugaar 11:09, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
Also I must correct an earlier assumtion I made in this conversation: whale meat was actually that main product of Newfoundland whaling early on and it was preserved in salt. Oil was only exploited later when ovens were built in the Canadian coasts. Still the early travels to Newfoundland were "cod journeys", not whaling ones. --Sugaar 11:13, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] North Atlantic Right Whale

moved as requested. cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:13, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

PS: I have some experience with the Featured Article process if you ever want to collaborate on one to get to FA. cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:13, 31 August 2007 (UTC)


OK -here are the templates, just slot in the info an' Bob's yer uncle...cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 08:11, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] History of whaling

Actually your prose is pretty good and will only require minor massaging methinks. Chack out this as it may be helpful:

cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:03, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jan Mayen as a Dutch whaling base

This section needs to be rewritten, as Black Tusk did not carefully read through his source. Because of his/her hasty writing it is currently inaccurate. When I have the time I hope to fix his/her mistakes. Jonas Poole 02:52, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

All of wikipedia is inaccurate, to some degree, and there is no need for above message: if you think there is something wrong, fix it. This might have taken you less time than writing the above. Wikipedia works as well as it does because editors add and correct data wherever they feel they can contribute. If every specialist starts to insult well-meaning non-specialists because they were not fully accurate or misinterpreted something, the first will end up having to do everything him/herself (which usually doesn't happen, because most experts like to get credit for their writing and scholarship). You could have complimented me on the correct spelling of Spitsbergen or the fact that I've tried to explain why it is known that Hudson did not discover Jan Mayen rather than saying “There is no evidence for Hudson discovering Jan Mayen. You know why? Because HE DIDN'T.” And, believe it or not, experts make mistakes too. The second line on your “accurate and reliable” website ("What archeologists found were Neolithic rock cravings..."), for example, is one for the ages... In wikipedia well-meaning passers-by not shied away by angry experts would have corrected this. Afasmit 04:48, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
No problem. I think you've immerged yourself in a fascinating subject and your website is a great source of information. And I'm not saying that it is full of typos; I just started reading it and wondered how they figured out that the ancient Chinese had a craving for rocks;-) I wrote my text mostly to record the history of discovery (and found some interesting family relationships of Jan Mayen to boot)., the whaling base text I extended since the text "Commercial whaling took also place between 1614 and 1640 by the Dutch but ended when the Dutch team of seven died of scurvy and the Greenland right whale nearly became extinct." seemed wrong and a bit short for the only period it was of some importance. Now have learned that your alias is that of a British whaler of the 1610s, "had effectively monopolized whaling in most of the Arctic Sea over those years" must have been the offending sentence of my text. That's an exaggeration; I meant to write "dominate", but I may still be misinformed. I also wonder if the three weeks to reach Jan Mayen from Holland (which is supposedly how long it took De Ruyter at least once) is normal. Seems like a lot. Afasmit 00:37, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Whaling station on Deadman's Island

Hi Jonas. My source for that was Mark Leier, Red Flags and Red Tape: The Making of a Labour Bureaucracy. He gives 2 citations for the paragraph that was mentioned in. One was Vancouver by Eric Nicol. I have that book, and the whaling station reference doesn't come from there. The other was W. C. McKee, "The Vancouver Park System, 1886-1929: A Product of Local Businessmen," Urban History Review 3 (1978), 33-49, which I don't have. But you're probably right that there's confusion, likely originating with McKee. That point stuck out at me because I'd never heard of that before and I've read a lot of Vancouver history. On further reflection it seems unlikely, especially so if there was a whaling station on another Deadman's Island. I also recall reading somewhere that the last time whales were spotted in the Burrard Inlet was in the 1860s. I'll remove it until such time I come across a more definitive source. Good catch; it illustrates an advantage of Wikipedia over "more reliable" published sources. bobanny (talk) 07:28, 2 February 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Thomas Edge

I noticed this new article, and looked at some of your others. impressive work in an unusual area. Keep it up--we need articles like this. DGG (talk) 06:55, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Caught vs. killed

Oh, thanks. I hadn't thought of that! Djk3 (talk) 05:49, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Wrong Right Whale

You'd get better return on investment directing your taxonomy and common name updates to the California Department of Fish and Game. Their Complete List of ... Species in California was the source used for List of mammals in California. --Justin (talk) 17:03, 5 May 2008 (UTC)