Talk:Joni Mitchell

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Joni Mitchell was a good article, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Delisted version: March 25, 2006


Contents

[edit] Influence On Other Artists

Joni Mitchell is one of the greatest song-writers of all time. Surely a more impressive list of artists she's influenced could be found? I would rather the list currently given be removed than remain in its current state - it's not representative of her standing at all, so is irrelevant in my opinion. For instance - George Michael? Madonna? Please. Most of the other artists are minor.

Dylan's use of open tunings on Blood On The Tracks - a legendary album, of course - was most likely heavily influenced by Joni Mitchell. The Heylin biography of Dylan, if I recall correctly, is a reference for this. Perhaps someone could dig it out and mention this? --172.202.206.191 08:35, 15 June 2007 (UTC)


This page does not represent in just form the influence and the relevance Joni Mitchell has brought upon established artists, notables and the general public. I am not a writer, but there must be someone who will write a more astute account of her life. A few things I know from reputable interviews given by the following notables, and a live discussion by Joni Mitchell; 1. In a past Rolling Stone interview, Prince stated that Joni Mitchell was his biggest musical and lyrical influence. On most of his compiled recordings he makes some reference to her. 2. Dylan is one of the only people from her past she still speaks with and he refers to her as his equal but only when he thinks of her as a man. 3. The King of Sweden requested her presence at a banquet, at his palace, to honor her for her brilliance and for his personal love of her music. 4. President Clinton named his daughter Chelsea after Joni Mitchell's song "Chelsea Morning". 5. Charles Mingus wrote six songs titled, Joni 1,2,3,4,5,6,. He sought her out to write the lyrics to them even though he had not yet met her when he wrote the songs. 6. Joni Mitchell's speech at The Commonwealth Club of San Francisco, challenged organized religion in a form comparable to Stephen Dawkins, and summed up the demise of the earth and the human specie more profoundly then most renowned philosophers. 7. An Ivy league American University (I can't remember which one), teaches a class on the analysis of Joni Mitchell's music.

These are a few items that I hope will inspire an intelligent and interested writer, to rewrite some of this page so as to represent her more accurately. I am no Mitchell expert but I just happened to come to this discussion page and felt I should comment on the few things I do know. SurferStan

[edit] External link

Under "External Link" should include www.jonimitchell.com

Your wish is my command -- User:GWO

Your link to "Chuck Mitchell" is not correct. It links to an actor named Chuck Mitchell who was not her husband.

[edit] Suggestion for 'Vocalists with stylistic connections'

I think perhaps Tori Amos should be added to this list. Anyone who seconds this, is welcome to do the addition. Maybe just my opinion.

[edit] Vocalists with stylistic connections

I've removed this section from the article. It seems very POV to me. I can imagine it being rewritten as a NPOV section discussing Joni's influence and connections with other singers. Unless the connections are stated explicitly and backed up with sources I don't think this section should be in the article. (Though it can continue to remain here on the talk page.) I can imagine something like...

So-and-so credits Mitchell as being the inspiration of her singing style. In a 19XX interview So-and-so said "blah blah blah Joni Mitchell..." ==Samuel Wantman 06:39, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Here's the list as it was before being removed...

Ani Difranco said once 'These alternative tunings always seem like a real good idea when I'm at home and they're written out in front of me. I once saw Joni Mitchell play a show and she was just standing there for like ten minutes going, 'ah..., ah...' trying to re-tune her guitar to some ridiculous tuning. I felt that it affirmed my whole life.....

You know it's funny, I spent last August with Mr. Bob Dylan. I was touring/opening shows for him and ever since then...all the interviewers keep asking me..'What was it like touring with God?' and 'What words of wisdom did he bestow upon you?'...There's this kind of religion of hyperbole that surrounds Bob and 'long live the church of Bob.' You know, I would never attempt heresy in that area, especially not in my line of work, but it's funny because Bob was never really a deity for me, not anywhere near the scope of which Joni Mitchell was and I think that respecting his work...is a good idea...he's done quite a few cool things...but it seems that in the states, the canon of Bob seems to become deeper and richer and more ingrained in my culture every day and Joni seems to be systematically forgotten and periodically condescended to by the media....It's really strange to me, not as strange as I wish it was to me. It's actually quite familiar.

I think there's something very elusive about, the sort of liberal, open, inclusive, revolutionary, folk singing, change the world 60's scene that wasn't quite ready for a babe. To listen to people talk these days, it seems like all those voices have come down to one, in our collective memory. Anyway, I'd just like to put my vote in for Joni....as I'm struggling with this tuning..." (80.46.170.115 20:34, 6 May 2005 (UTC))

'when making someone unaware aware of Mitchell's allure, he would simply "roll them a joint", and ask that they enjoy the experience.'

Am I the only one who finds this desperately unclear?

No, really not. I presume it means someone unaware of JM's allure is made aware with the joint. (How that increases awareness is quite another Q.)
On a separate issue, saying "pregnant with no other option" is, IMHO, POV. From a purely neutral standpoint, surely abortion is an option. Whether JM accepted it as an option is another matter; if N, say so. If that's the writer's POV, take it out. (I shan't, I've no idea what she thought.)

One bit of trivia, if anybody cares (or thinks it should go in), Graham Nash played harmonica on "I'm a Radio" (or so I heard...) Trekphiler 10:42, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

"I really tried to make sense out of your comments on the Joni Mitchell page. You must have really been high, try pulling your head out of your ass.... 209.244.31.190"
You wanna be an asshole, do it somewhere else. Leave it off my page. My only "hi" comment was "One bit of trivia, if anybody cares (or thinks it should go in), Graham Nash played harmonica on "I'm a Radio" (or so I heard...)". Pull your own head out of your ass. Or call your proctologist. Trekphiler 20:07, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Featured Music Project evaluation

Joni Mitchell has been evaluated according to the Featured Music Project criteria, most recently affirmed as of this revision. The article's most important issues are listed below. Since this evaluation, the article may have been improved.

The following areas need work to meet the criteria: Lead - Pictures - Audio - References
The space below is for limited discussion on this article's prospects as a featured article candidate. Please take conversations to the article talk page.
  • Lead: Should be 2-3 paragraphs
  • Pictures: Needs fair use rationale, more pics maybe
  • Audio: None
  • References: None
  • Format/Style generally okay, but needs a copyedit

[edit] Delisted GA

Hi. I have removed this article from the Wikipedia:Good article listing due to the following:

  • No references. One of the GA criteria is that a reference section must be provided. Inline citations are preferred but not required. When this issue has been addressed, please feel free to re-nominate. Thanks! Air.dance 04:06, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Big Yellow Taxi

On the list of her hit singles, I don't see "Big Yellow Taxi" listed. I am pretty sure that was a hit of Mitchell's. Can anyone verify the date of it's release on radio? fishhead2100 May 1, 2006 12:02AM (UTC)

It's listed twice, once in 1970, then live recording in 1975. Look again ... Wasted Time R 10:40, 1 May 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Patricia Barber

I think something like this should be inserted into Influences section:

Also, jazz pianist Patricia Barber cites Joni Mitchell as a major influence for her album "Verse".

It could be formulated in a nicer way, of course. Anyway, if someone is interested, here is the source:

http://www.patriciabarber.com/press/allaboutjazz2002.htm

May-hem 17:02, 3 August 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Maidstone, Saskatchewan

We're missing Maidstone (and North Battleford) from the "Early Life" section: see [[1]]. I think this is a significant omission, since Maidstone is one of the very few Canadian places mentioned by Joni Mitchell in her song lyrics ("Song For Sharon").

Solness 14:32, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Woodstock"

The page on Woodstock (song) says she passed up playing there to be on the Tonight Show, but this page says it she was playing on the Dick Cavvett show. If anyone knows which one it was, could you fix whichever? --Chinawhitecotton 23:24, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

It was Cavett, for certain. NickBurns 18:34, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Artists who are influenced

Listen, I love Joni, etc. but quite frankly, if we listed every person influenced by her the article would need its own server.

I'm thinking we should keep the list as succinct as possible. One other option is to create a page on its own of artists influenced by her. That would keep things clear. NickBurns 18:34, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

That isn't a bad idea though. I was going to mention Fairport Convention, who covered several of her songs as early as 1968 (They played "Chelsea Morning" on their first album) 172.212.38.134 11:17, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Develop a link to The Gaslight South

The manager of the Gaslight South, Samuel Leighton Hood, passed away recently according to a September 7, 2007 NYT obituary: http://groups.google.com/group/alt.obituaries/browse_thread/thread/b072c7dcba985379/40d4b90e98a8f67e It would be nice to develop a page for The Gaslight and the Gaslight South and perhaps Samuel Leighton Hood, it was where Joni was "discovered" by David Crosby and it was an important venue in other ways. southern students for choice 00:31, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Joni MilesofAisles.jpg

Image:Joni MilesofAisles.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 06:22, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Hejira.jpg

Image:Hejira.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 23:13, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use - discography

The use of images not in compliance with our fair-use criteria or our policy on nonfree content is not appropriate, and the images have been removed. Please do not restore them. -- Merope 18:50, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Opinion piece

I don't normally tag articles as I prefer to work on them myself but this article has far too much opinons than I feel capable of dealing with. If you look at this you can see where I removed some of the material that looks like it should have been in a magazine article. There is no way an encyclopedia article should contain a sentence starting with "I" nor should it be commenting on her smoking. These could be included if they were direct quotes from another source.

Some of the material that needs removing or re-writing can be seen in the Joni Mitchell#1960s folk singer section. Read the last paragraph. It contains phrases like "...the album is one her most innocent and beautiful collections of material." There are also sentences like "Those who consider her a musical genius of the first rank at first may not detect the same level of brilliance displayed in her paintings." which again is an opinion piece. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 15:01, 18 December 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Wikipedia's Creators Seem to Love Mediocrity and Subjective Information So Long as It Is "Cited"

I have to agree with CambridgeBayWeather. There were long stretches of the article that reflected someone's intimate knowledge of Joni Mitchell's discography and her musical, social, and cultural impact going all the way back to her early days, which was before most readers and contributors to this website were born. Some of this info was detailed and specific. I've removed all of that material, which I personally contributed. My assessment of Wikipedia has gone down several notches after seeing what gets added to certain articles, what gets edited out quickly, and what remains without objection -- for example, all that crap about Joni's musical legacy by some dipwit who doesn't know the first thing about Joni Mitchell and was probably born yesterday. I would only suggest to all the kids running this website that perhaps they ought to take a good science or history course. Citations from almost any magazine, newspaper, or even book you can name are not necessarily any more credible or accurate than an informed individual's opinion, and in fact, may be less so, especially today, when any sort of drivel can be published while well thought-out and researched material is regularly and routinely rejected by established publishing interests. If you kids don't know this yet, then you shouldn't be attempting to write an encyclopedia until you've learned a lot more about life. (Papa'sHeir 12-26-07) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Papa'sHeir (talk • contribs) 12:32, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

- I read over some of your stuff and thought it was fantastic, but perhaps better suited to the articles on her individual albums rather than her biography? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.237.33.95 (talk) 11:27, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:JoniMitchellWomanHeart-1.jpg

Image:JoniMitchellWomanHeart-1.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 22:51, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Smoker

Joni is a lifelong and committed smoker. Is this worth a mention in the article somewhere? SmokeyTheCat  •TALK• 14:22, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] JoniMitchell.com - official?

JoniMitchell.com has an impressive URL and very nice design, but it doesn't appear official. The legal section there says:

JoniMitchell.com is privately maintained, managed, funded, and hosted by Les Irvin, who is solely responsible for its content.
Neither Joni Mitchell, her management, her record company, or other affiliated organizations have any involvement whatsoever in the site's content and financial decisions etc.

So it looks like it's a private site. I'm changing the external link title. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 12:45, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism, and ethnicity

(1) I notice that on the Sami People page, Joni Mitchell is listed (and pictured) as a famous person of Sami descent. If true (and I've no reason to doubt it), it would be good to have a mention of this in her own article, which I can't currently see.

She has said in an interview that her father is Norwegian Sami, and her mother is Irish. But I'm not sure where in the article this should go. [2] lk (talk) 15:07, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

(2) Completely unrelatedly, I noticed on coming here (to check out the above) a couple of vandalisms in the second para of the lede. Someone who knows how might like to revert them.

Bright Blessings on Beltane! 87.81.230.195 (talk) 07:26, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Juno Awards

Interestingly, there seems to be no mention of her Juno Awards awards, except for the category but her Grammy Awards are mentioned. Strange considering she is Canadian. NorthernThunder (talk) 09:17, 11 June 2008 (UTC)