Talk:Jonathan Idema

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[edit] The role of speculation and citation in this article?

The second paragraph of the Afghan section currently reads:

"However, it is precisely because of his high profile and openness with the media that it is unlikely that Idema was officially connected with any branch of the military; covert operatives go to great lengths to avoid public appearances and media contacts. It is more likely, though, that Idema was operating in Afghanistan via independent financial backing, seeking the US$25 million bounty posted on bin Laden..."

Well, that sounds like speculation to me. My understanding of the no original research policy is that this kind of speculation can be included -- if the article is citing or quoting a verifiable, authoritative source.

There are verifiable sources that quote the claims Idema made in the Afghan court. Here is one:

America Disowns Idema Amid Cover-Up Claims
[http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/3B6E7737-7468-4C4C-BC29-37A1F6EAE44A.htm US 'bounty hunter' claims FBI links
Private jail: FBI accused of cover-up

Here is the key part:

"In front of the judge is the receipt that the FBI signed. Why did the judge allow the FBI to take evidence from the NDS?" Idema questioned, alleging that 500 pages of documents, 200 videotapes and at least 400 photographs had been seized.

"Now it's at the US embassy where no one is ever going to see it."

I'd like to include Idema's claims. Trouble is, it doesn't fit if the article already takes a stand that he is a fantastist.

So, if that 2nd paragraph came from a verifiable, citable source, it should be cited. Agreed? If it is the speculation of one of our fellow contributors should it be cut? Shouldn't we be setting the facts before the reader, and letting them make up their own minds? -- Geo Swan 19:26, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

There is a reference to "Yunis Qanooni" in the later section that's currently red-linked. Should this be "Yunus Qanuni"? --Bearda 15:09, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I can't seem to verify the last paragraph that Idema had been cleared of all charges. The linked article seems to have disappeared, and all other sources state that Edward Caraballo was released, but make no mention of Idema being cleared. Does anyone else have support for this claim? -- Bearda 16:00, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

The latest is that Idema was suing the US Government (State Dept) for a habeaus corpus court documents show that he is not being held by the U.S. government and voluntarily chooses to stay in Pulicharki there is no reason. In my opinion it appears that Idema is trying to prevent being deported by the Afghan government to U.S. jurisdiction since he is directly resisting efforts of the consulate to assist in his repatriation. Idema wants to fly to New Delhi where his Tajik supporter Karim Khallili is ambassador. It has also been determined by the U.S. consulate that Idema is not destitute and has ample funds. Meanwhile Idema seems to inventing a story that he is being held against his will when in fact court papers show he is resisting deportation. So once again its important to focus on facts and remove any unfounded or false statements generated by Idema or his associates. Some of whom have been editing his bio. Thankfully it has been corrected. And I would like to apologize to "alcarillo" who I had previously critiqued for his reversions. I think we both see eye to eye on what constitutes useful additions and he also has a better understanding of certain disinformation techniques used on Wikipedia on this particular topic.

RYP

So you're saying he's in jail because he won't leave? What a nut. 66.104.8.66 20:06, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article too long

This guy is a pretty unimportant person to have such a long and detailed article. Most of which is unsourced and frankly not well written. I think this should be hammered down to one or two paragraphs. protohiro 01:02, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't agree. It's not too badly-written and it's interesting, even if he *isn't* very important. 146.115.45.103 01:17, 1 October 2006 (UTC)L.

Idema's imprisonment alone is worth examining Here we have an American citizen operating apparently solo in a war zone, who managed to provoke the ire of the U.S. military. As for the stuff about his background, it certainly adds color to his persona. Still, this article suffers from a lack of verifiable sources. Alcarillo 17:25, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm suprised at how little media interest there is on Idema. I learned about him from a small excerpt in Newsweek. This article may help to fill this lack of information.Xpanzion 03:20, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article Expansion

After reviewing lots of articles about Idema it seems like information is very scattered. A typical web surfer would probablbly either see just one side of the story, or would get frustrated with the difficulty of finding information ang give up. I think this is a great place to sum up this intriguing biographical information.

I'd like to see the following aspects covered at least:

List of videos from Idema commonly seen on TV
Compilation of any other material that was widely distributed after Idema handed it to the Media
More information on his associates including his attorney
Lots of other stuff

Xpanzion 04:09, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Idema's military record

Could someone clarify or expand on this section? The terms use jargon which need to be explained, such as:

Idema was repeatedly recycled just to get through training group and failed 05B training twice and was then recycled into 11B training.

What does this mean? Was he, or was he not a Green Beret? According to Robert Young Pelton's book Licenced to Kill, Idema was honorably discharged in February 1978. In light of the controversy surrounding Idema, the article needs to have sources confirming his military record. Alcarillo 16:08, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

05b training is special forces radio training. 11b training is for the MOS(Military Operations Specialty) of an infantryman. Many sources say that Idema was in special forces radio communications including Cao's blog. The word

recycled

probably subjests that Idema was sent back to more elementary training before retaking the special forces class for the third time. The only place I can find with the information about Idema failing this training is on the Stupor Patriots site

[1] The information is posted as an email from someone with Cao's blog. If anyone can find a more reliable source please reference it. If not this paragraph should be deleted. Xpanzion 23:37, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the info. I will de-jargon it. Alcarillo 20:18, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Lots of the information in the military service section seems to be from the stupor patriots site. I already removed the part about his father getting Idema back into special forces training, I can't find anything even close anywhere else. A more reputable source should be found for the information on Idema's military career.Xpanzion 23:50, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

I completely agree. The more I've been looking into that site, the more I question it's veracity. I've requested from the site specific, verifiable information, especially regarding court records stemming from the 1994 wire fraud case. However, I've gotten no response, nor has my own research turned anything up. Same holds true for the pro-Idema sites out there as well -- it seems to be a sand-kicking match between two sets of bloggers. Curiously, it seems to revolve somewhat around Joseph A. Cafasso, another guy whose military record has been called into question, and who has been the target of a lot of attacks on pro-Idema sites. Alcarillo 23:57, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Cafasso now has a user ID of his own: Peppetters (talk · contribs).

Regardless, I anticipate a lot of surreptitious editing and/or vandalism to be done on this AND Cafasso's article, especially now that there will be renewed interest in Idema in the light of his impending release. Alcarillo 15:59, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Special Forces

Idema's supporters claim Idema worked in many countries with special forces. Wide Awakes Radio His military record does not include any combat experience(this statement is included in the article), the argument for his international involvement has more to do with unofficial work, some of it outside of the military. Supporters of Idema are not made less credible by pointing to a lack of military records. Lets make sure both sides of this aspect of the story are articulated ; )Xpanzion 02:46, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Neutrality

Looking at the article history, with its vandalism, reverts and other POV issues, it appears to be quite a back-and-forth between Idema and/or his supporters and Idema's critics. Therefore, I think the neutrality of this article has been compromised. At the very least, especially in the section "Unverified claims", the editing conflicts show with statements contradicting themselves. If information is not citied with verifiable sources, or if it violates wikipedia policy on point of view, it will be removed. Alcarillo 17:22, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Removed

Idema claims to have been active within the Army Special Forces during the early years of the civil war in El Salvador as part of Operation Quicksilver and aided in the training the El Salvadoran troops.^{[citation needed]} It was reported that Idema was in El Salvador at the time but that he was in-country as a civilian and not operating with any military unit.^{[citation needed]}

It was the first paragraph in the section of unverified claims. I could not find this information anywhere. The closest thing I found was on Wide Awakeness Radio. It mentioned many countries of Idema's activity, but did not mention operation quicksilver. WAR Xpanzion 18:09, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

The POV issue seems to have worked itself out (or at least the pro/anti-Idema camps have left this article alone for a while). So I removed the NPOV tag... Alcarillo 17:05, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unverified claims

I'm removing this section slowly. There shouldn't be unverified claims presented for a living person, especially if they include negative claims. I have spent lots of time looking for reliable sources to cite, then when I found something that was unfounded I removed it completely. Some of the material was verifiable and I moved it to other sections. There is one positive unverified claim that I can't confirm.

Afghani press reports indicating Idema, and other Special Operation Forces were in Afghanistan in the 1980s and 1990s, during the Soviet Invasion, occupation and subsequent retreat were not found to be in error as far as Idema's participation is concerned. Idema did in fact have to be 'rescued' from the orginial Parlichuke Prison

If anyone can find a reliable source with this information please put the information in the Afghanistan section or military service.Xpanzion 05:21, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removed warlordsofafghanistan site

An anonymous user added this external link to the article, which I removed because it is a commercial site promoting the site author and/or a specific product: Warlords of Afghanistan: Jonathan Keith Idema. (see the relevant Wikipedia policy on external links to avoid) Alcarillo 16:19, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Idema was in fact at Saderat and was taken from there after about three months of torture to Pulacharke by the Northern Alliance, who are now treating him as a POW in accordance with the Geneva Conventions. Idema's Pulacharke ID card does not show him as a 'torturer' but rather as a 'political prisoner'. ^{Edit was made by anon User:71.201.58.196}

What does this have to do with the warlordsofafghanistan.com site being removed? Alcarillo 20:08, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Source of Funding

How did Idema pay for equipment, housing, and workers? At least one source said he payed the cameraman. Did he pay Bennett as well? He sold some material to news companies, but what money did he use before he began to sell material? I'm not sure if a definitive answer can be found, if not a list of theories would be useful. Xpanzion 22:02, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

That is interesting. From what I've read, Idema would often sell his "expert analysis" to correspondents in Afghanistan, usually for a few hundred dollars. There was one incident I believe recounted in Pelton's book when one reporter basically refused to pay Idema anything and Idema went off. So much so that the reporter feared for his life.

As for other sources, maybe he solicited donations from his supporters. And if he was truly a con artist, he could have used those skills to acquire cash. Alcarillo 17:10, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Update: I found an article here that may provide some info. Haven't thoroughly read it yet, but this part really got my attention:

"The investigation by ICE, the FBI, DEA, and IRS revealed that Alocozy’s business had been utilized by Jack Idema, the former Green Beret-turned bounty hunter who is currently imprisoned in Afghanistan for allegedly torturing Afghan civilians. During the investigation, Alocozy provided ICE investigators with copies of business ledgers indicating that Idema used Alocozy’s business to send funds from the U.S. to Afghanistan, presumably in support of his quest to capture Osama bin Laden and collect the $50 million reward.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Alcarillo (talk • contribs) 19:32, 10 January 2007 (UTC).

Thanks for the info. I see another website related to Alocozy here. Xpanzion 00:57, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Another source of funding (and this seems the most verifiable) was the lawsuit Idema won against former business partners. I believe it was a $1.8 million judgement, of which he was entitled to $650,000. See the abstract of the second article from the Fayetteville Observer. [2] Alcarillo 00:01, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Counter Terrorist Group US

Solid information about this group would improve the article greatly. Idema seems to have gained credibility through his relationship with this organization, also he may have recieved funding. The article currently states that Idema founded this group; however a google search for "counterr group" reveals sites that don't consistently state that Idema owns, or founded this company. I cannot find a stock listing for this company. The company website contains pictures of Idema, so there must be some relationship with Idema.

It makes me wonder if the company actually is owned or was founded by Idema. If not, what has Idema done for the company? Does the company actually do anything? What customers, if any, has this company advised? Who else works for them, and who fronted the money for its formation? If the website is truthful about the scale of the companies operations, which supposedly include a helicopter shooting range, then it must have been expensive to construct the training facilities.Xpanzion 19:49, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

According to a Soldier of Fortune article published in 2004, after his arrest, Idema is mentioned as the owner.[3] I presume that's still the case. However nothing comes up with the North Carolina Secretary of State's office under that name (interestingly, Idema Combat Systems still does)[4]. But it is still registered in New York State -- and listed as "inactive".[5] However, it still seems to be a vehicle used to promote Idema's Afghan adventures. Alcarillo 23:52, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

This portion of the article seems somewhat misleading to me. It makes it sound like this entity existed only in someone's imagination or only on the web. This is far from the case. I personally met and knew Kieth in the 80's, and attended training seminars at the Counterrgroup facillities in Red Hook NY, just north of Poughkeepsie. The facilities abutted an airstrip and FBO owned by his family. Training facilities included: Conventional pistol and rifle ranges, urban assault and "jungle" assault ranges, rapelling tower, sniper ranges, and a commercial aircraft fuselage used for close quarters combat training. I still have some documentation from the seminars and other Counterrgroup literature from that time. Kieth was clearly the founder, director, and primary training instructor in all ventures, and had a trained paramedic on staff (also combat trained) as well as an assistant trainer during my time there. While I can not reference specific contracts carried out at this facility or the agencies involved, it was a going concern as the property owners in the area often complined publicly about the sound of gunfire at all hours of the day and night. The article should be revised somehow, while the documentation of ownership in the public record may be sketchy, there is no question that Kieth "owned" it, founded it, managed it, and it did what it advertised.199.224.75.86 (talk) 06:08, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

That may be the case, but the point being made (and supported) in the article is that Counterr was registered in New York in 1983 and is now "inactive", and that there is very little to go on as to what it did aside from anecdotes and hearsay. If you wish that the more be included about Counterr's activities during that time, by all means include them -- but note that that information must be verifiable. If you look at the entry on Counterr at the New York Department of State's page, an agent is listed. Perhaps you or someone else could contact this person and request that information and supporting documentation be supplied here. Alcarillo (talk) 19:59, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Fayetteville Observer

I was able to find several articles pertaining to Idema published in The Fayetteville Observer[6] Some of them are archived and as such, not freely available. However, searching for "Idema" in the archives will yield the name of the article, the date of publication, the author, as well as some lead-in information. For the purposes of article references, where I could not get a URL for the article I included the article's ID number, which also shows up in the search results. Alcarillo 17:31, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recent AP story

That recent AP story is looking dubious, now that Idema's site Superpatrios.us claims he refuses to leave Afghanistan without the dog. Pleasantville 14:37, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Not necessarily. The AP wire story said that Idema was only scheduled to be released, not that it had already happened. I can imagine that the wheels of bureaucracy in Afghanistan move very slowly. Alcarillo 15:05, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Idema Editing

I have been noticing that people here have been overlooking the facts and adding unwarranted equivication about his criminal, arrest and military history.

Idema is not an American independent security contractor

He still is serving his sentence in PuliCharki

He didn't "allegedly" run a prison he is in prison for kidnapping and torturing afghan citizens.

I could go on but this entry simply gets too much fact deletion and fantasy addition.

Idema entered for National Geographic to do a documentary on Ed Artis, returned with tickets purchased by ABC news to do a reality show and anything he says about anything he was doing has to be weighed against the facts represented by his agent selling footage rights, his litigation threats and lost suits against media organizations. Covert operators don't do reality shows and hawk the film rights to TV. Also I noticed that much usable information has been deleted from this profile which shows that Idema's crew is busy trying to rewrite history and suppress information.

ConTerr (the emphasis on "Con") is the business vehicle Idema has used to pretend that he has some official function related to terrorism (not related to his terrorizing of afghans and us citizens via his and Lynn Thomas's website. His business cards and logo are deliberately used to mislead people into thinking he is affiliated with federal, state or local law enforcement.

Idema has about 6 known supporters: his father, his lawyer, Lynn Thomas, Thomas Bumback, Jim Morris, Ted Kavanaugh and of course himself. If you want to take their word over the U.S government, the large number of published and fact checked articles and pretend their is some conspiracy, you do Wikipedia and he truth a disservice. He publishes modified press articles on his site, issues false statements, threatens women, children, afghans and now even Karzai. Don't fall into be a hatemonger or stooge for a con man.

You can find a chapter on him in my book and a simple google will lead you to a number of accurate articles.

Hm, where to begin... First of all, please sign your posts using four tildes. Thanks. Also, if you are implying that "Idema's crew" is somehow behind the ongoing edits then you could do a little research yourself and see that this page isn't exactly warmly received by that particular group.

Secondly, there has been a minor problem with finding verifiable sources, aside from general reportage about Idema's arrest, trial and sentencing. Great pains have been done -- not just by me, but by other editors -- to try to ensure that the information here is adequately sourced and verifiable. That precludes whatever is circulating around the blogosphere, pro- or anti-Idema. The term 'independent security contractor' is about as verifiably real to the truth as one can get, with the exception of 'mercenary'. Then again, for the purposes of this article, there has to be some proof. Idema claims he's a government-sponsored cover operator. The government says he's not. What does that make him? 'Liar' isn't exactly an objective term...

Lastly, you refer to other 'accurate articles' as if none of us have taken the time to search for such sources and incorporate them into the text. Some, like myself, may be limited almost exclusively to Internet searches -- and I'm sure you're well aware of the shortcomings of that medium in terms of accuracy. Moreover, many news outlets do not offer free access to story archives. That limits most news searches to a few months, at best. Therefore, I invite you to actively participate in this article by either incorporating those articles yourself, or referring them to myself or someone else like User:Xpanzion who have worked extensively on this article, and who would be glad to help improve it instead of complaining about its quality. Alcarillo 17:26, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Postscript: I suggest taking a look at the article's reference list first to make sure we haven't already covered those sources, including Licenced to Kill. Alcarillo 18:39, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Is this addition supported by the citation it is inserted in front of?

See http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jonathan_Idema&curid=880676&diff=154197414&oldid=153094374 --Pleasantville 18:01, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

	Jonathan Idema is part of the WikiProject Afghanistan, a project to maintain and expand Afghanistan-related subjects on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
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