Talk:Jonah

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This entry incorporates text from the public domain Easton's Bible Dictionary, originally published in 1897.


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[edit] The {} sign/s

The sign/s: {{NPOV}}{{expansion}}{{Cleanup}} placed on this page without any discussion, explanation or reasoning have been removed pending further discussion. (The category Category:Bible stories is now up for a vote for deletion at Wikipedia:Categories for deletion#Category:Bible stories) Thank you. IZAK 08:02, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)


[edit] The Story of Jonah time shifting

Any thought on changing the first paragraph to the PAST tense? Since, after all, this is all several millennia past?! Grumpily yours, Mashford 17:27, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Is it maybe narrative tense? Not sure what the standards are for this...

--Tmargheim 02:05, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jonah and Jason

On the recent unsigned but very comprehensive additions:

  1. Thank you for taking the time to write so much and in such detail, but I feel some changes are in order.
  2. This article is now more about Jason than it is about Jonah. I don't know what Wikipedia policy is about "balance." I suppose articles must pass through unbalanced states on the road to balance, but this seems a rather extreme case. Think about how a school-kid with no knowledge of Jonah would be mislead by this.
  3. I don't consider myself an expert in this, but I know enough (eg., I did three years of graduate school in Greek and, among other things, TAed Greek mythology courses) to know this is not a wide-spread notion. Academic references are in order.

At a minimum, can we (1) put this under a subhead, (2) make it clearer that this is a speculative theory and (3) add references? Lectiodifficilior 16:18, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Oh, and sign-in or sign up. I'm sure we'd all like to "meet" you. Lectiodifficilior 16:18, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

In fact, if references can't be found, I'm afraid it will have to be removed as original research. Jayjg (talk) 16:20, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
As mentioned on Jayjg's talk page, the idea is not new. But it isn't widely shared either, and since the article is online, I don't really see the point of going into such depth. Any last thoughts/defence before I cut it down to a paragraph? Lectiodifficilior 09:37, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
No objections from me. Jayjg (talk) 17:35, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] 2 OT figures?

Nelson's Pocket Reference Bible Dictionary says of Noah: The name of 2 persons in the OT, one of whom is the central figure in the Book of Jonah. Who, I wonder, is the other? Andrewa 10:41, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Assuming you meant "Jonah" instead of "Noah," Nelson is probably treating the two references to Jonah ben-Amittai as different people. This is a common critical view as the reign of Jeroboam would have placed Jonah heading to Nineveh at the wrong time for it to be the capital of Assyria.

As a side note, Jonah also shows up as a name in the NT as the father of Simon Peter, though according to the New Bible Dictionary, the better reading is "John."

--Tmargheim 05:24, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Buddist perspective?

Is this really relavent? I mean it doesn't really have anything to do with Jonah perse, it has much more to do with Buddhist beliefs than anything.

and for that matter why's this "Jonah and Cassondra" thing here? In my opinion it doesn't add to the article at all. (Cabin Tom 02:54, 18 January 2006 (UTC))

at least quote the source and read the book of Jonah. It is actually God who caused the plant to whither (not Jonah) and it was to illustrate the destruction of 120,000 small children vs. a tiny plant. What is more important? Jonah thought the plant was more important, but God is luckily a God of mercy
I removed the section Blubberbrein2 02:13, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] External Links update

I have added the link to the Catholic Encyclopedia account of Jonah, a second link to the Prophet Jonah at JewishEncyclopedia, and updated the BibleGateway link to include the entire book instead of the first chapter.

Is there room to consider why God was so adamant that Jonah should go to Nineveh and preach repentance. What was the place this repentance of Nineveh played in the overall plan of Salvation of Yaweh?

[edit] The "fish"

No explanation/theory about the great fish? Surely, there ought to be some reference to the fact that this it is in all probability a symbol, not a fact - this article certainly doesn't give that impression! It reinforces what Campbell Morgan says: "Men have been looking so long at the great fish that they have failed to see the Great God of Jonah" see [1] Peter Shearan 13:10, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Well I see three possibilities here:

1. The fish was just made up as a story element

2. The fish is a symbol for something

3. Jonah was indeed swallowed by a fish and God did some kind of miracle to stop him from being sliced by the animals teeths, dissolved by its digestive tract, crushed by the depths of the sea and suffocated by the lack of oxygen.

The three possibilities are:
1 - A big fish or whale (of unspecified species) did indeed eat Johah
2 - A "special creation" (not any fish we know of) of God accomplished the act
3 - There was not a fish: the story is an allegory, the fish is a linguistic device in the story, the story is a vision or dream, etc
The article should reflect these options. Rlsheehan (talk) 13:14, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Jonah in Islam

I created a new short section about Jonah in Islam, because the article categorizes him as an Islamic prophet, known as Yunus, but there was no information about this subject.I am definitely not an expert on this subject, however, so it should probably be reviewed and expanded. Academic Challenger 02:56, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sign of Jonah

Just like there is a mention of Jonah in Islam, do you think we should make a Christian reference to the Sing of Jonah, which according to Jesus, was a prophesy of his own resurrection. It seems that it might be significant. -User:Mike Bags

[edit] Disambig Page

Shouldn't Jonah be a disambiguation page? Other people, such as Jonah Lomu are often referred to as just Jonah.--HamedogTalk|@ 11:41, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

There has been a Jonah (disambiguation) page for quite a while. If you mean you think that the main Jonah page should be the disambig page, the biblical prophet is the main meaning of "Jonah" (alone) by far. --Tysto 14:44, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Islam prophets?

I have nothing against Islam, I even like that prophets from Qu' Ran have their own wiki. But, Jonah is a prophet of all three abrhamistic religions (Judaism, Christianism and Islam), but throught I don't really know the importance on Jonah for the Qu' Ran, I study Jewish literature, and is one of the main books of the Talmud, thought I will suggest also putting it in "Talmud books" AND in the Islam prophets conjunciton (And something for cristians?).

[edit] Jonah's Death and Ressurection

The book of Jonah,along with the Gospels of the New Testament imply that Jonah did not actually survive being swallowed by the great fish (or whale, if you insist). In 2:2, Jonah claims to have been crying "from the belly of hell" or in some versions, the belly of sheol. It also uses a lot of imagery concerning landscapes, which would not be visible from such a particular vantage point. In the Christian Gospel, Christ makes at least two notable allusions to the possible death of Jonah. "Just as Jonah was three days in the belly of the fish, so shall the Son of Man be three days in the belly of the earth." (verse needed) "For them there shall be no sign but that of the sign of Jonah" (verse also needed) The latter of the two quotes was in regards to Christ's own ressurection when the priests were asking him to prove to be whom they accused him of claiming to be. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.146.22.19 (talk) 11:02, 18 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Sailor swallowed by whale?

I removed the following from the article moments ago:

"In the late 1920s a seaman was swallowed by a large sperm whale in the vicinity of the Falkland Islands. After three days he was recovered unconscious but alive, though he had some damage to his skin [from the digestive acid]". (Harrison, R.K. , Introduction to the Old Testament (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans 1969), p. 907.)

Firstly, although that statement appears referenced, the "reference" demonstrates only that someone else has told the same story. Professor Davis of Messiah College in Grantham, PA, has concluded an impressive effort to track down Harrison's story. Davis's article shows that the story has been revived numerous times, variously being reported from the late 1800s to the early 1900s. The article makes excellent reading and inspired a cogent letter in response by Dr Bergman of NWT College in Ohio. Davis's effort, I'd suggest, shows conclusively that the story repeated by Harrison is based on an incredibly thin fabric and, to include it in the article as though it were referenced fact does a disservice to this encyclopaedia's readers. Dave 15:32, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I wrote about this story at the sperm whale discussion page. The alleged sailor's name was James Bartley, and the ship was "The Star of the East". Examinations of the story show that was there really was a ship with this name, however, there is No credible record of anyone named James Bartley sailing on her. The story is probably a hoax. Reference [2]204.80.61.10 20:40, 26 January 2007 (UTC)Bennett Turk

[edit] Addition by 147.91.75.2 on 2007.02.16

Earlier today, an anonymous editor from the IP 147.91.75.2 added the following:

"However, there are some other possibilities. If one rejects or neglects the evolutionist chronology, possible candidates for the sea monster that swallowed Jonah whole could be found among the Pliosaurids, or even Mossasaurids. But one element, persistently shown in the depictions of engulfing and vomiting the prophet on the walls of Roman catacombs or on many of early Christian sarcophagi (mainly from the 3rd century), are the ears. Reptiles have (or ever had) none, so the best solution is, in fact, a whale, but an extinct one - Basilosaurus isis. This 20m (or more) long creature, whith slender body and proportionaly small head (but well capable of swallowing a human in a single bite) lived in the same area, although in much earlier time, if one accepts the evolutionist chronology. Moreover, Jonah embarked the ship at Tarshish, the very same spot on which Perseus slew the sea monster which attempted to grab Andromeda. On the earlier, pre-christian, pagan depictions of this myth, the creature is shown in the exactly same way: long-bodied, paddled, whith relativly small, elongated head and ears. And the existance of the ears on early whales is still in debate. 147.91.75.2 10:06, 16 February 2007 (UTC)"

One thing I fail to understand about this reasoning is this. If someone is prepared to "reject or neglect" science, why does he need to hypothesise any specific creature from the fossil record? Why could it not be that god, or whoever was involved, just conjured something up on the spot? Maybe the "great fish" was just whatever popped into the supreme being's head at that instant instead of it having been a whale or a Mossasaurid or a Basilosaurus or anything? What kills me is that this editor appears to have no faith in the scientific age of the world but (s)he hangs everything on creatures from the very same fossil record that (s)he denies. It just doesn't add up to me. I'd like to revert it because I think it's idle speculation that adds nothing to the article but, on the other hand, I understand that reverting it may offend someone's sensibilities. To me, though, putting a bunch of stuff into an encyclopedia about what might have happened if one ignores science, well... Dave 02:47, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I have issues with this entry as well. For one thing, its claim that reptiles have never had ears is just ridiculous. The paragraph is full of spelling and grammatical errors as well, but the larger issue is that it's an unscientific theory with no sources, so therefore it doesn't meet the encyclopedic standard. Removing it. O0drogue0o 02:06, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Someone really should talk to 147.91.75.2, at the very least to get them to stop signing their name in article space--70.107.112.158 02:51, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fish Swallowing

Removed the previous (and unsourced) claims regarding the ability of various aquatic life to "accommodate an adult human," and replaced it with sourced material. Not trying to nitpick, but the original text seemed a little too speculative to stand sans reliable sources.

Out of curiosity, should each quote from the essay be attributed? Although they come from several different sources, the all appear in the same work. The author basically contacted various biologists and reported their observations verbatim. I wasn't sure if I should include them to provide support, or omit them to keep the article from getting too cluttered. Not sure of the conventions here.

Just to clarify- I have no problem with some mention of Peter's points- Its just that, as it stood, the paragraph basically implied the existence of an explanation in agreement with known biology. Which seems very unlikely at best, and was completely unsupported as it stood. ~~ Karma Konstable

The three possibilities are:
1 - A big fish or whale (of unspecified species) did indeed eat Johah
2 - A "special creation" (not any fish we know of) of God accomplished the act
3 - There was not a fish: the story is an allegory, the fish is a linguistic device in the story, the story is a vision or dream, etc
The article should reflect these options. Rlsheehan (talk) 13:14, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Further edits to fish article

Before making further edits, I would like put the issues before the users:

1) The paragraph claiming that the feat is possible is entirely unsourced, an seems to be in violation Wikipedia:Verifiability, and Wikipedia:No original research, as well as Wikipedia: POV.

Additionally, including the giant grouper, a fish wich only reaches 9 feet in length, as possibly being able to swallow a man whole, is highly speculative at best and a flight of fancy at worst, absent some sourcing for the claim. As is the reference to an unnamed, unsourced varity of "large whale shark specimen, which could be found in the Mediterranean."

At the very least language should be included to clarify that this is mearly an unsubstianciated opinion, at least untill some credible source for these claims can be made. I am editing this paragraph to reflect these problems, and removing the references to Giant Groupers and the unnamed species of whale shark- however I will leave in whale sharks as a generic claim.

2) The citation I provided was _not_ from an "atheist website". It was from a collection of essays published in 1945 (clearly before the advent of atheist websites), that happens to be _reprinted_ on an atheist website. Additionally, the quotes I provided are those of relevant authorities, rather than those of the author himself.

I'll add in the names and credentials of the quoted experts in order to clarify this, and clean up the reference in order to clarify that it is a posting of a previously published work verbatim. I realize it makes paragraph a bit cluttered, but it seems necessary to counter the unsubstantiated "according to an atheist website" non-sequitor.

I'm willing to discuss this, but it seems pretty clear to me that the sourced, previously published opinions of experts trumps unsourced speculation, even given the constraints of POV. Am I wrong?


Edited to add, I'm the one making these changes ~~ Karma Konstable

[edit] Other records of men swallowed by whales or fish

This is excerpted from another webpage [3] I just now found, but it is quoting the Princeton Review of 1927:

There are, however, several documented accounts of people who have been swallowed by whales and large fish, and have lived to tell about it, even after several days. One species of fish, the "Sea Dog" (Carcharodon carcharias), is found in all warm seas, and can reach a length of 40 feet. In the year 1758, a sailor fell overboard from a boat in the Mediterranean and was swallowed by a sea dog. The captain of the vessel ordered a cannon on the deck to be fired at the fish, which vomited up the sailor alive and unharmed after it was struck.1
Sperm whales can swallow lumps of food eight feet in diameter. Entire skeletons of sharks up to sixteen feet in length have been found in them. In February of 1891, James Bartley, a sailor aboard the whaling ship "Star of the East," was swallowed by a whale in the vicinity of the Falkland Islands. He was within the whale for more than forty-eight hours, and after he was found inside the whale, which had been harpooned and brought aboard the whaling ship, it took him two weeks to recover from the ordeal. Sir Francis Fox wrote as follows about this:
Bartley affirms that he would probably have lived inside his house of flesh until he starved, for he lost his senses through fright and not from lack of air. He remembers the sensation of being thrown out of the boat into the sea. . . . He was then encompassed by a great darkness and he felt he was slipping along a smooth passage of some sort that seemed to move and carry him forward. The sensation lasted but a short time and then he realized he had more room. He felt about him and his hands came in contact with a yielding slimy substance that seemed to shrink from his touch. It finally dawned upon him that he had been swallowed by the whale . . . he could easily breathe; but the heat was terrible. It was not of a scorching, stifling nature, but it seemed to open the pores of his skin and draw out his vitality. . . . His skin where it was exposed to the action of the gastric juice . . . face, neck and hands were bleached to a deadly whiteness and took on the appearance of parchment . . . (and) never recovered its natural appearance . . . (though otherwise) his health did not seem affected by his terrible experience.2
Another individual, Marshall Jenkins, was swallowed by a Sperm Whale in the South Seas. The Boston Post Boy, October 14, 1771, reported that an Edgartown (U.S.A.) whaling vessel struck a whale, and that after the whale had bitten one of the boats in two, it took Jenkins in its mouth and went under the water with him. After returning to the surface, the whale vomited him on to the wreckage of the broken boat, "much bruised but not seriously injured."3

1 Ambrose John Wilson, "The Sign of the Prophet Jonah and Its Modern Confirmations," The Princeton Theological Review 25 (1927): 638. footnote 20.

2 Quoted in Ibid., p. 636.

3 Ibid., pp. 636-637.

Til Eulenspiegel 22:04, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Now I'm finding opther sites that make it pretty clear that the Bartley story has been debunked as a yarn, possibly why Falwell did not mention that one alongside the 1771 and 1758 incidents... See [www.reasons.org/resources/apologetics/jonah.shtml]. Even so, it seem pretty well substantiated that larger animals than humans have been found alive in whale bellies... Til Eulenspiegel 22:19, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
The Bartley story was discussed a bit earlier, but the rest seems reasonable- I'm going to change "It has been speculated" to read "There is some anecdotal evidence to suggest" as this seems to be a better characterization of the examples given, and append a "However" to my paragraph in order to reflect the conflict between the two. It might also be an idea to replace the whale shark with the Dog Fish, since I cant find any immediate sources that refute this claim. ~~ Karma Konstable
Sounds fair enough... BTW, I have just found here one of the most comprehensive discussions about the feasibility of the story here, [4] Note this says "I am getting conflicting science opinions on whether or not a man could survive in a sperm whale in terms of oxygen availibility and the acidity of the digestive system." Til Eulenspiegel 22:40, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jonah and Yom Kippur

In Orthodox Jewish tradition (and possibly other streams of Judaism) the book of Jonah is read every year on Yom Kippur. I think there should be some cross referencing from this article. This would also allow for a discussion of Jonah and repentance, spiritual rebirth, and perhaps could include the midrash that continues the story after the end of the book (the book concludes with 'many animals', but does not include Jonah's response to God - if there was any response. Commontater 09:02, 28 August 2007 (UTC)


[edit] A question at daisies' level ( i.e. a very modest and naive question)

Can some of you learned gentlemen explain me why " jonah" is for you anglo-saxons synonymous to "jinx" , a meaning it does not have at all in France . For us , " jonah" means nothing , and if it evoked something ,it would rather mean " a lucky person" , knowing what Jonah harmlessly escaped ...Or must we consider him from the Phenician point of view , like " a nuisance you throw overboard ,and who comes back anyway ..."?. The french expression " porte-poisse" ( which can be translated : "pitch-bearer") would then be more accurate , and keep vivid the old wood-n'tar-navy touch . Thanks for yours explanations ... Arapaima , 08Dec2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.164.90.8 (talk) 10:59, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Because the sailors found that he was a jinx, and from their point of view, they were right - he was bringing down disaster on them and their ship. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:30, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Campbell Reference

Can someone be a bit more specific on the Campbell quote from The Hero with a Thousand Faces? I have now been through the book twice (even though I have a different ISBN for my Princeton version) specifically looking for this connection Campbell supposedly made and I can find nothing that puts Gilgamesh together with Jonah. I could make a good case for it with descent/ascent stories, but not with the worm/serpent issue (which really doesn't follow anyway). If I'm missing it, I'd like to know. If it's not there, then I see no reason to say it does. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.244.62.36 (talk) 22:52, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Humor(?)

Does someone know about this link, which talks about the humor/irony present in the story? I'm unsure about how/if to include its information. —ScouterSig 18:06, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Any dates?

This is one of the few biblical figures in which no dates are mentioned! what time did it happen? (After Jesus, Before Jesus, After Moses, ...etc) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.201.252.188 (talk) 23:09, 5 June 2008 (UTC)