Talk:Johnny Cash

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[edit] Fair Use for Song Samples

The fair use rationale for the samples from "I Walk the Line" and "Cocaine Blues" claims that "The sample is being used for commentary on the music recording in question." This is not true, as this is an article about Johnny Cash and not about the songs in question, and actually contains little or no such commentary. I am removing the sample links for this reason. -Stellmach 20:27, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 125,127-82,000

On the subject of the forest fire, it says: " The federal government sued him and was awarded $125,127. Johnny eventually settled the case and paid $82,000." Which is it?Richbank 00:31, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

This is not a contradiction. A "settlement" in this context is a negotiated agreement to forego further legal action, and often involves payment of less than the full amount contested. -Stellmach 14:52, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Beer

This website claims that also Cash released "A Pub with No Beer". http://www.poparchives.com.au/feature.php?id=545 It says: "The song was suggested to to Tom T. Hall by Johnny Cash who apparently performed the song himself." Is this a studio recording or a live performance? Peeper 09:57, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure Cash never released "A Pub with No Beer" on any of his studio albums and don't recall him performing it live either. If he did, it definitely wasn't released on a live album. Cromag 20:32, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] On camera

Did he win an MTV VMA? Or just nominated? What year? (I understand he was the oldest ever to do it.) Trekphiler 04:54, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Well the video for "Hurt" won best cinematography in 2003 but i'm not for certain that award went to cash i believe it went to his director. --67.134.108.9 (talk) 07:04, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Rock and roll

I was hesitant about addressing this matter, but I figured my status as a Johnny Cash fan (or at least I consider myself to be one) supports my view that Cash was not only far from a pioneer of rock and roll; he simply never was a rock and roll artist. I've noticed that several sections (and the infobox) in this article state otherwise. Personally, I think that recording songs in the same legendary studio as some of the future rock and roll stars whose career began in the 1950s just isn't enough to consider someone an important figure in the evolution of the genre. One important argument in favor of considering Cash a rock and roll artist is indeed his induction into the genre's hall of fame in 1992, but I can't think of any more, aside from literally a handful of rock and roll songs he recorded (and one of those was a demo). Not sure about the blues category either. In general, I think there's a tendency to give Cash more credit than he deserves (not to disrespect him, of course; I appreciate his important contributions to country and folk music) due to his latter-day American series releases. Cromag 20:29, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

I'd appreciate it if anyone would be willing to comment on this, 'cause I myself am in favor of cutting back on the rock and roll references. Cromag 18:20, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
The "recording songs in the same legendary studio" bit seems to me like a straw man argument, and not a very productive way to approach the discussion. In any case, if you doubt any particular claim in the article, you are well-advised to call for a citation to back it up, or produce some contrary citation yourself. Failing that we're stuck in the realm of individual opinion about what constitutes "rock and roll," which seems to be a contentious issue. -Stellmach 21:52, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
I won't deny that the term itself is controverial and not very well-defined, but Wikipedia itself provides or mentions a number of guidelines as to what constitutes a rock and roll record, specifically the early variety, which, I'm guessing, is what the article refers to. Elements of early rock and roll that are conspicuously lacking in Cash's musical output include the use of a drum kit (W. S. Holland started touring with Cash in 1960, when Cash was making music that was already quite comfortably outside the boundaries of rock and roll) and piano, which appears very rarely in Cash songs (and almost none of those are even close to the genre in question). No saxophone around, either. Generally, Cash might be considered rockabilly, but rock and roll is saying too much; I'd opt for trading one for the other. Also, as I mentioned before, I respect the decision to induct Cash into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, but I myself would be happy to accept other forms of proof, including the titles of tracks which could perhaps be considered typical of the rock and roll genre. Having heard most of Cash's output, I can pretty much safely conclude that "Get Rhythm" is one of the very few songs exhibiting clear rock and roll influences. Can anyone name other tracks, aside from standard like "I Walk the Line"?
I'm planning to take a long WikiBreak in the near future and won't be able to work on the article, but I just wanted to mention that it looks rather poor the way it is now. The blues references are back, the piano has been added as an instrument (which, to me, is suspicious to say the least), superfluous record label pairings have been tossed into the infobox, "That Old Wheel" has been added as a signature song. The biographical info is extensive (perhaps overly so, in fact), but does its job quite well. Nevertheless, the article is clearly susceptible to edits that are not entirely well-informed. I hope that at least the issue at hand can be resolved effectively. Cromag talk to me 18:38, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
Your link about "guidelines" merely goes to the article about rock and roll, not to any actual Wikipedia guideline. Articles obviously ought to avoid mutual inconsistencies, but that doesn't really elevate any of them to the status of editorial guidance. -Stellmach 20:13, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
You're right, but that in turn is what I deem to be a bit of an unrelated argument. I will admit that the article on rock and roll doesn't go to lengths to provide each statement with a reference, but the same logic can be used on this article; also, I'm quite sure that you won't find Cash listed under "blues" or other such nonsense in any respectable encyclopedia. Unfortunately, I do not have access to any recent English encyclopedic publication, but you're welcome to double-check for the key elements of rock and roll style if you do. Less reputable sources like The Free Encyclopedia stress the importance of "an energetic driving rhythm and heavy insistent beat" and refer to rhythm and blues as the genre's source material, which in Cash's case is possible, yet questionable. Britannica, on the other hand, contains a rather poor article on the genre itself, but mentions some elements which are generally regarded as common in rock music (though the two don't necessarily overlap), partly through a reference to the Canadian government's definition: "[music] characterized by a strong beat, the use of blues forms and the presence of rock instruments such as electric guitar, electric bass, electric organ or electric piano". Conversely, it also highlights the varying interpretations of rock and roll. Regardless of what these references state, it should be said that a lot of what came out of Sun Records in the mid-1950s was and is considered classic due to its simplicity, a trait characteristic of both Cash and other artists he had contact with; however, at least to me, comparing contemporaries like Little Richard, Elvis Presley (although his output is extremely varied) or Jerry Lee Lewis (it is also useful to note that Lewis, for example, has explored a variety of genres, but returned to his rock and roll roots recently with Last Man Standing, while the disputed rock and roll phase in Cash's career was undisputably brief, with almost none of his post-50s records showing any trace of even rockabilly and mainly sticking to pure country-and-western) with Cash leaves no doubt as to who the phrase "rock and roll" can be assigned to. Cromag talk to me 19:20, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nine Inch Nails Cover Song?

Does anyone else notice that it says one of his greatest hits "hurt" is a cover of a nine inch nails song, obviously this is impossible but every time I try to remove it, it gets denied.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Winzlow90 (talk • contribs) 16:54, June 2, 2007 (UTC)

If by "obviously impossible" you mean that it's true, then yes. The song was originally by Nine Inch Nails. See Hurt (song). Also, please sign your comments in the future (with "~~~~"). Adam McMaster 18:06, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
Technically, the song wasn't a big hit (check its top position on the charts). But influential it was. And I agree that your argument's a tad faulty, Winzlow. Cromag 18:11, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
While Cash's "Hurt" is indeed a cover, so are many of the other songs mentioned here, as Cash freely recorded other people's material. We don't mention in the introduction that "Rock Island Line" is a Lead Belly song or that "Ring of Fire" was origianlly recorded by Anita Carter, so what justifies different treatment for "Hurt?" -Stellmach 18:26, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Ledbelly and Carter (and presumably all the others) are fairly mainstream cover choices for a country artist. Covering an industrial metal band is notable and deserves a mention because it shows Cash's versatility and independence as an artist. It's mentioned in virtually all media references to the track for that same reason, so to omit it here would be to reduce the informativeness of the article. Thomjakobsen 15:16, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:JohnnyCashAmericanRecordings.jpg

Image:JohnnyCashAmericanRecordings.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 06:34, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I've added a fair use rationale for the use of the image on American Recordings (album) – I suspect the use of it on this page doesn't qualify as fair use, but I'm not sure. Adam McMaster 10:51, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge proposal

I support the merge of Johnny Cash family into this article. Eliz81(talk)(contribs) 09:39, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

It's hard for me to find any significant material in the article that isn't already here, or under June Carter or Carter Family. If I'm missing something and there's actually something there to merge, then sure. -Stellmach 02:40, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Mr. Cash's career is important enough that he deserves his own entry. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.22.119.219 (talk) 16:29, August 21, 2007 (UTC)
The question isn't whether Johnny Cash is "important enough" for an article. (Come on!) It's whether we need a separate article on his family other than what's in June Carter, Carter Family, Rosanne Cash, etc. I (and Eliz81) suspect we do not. Hult041956 17:11, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
I was very skeptical about this merger at first. But, after looking at the Johnny Cash family article, I have to agree that whatever is of value should be merged into this article, and/or June Carter, Carter Family, or the articles about the specific children. Once that is done, and the all the speculative/unreferenced/OR material is removed, there'll be naught left of the other article. ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 16:24, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Good. Then, I assert we have a consensus. User Stellmach believes there may be nothing worthwhile left in "family". And 129.22 perhaps was confused, believing the proposal was to remove this article. But no one seems to believe we still need the fossil "family" article any longer. (See that talk page for another discussion about this.) I volunteer to take this on. I will post here a specific resolution, paragraph by paragraph, before performing the edits. Seems fair? Hult041956 22:00, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
I agree. ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 23:43, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
I pasted three or four paragraphs from Johnny Cash family into this article, then made one pass at blending that material in. (This merge was way overdue.) I did a little bit of rephrasing and editing, mostly to fix redundancies, bad sequencing, and the like. Except for this, I tried not to change others' intent or meaning. I admit the blending is still rough. Please feel free to improve. Hult041956 21:36, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Man in Black (song)

The article for Man in Black (song) is currently two lines long and has been subject to a speedy-deletion attempt and an unclear-notability tag. I've retagged it as "needs expansion" as I've assumed its notability (this article has it listed in the introduction as a signature track), but it's badly in need of work. Figured this was the best place to bring attention to it. Thomjakobsen 15:23, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Boom-chick-a-boom

In the opening, one finds the following sentence:

Cash was known for ... the boom-chick-a-boom or "freight train" sound of his Tennessee Three backing band....

MD1937 keeps insisting on adding the parenthetical statement "though this became less characteristic of his later work" and I believe that it is irrelevant and unnecessary in the opening. I would like to hear what other people think on this issue. ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 02:46, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Changes in an artist's style are worth mentioning, but certainly not in the article introduction. The introduction needs to say who the person was, why they are notable ... and that's pretty much it. Details are for the body. -Stellmach 16:29, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
That was precisely my thought. Thank you. ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 16:52, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
I've just deleted this comment yet again. MD1937 insists on adding it, though he has never responded to this discussion, as I asked him to do. I really do not understand the importance of that phrase. ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 00:10, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
Well, there he goes again. I've left a note on his talk page in the hopes of getting some kind of response. The way this is being resolved now (i.e. not) is pointless. - -Stellmach 20:51, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
I will be interested in seeing if he responds. ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 23:45, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
I just deleted the information again. And, once again, he has failed to come here and explain his actions. I left another message on his talk page. If he readds the irrelevant information, I will report him to an administrator. ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 16:42, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] House lost in fire

Johnny Cash's "museum" house burnt down in fire very recently—I read somewhere in the news. It's been in possession of some Hollywood celebrity couple. I don't know much or have much interest in it, but someone else might want to research and add the information. I regret every event of destruction.
—6birc, 20:43, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] First marriage/Rosanne Cash

I did some rewording of the paragraph on his first marriage, and decided to bring the following paragraph here for discussion:

Rosanne Cash had a very successful recording career on her own. She and her step-sister Carlene Carter sing on Cash's 1976 album, Junkie and the Juicehead Minus Me. Rosanne has released many albums since the late 70s, many of them are produced by her former husband Rodney Crowell. In 2003, Rodney and Johnny Cash would re-record "Walk the Line" together.

I do not see any reason we need this much detail about the career of Rosanne in an article about Johnny. Almost anyone knows she is his daughter, and her name is linked in the previous paragraph, so people can go read her article if they are interested. No slight to Rosanne, but most of this information is superfluous in the current article. Thoughts? ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 16:18, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree wholeheartedly. By coincidence, only a few minutes ago, I deleted the following paragraph from The Velvet Underground.
The band was name-dropped in the 1982 Fleetwood Mac song “Gypsy” (So I'm back to the Velvet Underground / Back to the floor that I love / To a room with some lace and paper flowers), a reference to songwriter Stevie Nicks returning to her childhood home where she listened to the Velvet Underground as a teenager. Nico was clearly an influence on the very young Nicks, who was just 19 and starting to open for Janis Joplin with Fritz in the Bay Area in 1967 when The Velvet Underground and Nico was released.
Like your example, which is a paragraph about Rosanne and Carlene and not about Johnny, my example is about Stevie Nicks and not about the VU. I'm all for "building the web," but both these examples make the main article somewhat sloppy and border on trivia. Back to your issue: perhaps something like "among Johnny Cash's children, Rosanne Cash and John Carter Cash are notable musicians" would suffice, placed in the "Legacy" section. What do you think of that? Hult041956 18:48, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
I appreciate and understand your example, and I agree with your suggestion. His children who are notable musicians should certainly be mentioned in the article. But, the way that was stuck in the section about his first marriage was just not good. Would you like to make the change you suggested? ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 20:06, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Done. Hult041956 21:56, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] County of birth

Kingsland is in Cleveland County, Arkansas Source; http://www.usgenweb.com 216.41.138.168 (talk) 03:22, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Heritage

I made the decision to move the section that discussed Cash's Scottish heritage down further in the article. I can see no reason that this aspect of his life should come before anything else. Anyone have any thoughts or objections? ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 17:04, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Good decision. This section is about a discovery Cash made late in his life and a correction of a mistaken belief Cash had held about his heritage. That's interesting perhaps, but not essential. Hult041956 (talk) 21:11, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
Thanks. Frankly, I'm not sure how I missed it, given the number of times I've edited the article. It really did not belong at the top. ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 03:08, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] First American to learn Stalin had died

As the Stalin article states this was a Russian transmission. Does this mean: a) Cash spoke/read Russian or b) Cash decoded the message and handed it to a translator (and thus was the second American to learn Stalin had died or c) the message was deliberately sent in English for reception by NATO d) the story is apocryphal

I can't find anything about this message anywhere on the net!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.107.182.109 (talk) 23:16, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Can someone please find a better reference regarding the discovery of Josef Stalin's death? The article from "The Austin Chronicle" does not seem very reliable - it cites no sources for this information, and the name of the author seems dubious.99.250.28.49 (talk) 19:35, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
I would delete this line until (if) a better reference is found. The given citation is not a significant, reliable reference. Tanthalas39 (talk) 23:31, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
I have marked this citation as dubious.129.97.192.204 (talk) 00:16, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
I have removed the "dubious." But, on second thought, I think I am going to remove the information entirely. It can be restored if a real reference is found. The article is none the worse for the loss of this "fact." ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 01:42, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
Even if true, it's trivia. -Stellmach 17:26, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
I doubt its provenance, I doubt it could be proven, and, yes, as you say, it is trivial. The article is none the worse for its removal. ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 02:25, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Cash 1997"

There are several references in the article which are given as "Cash 1997," all of which come from the autobiography, but no page numbers are given. This has to be fixed. ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 16:00, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Can the person who added these references, or someone with a copy of this book, please add page numbers? ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 03:19, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Radio Operator

There is a story he was a radio operator who first heard some transmission from the soviet block. Can someone comment on that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.185.239.106 (talk) 18:29, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Please see this discussion above. ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 18:54, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
Thx 68.12.202.125 (talk) 02:41, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Certainly. ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 04:22, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Songs in the lede

Am I the only one who feels that there are too many songs listed in the lede? Are these all really necessary? ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 03:24, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] American VI?

This claim is made under the "Legacy" section: "American VI, the final release of tracks recorded with Rubin, was released in 2008."

Is there any actual evidence for this?HEY

[edit] Death Date

The date in the article and the date in the table at the top right differ, which one is correct? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Khoopes (talk • contribs) 04:41, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

67.187.199.122 (talk) 09:41, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

They do not differ. They both say 12 September, 2003, which is the correct date. -Stellmach 14:19, 1 May 2008 (UTC)