Talk:Johnny Appleseed

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Good article Johnny Appleseed has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a reassessment.
September 21, 2006 Good article nominee Listed
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I realy like this page because it tells you more about these people that you never known before!! Like Say Jhonny Appleseed You can learn what his real name was where he was born and a bunch of his history!!!
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Contents

[edit] 2008 movie

There's a movie announced for 2008 about Johnny Appleseed in case anyone feels like adding it to the article [1] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Scotty jeffery (talk • contribs) 07:27, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Johnny Appleseed at the Simpsons

Should there be a "Popular"-section, where some references to Johnny Appleseed are mentioned? I'm thinking of the Simpsons episode "Simpsons Tall Tales", where Johnny Appleseed is represented by Lisa as "Conny Appleseed". --82.119.13.109 17:41, 30 May 2007 (UTC)


[edit] npov

this page might need a little less "yeah, verily!" and a bit more npov.

The bulk of the article is copied from an account of Appleseed in an 1862 book (as noted in the article), and reflects the literary style of that period. Feel free to update it. --Blainster 19:58, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Disney History

While I tend to agree with the statement about Disney's lack of integrity with historical representations, it might be misunderstood here. If someone loves Disney, they might think the article is implying that the history in the cartoon is sound. Thepearl 20:03, 6 March 2006 (UTC)thepearl

The Disney sentence has been removed from the introduction. The cartoon is already mentioned in the Pop culture section. --Blainster 06:30, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Died as a child

Not sure how it could be better phrased, but the following line seems like a paradox:

Johnny was sickly as a child, and he died in his sleep.

To me this first read as 'While a child he became ill and then died in his sleep, having never grown up to plant trees'. -- anon. user 16 March 2006

The sentence has been rephrased to remove the ambiguity. --Blainster 06:30, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why is he referred to as Johnny and not as Chapman?

It is the accepted style to refer to a biographical figure by their last name. I don't think that the fact that he is known as Johnny Appleseed changes that. It seems very odd to read an encyclopedia entry where the subject is referred to only by his first name. Anybody else care to chime in here?

You are correct. I fixed it. Pollinator 18:07, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it's odd, but changing it didn't fix it.

Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies)#Subsequent uses of names suggests the use of surnames is preferable to the first name, because "The use of the first name gives the impression that the writer knows the subject personally, which, even if true, is not relevant." However, it gives examples of where something other than the first name is appropriate, and it's easy to find others:

  • In the article on Antonio de Padua María Severino López de Santa Anna y Pérez de Lebrón, for instance, the subject is NEVER referred to by his surname of Lopez, but as "Santa Anna", which is simply the name of the town he comes from. Why? Because it's how he's known.
  • In the article on Mary Ann Evans, the author is referred to repeatedly as only Mary Ann, and as only Marian, but just once only as Evans, her initial surname, and never only as Cross, her other surname.
  • In the article on Roseanne Barr, she never is referred to by only her surname of "Thomas", but she is repeatedly referred to only as Roseanne - because that's what she's known as.
  • The article on Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom refers to her only as Elizabeth, never as "Windsor", her surname.

The article on Mark Twain switches back and forth between Twain and Clemens, for he was almost as well known by one name as his other - but that's not true of Johnny Appleseed. They didn't carve "Chapman" on his original grave marker - they carved "Johnny Appleseed". And nobody called him "Appleseed" or "Mr. Appleseed", any more that people call Meat Loaf Mr. Loaf (with the exception of the New York Times, although they called him Johnny. Using the name Johnny does not give the impression that the writer knows the subject personally, and is entirely appropriate. ClairSamoht 02:38, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I can understand why Johny Appleseed could be an exception to the rule, but I don't think calling him Johnny is the right answer. He may not be commonly known as Chapman, but he's also not commonly known just as Johnny. I'd still advocate for Chapman, but perhaps sticking with the full name Johnny Appleseed could work too.210.86.142.18 05:47, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree; using the full "Johnny Appleseed" shouldn't put anybody's undies in a bundle. ClairSamoht 08:35, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Waverly Root in His Book, "Food," Claimed That Johnny Appleseed's Apple-of-Preference was the "Rambo"

  • According the entry for "Apple," in Waverly Root's "Food," a sort of coffee table volume encyclopedia published in the late 1970s -- and an essential tome for the library of any food-lover-- John Chapman's favored apple to spread was the Rambo. Root further states that in Indiana where (Root claims) Chapman ended his wanderings, the Rambo is (or was at the time "Food" was published) still sold in Indiana markets, but not in many others in the U.S.
  • Also, in 1989, I met a fellow surnamed Chapman in New York City who claimed that Johnny Appleseed as a distant ancestor. He asserted that part of the John Chapman lore was that Johnny Appleseed was the accidental paramour of many a lonely rural female -- and that apple seeds were not the only sort of seed he was renowned for "disseminating" in his travels.The preceding was unsigned but posted by 71.250.176.20 21:57, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
If Root said that, he was wrong. Johnny Appleseed would clear land, plant seeds, and leave the nursery in the hands of a local, who would sell the trees on shares. When you plant seeds, every tree that grows is a new variety of apple. Besides, the Rambo has never been popular in Ohio and Indiana - it's a favorite in the Maryland/Virginia area.
There weren't many lonely women on the frontier at the time; a woman alone couldn't survive because there were too many tasks requiring upper body strength. Johnny Appleseed was never known to have had a girlfriend. Was he homosexual, as Swedenborg was? ClairSamoht 05:06, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
  • To Ms ClairSamoht -- I do not wish to become involved in controversy, nor am I a Jonathan Chapman expert. I did, however, once meet a bona fide lineal descendant of Jonathan Chapman who maintained that it is a traditional bit of lore in his clan that Johnny Appleseed left progeny scattered hither, thither and yon around and about the regions he wandered. But I've also read, as you've noted, that he was shy of women -- this latter account is more in line with nature mystics, who like Chapman, may have been repressed homosexuals (others, not - the vast majority of people no matter what their gender preference, were sexually repressed for most of human history in the West, and throughout the 19th century in particular) and who sublimated their sexuality into their experience of nature. E.g., Francis of Assisi, or Henry David Thoreau, who admitted to being completely flummoxed as to how persons of the feminine gender could interest a man who thinks (young women were often stereotyped as "flibberty gibberts" in Thoreau's day) and who also wrote that Nature was his bride....
  • On the Rambo -- more completely known, as I now see, as the "Summer Rambo" since it ripens around August 25 - only after I wrote those Waverly Root comments I googled [Rambo Johnny Appleseed](no brackets or quotes) and found many pages linking the Rambo variety with Johnny Appleseed, including in one of the first hits mentioning a very old Rambo apple tree in Nova, Ohio from which grafts are still taken and sold as bits of plantable and treasurable Americana. Possibly this is just lore and no more, but it is still relevant information in a Johnny Appleseed discussion.
  • Finally, if you wish, you may google [farmer's daughter jokes] and in the third hit, at evula.com, find instanced a situation that may partly explain -- if only from a tradition of humor of dubious taste -- the claim (now practically impossible to demonstrate except by genetic testing)that Jonathan Chapman sired many so-called "illegitimate" children, as is the tradition among at least some of his descendants. There may not have been many lonely women on the American frontier in the late 18th and early to mid 19th century -- I don't really think that even the most learned historian could state such a thing categorically with any certainty-- but there were certainly many young unmarried ones in dire need of a husband, if only because there may not have been an even numerical match in the vicinity between the number of marriageable males and the number of available nubile unmarried females. The vulgar jest at evula.com, as with so many others, suggests how a wanderer like Chapman with little libidinal interest in women -- or in any human -- might have been deliberately and dishonestly assigned parentage of a child he did not in fact himself sire by one or more desperate pregnant young women who wished to shield their unborn children or what was left of their reputations or that of actual fathers, or all three, from the local "torch and pitchfork crowd" (a regular, episodic ad hoc upwelling of the self-righteous who have ever been true believers in "Tough Love" for the unrighteous throughout American history in so many of our local [and not only rural]communites of God-fearing, church-going, All-Americans). With all good wishes, L.Massano, New Jersey.
The tree in Nova, Ohio was part of an orchard planted in the 1780s.[2] Given that he was born in 1774, he would have been between six and sixteen years old, before he became "Johnny Appleseed".
Johnny was on extremely good terms with the native Americans. When a respected person entered the village, the hospitality afforded him included a bedwarmer. Presumably, the idea was that the traveler would improve the genetic stock of the village's children. Every generation seems to think that they invented sex, but there would be some on the wilderness who would have welcomed a joyous three-way romp. Additionally, life on the frontier was hazard-prone, and some disabled men would have welcomed children through in-vivo germ donation. Unlike most faiths, Swedenborg taught that there was sex in heaven, and that even angels had sex, so I don't think his religious faith would have stopped Johnny from participating in friendly friction. But there are no credible sources stating which way JA swung, so it's not something Wikipedia can address.
There are women with decidedly masculine names, such as Michael Learned, but in general Claire is the feminine form of the name, and Clair indicates a male. Mr. ClairSamoht 02:30, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
just want to mention I much appreciate the way you've 'upgraded' this entry, nice work. Bustter 08:10, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] teetotaler or drinker?

Cecil Adams writes, "He was deeply religious – sometimes insufferably so – but he drank and took snuff and told jokes."

The article calls him a "teetotaler," but no source is offered. Bustter 22:45, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

[3] Not Cecil Adams, but a staff report by C K Dexter Haven. Here's a related forum thread at the Straight Dope Message Board: Wikipedia vs. Dex. Femto 11:15, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Failed GA nomination

I've failed this good article nomination because of inappropriate citations. None of the footnotes provide a page number for book or magazine citations or an access date for online citations, nor are any of the book or magazine citations presented in a standard format. Notes 1 and 12 and notes 8 and 14 appear to be duplicates, which is puzzling because the article also uses multiple references to the same footnote. There also seems to be a very heavy reliance on online sources: why are there no footnotes to most of the volumes listed as further reading? Feel welcome to resubmit after these issues have been addressed. Durova 16:18, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

In response to a query on my talk page, all of the book and magazine citations should have a page number. The Chicago Manual of Style or some other standard reference provides information on how to lay these out. Wikipedia guidelines recommend including access dates with online references (which is easy enough to do - just double check them and add today's date) and a fuller citation than the article name is preferable when possible: author name, publication date (if available), site or publication name as well as article title. It looks as if someone has put a good faith effort into raising this to GA status. Please keep up the good work and renominate when ready. I would have left the above as a recommendation rather than a decision if the nomination hadn't already been up for several weeks. Regards, Durova 21:21, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bill Shurtleff

The writers of this article would do well to read what is widely considered the best (most carefully researched, well documented, and well written) biography of this important American: "Johnny Appleseed: Man and Myth," by Robert Price (Indiana University Press) - instead of relying on so many Internet sources which do not lcearly distinguish between the man and the myth. Bill Shurtleff 2006 Sept. 8

Thank you for your kind comments, sir. I wrote most this article. I read Price's book in the 1960s and in the early 1970s and again in the early 1980s to compare it to Fortriede's 1978 "Johnny Appleseed: The Man Behind the Myth". I found Fortriede's work to be clearly superior.
Professor Price was a professor of English at Otterbein, and the book is well written, but he's a better writer than historian; he tends to fill in the gaps with his imagination. Incidently, his book wasn't published by Indiana University Press but by Peter Smith, in 1954. I'm given to understand Otterbein republished it in 2001. Fortriede is not a historian, either, but a librarian, and like Price, a Johnny Appleseed fan.
As a collaborative work, Wikipedia's standard isn't that everything be true, because it's impossible to determine. Instead, the standard is that everything be verifiable, by reliable sources. Contrary to your assertion, the best sources, in this case, are Harper's and Howe's, both of which were published in the 19th century by authors who talked to people who knew Johnny, not material published in the latter half of the 20th century.
"A man with a watch knows what time it is. A man with two watches is never sure." - Segal's Law. I hope you won't be insulted if I point out that the man who has read one book about Johnny Appleseed knows the facts, and I, having read many, am less sure. ClairSamoht - Help make Wikipedia the most authoritative source of information in the world 00:50, 9 September 2006 (UTC)


[edit] GA Review

I have placed this article on hold for the time being. There is one issue I have (see below about quotes), and I think it's something that someone familiar with the article can easily and quickly fix. I took a look at the comments that the previous reviewer, as well as looking at a few other biographies that have been assigned GA/FA Status. My full comments follow:

1. Is it well written? - Pass

There a just a few (minor) nits here, but nothing major enough to affect GA status. There are a few places where the prose of the article got a little too colloquial. For example "Johnny Appleseed spent the rest of his life as a solo act", and the use of a contraction "It's impossible to produce named-variety apples by planting seeds". For a GA, they're not much of a problem, though if bringing the article to FA is a goal, I think making sure the article maintains an encyclopedic tone is important.

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable? - Needs Improvement

Overall, the article is wonderfully cited. However there are a couple of places where lack the of an inline citation seems significant - his obituary and the letter from John Archer.

In addition, the other two long quotes did not provide a cite directly. I did notice that those cases the cite comes before the quote. I'm guessing that the cite also applies to the quote itself. However, with the placement of the cite I'm not sure. I'm not really comfortable passing the article if without being sure of the source for direct quotes.

3. It is broad in its coverage. - Pass

This really is an excellent article that explains a lot about the subject.

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy. - Pass

The article keeps a good tone, focusing on the facts of his life and keeping the man from folklore separate.

5. It is stable - Pass

Not much non-formatting changes since it was nominated.

6. It contains images - Pass

The images in the article were very appropriate, and helped add depth to the article.

As listed above, the only concern that I have are with the citations for the long, direct quotes. For me, at least, that's significant enough to hold off a little bit. Honestly, other than that, this is one of the better articles I've seen up for GA. --- The Bethling(Talk) 01:55, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

In order to provide "typographic color", and to make it clearer where longer excerpts begin and end, Template:cquote is being utilized. However, Template:cquote doesn't like footnotes to follow; instead of putting the superscripted number where it should be, it drops down quite a ways, and ends up floating in space, at the left margin, where it appears to be meaningless typographic flotsam; without any other type next to it, one cannot even determine that it's a superscript rather than a subscript. The end of an excerpt necessarily is the end of a paragraph, so the only place to put the footnote is on the material that leads into the excerpt.
The alternative would be to put the footnote inside the cquote, but that would indicate to users that the footnote itself was part of the quotation, so that option was ruled out.
Thanks for taking the effort to carefully consider the nomination. I appreciate your work. ClairSamoht - Help make Wikipedia the most authoritative source of information in the world 07:36, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Okay. I've never really used the cquotes before and wasn't aware of that limitation. Everything is fine now :) --- The Bethling(Talk) 07:42, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Appleseed Day

The reference for the two Appleseed days is being posted here instead of in the article, because the external link contains a banner ad that is meant to confuse the reader into thinking it is a Windows system message. Please ignore the "You have won the Prize" ad. --Blainster 22:44, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Commercial website reference question

I am copying the converation below from my and 66.38.39.28's Talk pages. The other user removed the reference from this sentence:

Nurseries offer the Johnny Appleseed tree as an immature apple tree for planting, with scions from the Algeo stock grafted on them.[1]

  1. ^ The Johnny Appleseed Tree Retrieved September 12, 2006 from http://www.historictrees.org/produ_ht/johnappl.htm

I think the ref should stay (I did not add it nor do I have any interest, financial or otherwise in the apple trees in question). What do you think?

[edit] Message from 66.38.39.28

I removed the commercial link from this page which I see you have reverted. There is no unique detailed information as this reference refers to. Only a commercial page selling apple trees. My thoughts are a better non-commercial reference should be found for this article and this one removed. What you reverted only supports other come to wikipedia and spamming with commercial links. Seasoned editors should be setting an example here. 66.38.39.28 13:40, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reply from Ruhrfisch

Thanks for your message about my reversion of your edit to Johnny Appleseed. I watch the article, but did not write it (I did some copyedits on it once for a friend). According to Wikipedia's verifiablity policy, all facts in articles should be referenced. Since the article states the Johnny Appleseed apple trees are commerically available, this needs a reference. If the reference is removed, the statement it supports should be removed too.

On another note, I do not know of any policy prohibiting references to commercial websites on Wikipedia (if you do, could you give me the link please?). I searched for other suppliers of such trees on Google and did not find any obvious ones in the first 20 or so hits. It is not like the article says please buy trees from this firm. Someone would have to read the whole article and follow the reference link to see this commercial website.

Since Wikipedia is supposed to work by consensus, I will raise this issue at Talk:Johnny Appleseed. I will paste in our discussion so far. You are welcome to add to the talk page and make your case. Sound good? Yours, Ruhrfisch 03:32, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Copyvio material removed

I just removed WP:Copyvio material copied directly (cut and paste) from here on the Chapman family home in Longmeadow, MA. It is interesting and probably worthy of inclusion, but I am not enough of an expert on JA to jusge if it merits inclusion here. Could someone who knows more about him decide this please? Thanks, Ruhrfisch 20:31, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

  • I removed See also, Jonathan (apple) as there is no obvious connection between the two. Ruhrfisch 13:52, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Interesting phrase

The first paragraph says that Johnny Appleseed was a "missionary for poop in the Church of the New Jerusalem"

Is this a technical term?

23:12, 25 January 2007 (UTC) 203.97.107.139 23:12, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Possibly misleading phrasing?

The article states that Johnny Appleseed was a "missionary for the Church of the New Jerusalem, founded by Emanuel Swedenborg". While it is true that the Church of the New Jerusalem is based on books written by Swedenborg, the Swedenborgianism page states that "[Swedenborg] himself never tried to establish an organization". Would a better phrasing be "the Church of the New Jerusalem, based on the theological writings of Emanuel Swedenborg"?

[edit] iPhone relevance

I have removed this sentence just now (and have removed something similar before): "Apple Inc. recently begin to use his name in demonstration video of the iPhone, possibly as a reference." I do not think this is that relevant to the article, but wanted to see what others thought. I have also removed a reference in the past to Lisa playing "Connie Appleseed" in a Simpsons episode. These just don't seem encyclopdic to me - what do others think? Ruhrfisch ><>°° 17:22, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I would tend to agree that a commercial campaign -- unless IT becomes a subject of serious discussion -- does not deserve mention here. However, what it does speak to is the centrality of the concept of "apple" in English-languge discourse. Apple is the quintessential fruit. The legend of Johnny would not have grown had he been Johnny Apricotpit. See Common Ground's Apple Day for a modern festival linked to this notion of apple as all that is good. Perhaps you could work in wording along these lines? BrainyBabe 11:24, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
This seems reasobnable, but I do not know a reference to cite for this and without one, it seems to be original research.Do you have a ref or refs for this? Thanks, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 01:46, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NOFX

There is a song by the well-known punk band NOFX about this Man, it is itself called "Johnny Appleseed". Is that relevant? 84.175.31.253 00:17, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

  • The NOFX article does not mention this song, so I would say no. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 10:39, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] horse nonsense

The idea he bought old horses then a couple of acres and left them to fend for themselves through winter, wild animals, etc. is ridiculous but this article is so far from a encyclopedia level I left it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.118.109.180 (talk) 17:26, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:JohnnyAppleseed1948.jpg

Image:JohnnyAppleseed1948.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 22:23, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Link for the blind and visually impaired

I am 20 years old and blind. I am interested in adding relevant items to wiki that help the blind "visualize" and grasp the subjects at hand. I love the tradition of oral storytelling. I have added a link to a radio story by The American Storyteller. --Trgwilson (talk) 20:42, 17 February 2008 (UTC)